Israel- What is up with these folks?

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Clearly you missed the irony of the statement, "It's written into their 'constitution.’”

Israel doesn't have a constitution. It has instead a number of 'Basic Laws'.

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The point wasn’t missed at all. You attempted to imply that Israeli Arabs weren’t equal to Israeli Jews by legal definition – a point that was soundly disproven. Following that, you fell back upon a poorly supported argument about a theorized unofficial policy. It’s all perfectly clear.

Regarding Israel’s lack of a written constitution or its particular relevance to the discussion at hand, I’m a bit confused. Its use of what is usually defined as an unwritten constitution is identical to other democratic states like The United Kingdom and New Zealand – who also lack a single, formally codified document upon which to base their laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._constitutions
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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

What's this? "Even the article you posted a link to is weak in that its author is complaining that Arab political freedoms are being curtailed because they can’t dispute the essentially democratic and Jewish nature of the state of Israel."

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You have a habit of ignoring salient points whilst clinging on to irrelevant ones.

The question was asked, "How can a state that defines itself as essentially Jewish also characterize itself as a democracy when it has a sizable non-Jewish minority?"

It's weak in your eyes because you wish it to be so.

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So far as “ignoring salient points whilst clinging on to irrelevant ones” is concerned, you are projecting. Your argument is weak because you have been singularly unable to support it, let alone refute my initial point. Here, let me prove it again:

Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process. Unlike Jewish citizens, they cannot be drafted into the Israeli army, but they may serve voluntarily. There are currently nine Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 17th Knesset out of a total of 120 seats, and there is one Arab judge, Justice Salim Jubran, sitting in the Supreme Court of Israel. Ariel Sharon's 2001 cabinet included one Israeli Arab minister, Salah Tarif, and in March 2005, Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior. Arabic is one of Israel's official languages

Once again, this firmly proves my assertion that “Arab citizens of Israel . . . have more rights and greater representation in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime.” It also, reaffirms the democratic nature of Israel, which handily disproves your point, yet again.
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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

"This is why the Europeans (particularly the French and British) and Japanese have worked with the US to shore up so many Middle Eastern regimes."

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No argument from me there. In doing so, have created a veritable Hornet's nest.

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So, you’ve changed your original position then:

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

It is entirely possible that if the Arab countries were not kept in a constant stae of turmoil by certain western countries in cahoots with 'Israel', they could use their resources elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Israel has a policy of misinformation. I know, for instance, that when a bus load of soldiers is blown up in Israel, it is immediately reported as a bus load of civilians.
Even if the true report comes out later, the damage has already been done.
I've been to Israel. I've sat in restaurant where boys in civilian clothes sit talking to their girlfriends, with rifles hanging from their shoulders.

So, who are the civilians and who are the soldiers.

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So far as misinformation and civilian casualties are concerned, the record is clear – and it doesn’t favor the Arab cause. Interesting examples include decisions by Hamas to intentionally choose heavily trafficked civilian areas as sites from which to launch rocket and mortar attacks, meaning that an inevitable Israeli response will risk higher civilian casualties (which are used as tools to garner support). During the Intifada, the PLO used to employ a similar trick. It involved organizing children to go out and throw stones at Israeli vehicles. Not surprisingly, that would be followed by snipers firing upon Israeli troops from buildings directly behind the children – the idea being to encourage Israeli soldiers to fire into the crowd. We could discuss the fact that Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have used child suicide bombers (and that comes from the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, not Israel).

In a conflict involving “militias” and large numbers of reserves (in Israel’s case), the line between civilians and combatants can get blurry. Mistakes will occur, no matter what the intention of the respective combatants. However, the intentional targeting of civilian concentrations by groups like Fatah – and Hamas in particular – are well documented by sources other than the Israeli government. There can be no reasonable doubt as to the intentional nature of this campaign.
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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Israel tried to con us by telling us the Arabs target children, whilst they didn't.

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Remember when I mentioned your “selective, ahistorical interpretation of the facts”? Well, you’ve just demonstrated it in a serious way. Here are just a few incidents, which have been corroborated by sources outside of the Israeli government:

March 5, 2003
A Palestinian suicide bomber strikes on a bus en route to Haifa University.
17 murdered, most of them teenagers. 53 injured.

Nov. 21, 2002
A Palestinian suicide bomber detonates on a commuter bus during morning rush hour in Jerusalem.
11 murdered, many of them schoolchildren. More than 50 injured.

June 18-19, 2002
A Palestinian suicide bomber strikes on a rush-hour bus in Jerusalem, carrying many children on their way to school.
19 murdered. 74 injured - 6 seriously.

June 1, 2001 - The attack comes days after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced a unilateral Israeli cease-fire.
A Palestinian suicide bomber attacks a Tel Aviv beachside disco filled with teenaged immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
21 murdered. More than 100 injured.
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Originally Posted by blackandblue

I don't remember posing any questions about a Palestinian homeland.

Maybe you'd like to pinpoint that for me.

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Sure. Here you go:

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population"

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If those figures are correct, could that be something to do with the fact that Jordan absorbed a substantial amount of the people fleeing from Israeli terrorism?

Again, look at the facts;
"Since the return of over 300,000 Palestinians from Kuwait in 1991, between 45% and 70% of all Jordanians are Palestinians from the West Bank. Although Palestinians suffer from discrimination and a large number still live in camps, Jordan has granted full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendents."
"About 3 million persons registered as Palestinian refugees and displaced persons reside in Jordan, most as citizens."

So what is Quinn's point?

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Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you ask a question in response to my original point. I mean, seriously, you even used a “question” mark.
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Originally Posted by blackandblue

[I know that you would like to regard this as a debate won.

But consider this, I have begun from a point of refuting your statements.

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A) You have failed to disprove or even compromise so much as one of my original points;
B) Your points, which were made in an attempt to undermine my own, have, in turn, been handily disproven (you’ve actually managed to contradict yourself).

As such, by even the most forgiving of standards – you have clearly lost. With all due respect, you and I are done.

-Quinn

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Maybe you'd like to read some of them....

Israel - Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation 1994

Adopted on: 9 March 1994 }
{ ICL Document Status: 9 March 1994 }

Section 1 Basic principles
Basic human rights in Israel are based on the recognition of the value of the human being, and the sanctity of his life and his freedom, and these will be respected in the spirit of the principles of the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel (5718-1948).

Section 2 Purpose
The purpose of this Basic Law is to uphold the freedom of occupation, in order to anchor the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state in a Basic Law.

Section 3 Freedom of occupation
Every Israel national or resident has the right to engage in any occupation, profession or trade.

Section 4 Violation of freedom
There shall be no violation of the freedom of occupation except by a law that accords with the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose and to an extent no greater than required, or by such a law enacted with explicit authorization therein.

Section 5 Application
All governmental authorities are bound to respect the freedom of occupation of all Israel nationals and residents.

Section 6 Stability
This Basic Law cannot be varied, suspended or made subject to conditions by emergency regulations.

Section 7 Entrenchment
This Basic Law shall not be varied except by a Basic Law passed by a majority of the members of the Knesset.

Section 8 Validity of exceptional laws
The provisions of any law which are inconsistent with the freedom of occupation shall remain in effect, even if it does not conform with Section 4, if it is included in a law adopted by a majority of the Knesset with the explicit comment that it is valid despite the provisions of this Basic Law; such a law shall remain in effect for four years from the date of its commencement, unless an earlier date is fixed.

Section 9 Repeal
The Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (5752 - 1992) is hereby repealed.

Section 10 Provisional measure
The provisions of any enactment in force prior to the commencement of this Basic Law or the Basic Law repealed in Section 9, [which are inconsistent with its provisions] shall remain in effect no longer than two years from the date of commencement of this Basic Law, unless repealed sooner; however, such provisions shall be construed in the spirit of the provisions of this Basic Law.

I'll alow you to draw your own conclusions.

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First of all, I am confused by this citation, as it doesn't seem to jive with the rest of your argument. In fact, it completely NEGATES your argument, which is, as I understand, that Israeli-Arabs are treated as second-class citizens (a sort of Middle Eastern version of "Jim Crow," similar to the way other countries in the Middle East treat their female citizens). I can only assume that you think that Section Nine is meant to repeal Sections One through Eight; well, I'm sorry to inform that you are mistaken.

Section Nine only repeals the previous version (i.e., the 1992 version) of the "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation." Section Nine does NOT refer to ANY part of the 1994 version of the aforementioned document.

I mean no offense; it is an easy mistake to make, given the structure of the document. However, before you make such wide ranging statements, you would be well advised to actually RESEARCH the subject in question, not just cut-and-paste information without having made sure that you actually UNDERSTAND what it contains.

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Originally Posted by dav1313

Everyone seems to miss the big underlying issue in the palestinian isreali conflict. It's unemployment. This goes for pretty much the entire islam v west conflict. the economies in arab countries are shit, unemployment runs over 25 percent and up to 70 percent . Young males are prone to violence and attracted to extreme groups when they are otherwise unoccupied., just look at germany in the 1930's. the arabs have no jobs, no prospect of a job or future and so they are understandably angry. the hard line clerics give them a purpose and something to look foward to, (paradise). people who have jobs arent throwing rocks or burning american flags.

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And these retards blame the WEST and Israel? Those fucking clerics and Princes own the majority of the world's oil reserves. Why the fuck are they unemployed, because the rulers of their countries are greedy beyond belief. Stop looking to the west and Israel to vent your frustration and take a hard look at your fellow arabs, who have kept you in check since the beginning of time. The rulers of your countries are far more richer than most western magnates. Screw paridise, it's a fairy tale. Use the fucking brains God/Allah gave you! Stop throwing rocks at people who could give two shits about you and focus on your brethern who have their foot on your head and are pissing in your ear. :banghead

The following links provide a pretty accurate analysis of this current crisis that unfortunately looks 2 b spiraling n2 a much wider conflict that i believe is Israel's real intent as i intimated in my original post. 8) 8)

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publ...nter_997.shtml

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ww3...anon_psyop.htm

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Originally Posted by twowaybro

The following links provide a pretty accurate analysis of this current crisis that unfortunately looks 2 b spiraling n2 a much wider conflict that i believe is Israel's real intent as i intimated in my original post. 8) 8)

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publ...nter_997.shtml

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ww3...anon_psyop.htm

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twowaybro, I see that one of the sources that you cite claims that 9/11 was perpetrated by the US government—a claim that I feel is just as ludricrous and insulting as saying that the Holocaust never happened...or do you believe that too? Facts don't seem to be very important to you when it comes to forming your opinions. You disgust me.

The thing about a conspiracy theory is that it can neither be confirmed nor denied. Thus, it requires no proof. In fact, that very same lack of evidence can be — and sometimes is — profferred up as evidence(e.g., "There isn't any evidence because it was covered up"). With this pretzel logic, the most fantastical and absurd theories can be defended with the simple phrase: "That's what they want you to think."

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Originally Posted by chefmike

I still find it hard to believe that this post by J was deleted because a certain someone deemed it racist, as was his thread regarding the deletion..I think it's more a matter of a certain person/or person's sour grapes regarding things said in an obviously tongue-in-cheek thread on this forum in the past... :wink:

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=7349&start=0

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If you're referring to me, Chef you can fuck right off. I've told you I'm more than willing to stand up for myself and those jokes and labels that he put should have been deleted. I've seen black jokes deleted from this forum for exactly the same reason and if you're going to have a standard than have the standard for all.
I don't need to shit stir and bring things up from months ago back into it - I refrained from commenting when J made his big re-entrance as it's nothing to do with me and I had no reason to comment on his posts, until he once again had to open his elitest mouth and start spouting off against one group in a vain attempt at humour.
I've stated it before, that this forum needs moderating and needs to have some standards to abide by otherwise it becomes a free for all.

seanchai

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Originally Posted by Quinn

The United Kingdom and New Zealand – who also lack a single, formally codified document upon which to base their laws.


-Quinn

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Incorrect. The United Kingdom does have a constitution-- it is the Treaty of Union of 1707, which created the entity and defined the parameters under which its laws would be, and are, framed. This error is commonly made because England does not have a constitution (for that matter neither does Scotland.) But the UK does.

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Originally Posted by chefmike

Yes, but the origins of the vendetta against J began here...

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=7349&start=0

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In which thread we find this telling little gem:

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Originally Posted by chefmike

(PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:10 pm)
You're obviously a racist just like myself and Quinn.

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Get away.

Whichever mod zapped J's poisonous racist diatribe gets a huge vote of thanks from me. Furthermore it is a very unusual forum where contributors are allowed to start threads deliberately attacking the mods. Zapping his "Why was my hate post zapped" thread too was quite right. Plenty of boards would have simply slung him out for his cheek, end of story.

I see a lot of protest from a few loudmouths bitching about a mod that has decided to flex some muscles. Well, I just want that mod to know this is one loudmouth that agrees with him or her. I didn't ask for it, I don't have the power to do it, but it's way past time.

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Originally Posted by MacShreach

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Originally Posted by chefmike

Yes, but the origins of the vendetta against J began here...

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=7349&start=0

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In which thread we find this telling little gem:

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Originally Posted by chefmike

(PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:10 pm)
You're obviously a racist just like myself and Quinn.

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Get away.

Whichever mod zapped J's poisionous racist diatribe gets a huge vote of thanks from me. Furthermore it is a very unusual forum where contributors are allowed to start threads deliberately attacking the mods. Zapping his "Why was my hate post zapped" thread too was quite right. Plenty of boards would have simply slung him out for his cheek, end of story.

I see a lot of protest from a few loudmouths bitching about a mod that has decided to flex some muscles. Well, I just want that mod to know this is one loudmouth that agrees with him or her. I didn't ask for it, I don't have the power to do it, but it's way past time.

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Total agreement here!