Thoughts on Obama SO FAR?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by goku

For example, if you make 52k in germany, they are gonna take 42% of your income off the top for taxes. Then the sales tax there is 19% for items that are not considered food. Think about that for a moment, and think about the fact that you would be paying 24% taxes here, and only 7-8.5% sales tax depending where you live. All you get in return is health care, for your extra layout in cash. I don't know about you, but I could buy the best healthcare policy known to man for an extra 900 a month.

---

The quality of life for the average German IMO is much higher than it is in the U.S.
Healthcare AND free education through college undergrad and postgrad.

Yeah, the economic collapse started under Clinton, but Dubya poured gasoline of the fire by giving U.S. corporations tax incentives to relocate their manufacturing overseas and having the Fed lowering the funds rate to 1.75% and the key interest rate to 1%, making easy credit available to everyone.

But if we're gonna say who deserves the most blame, Dubya or Clinton, it's definitely the Clinton administration that set the table for this mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

The quality of life for the average German IMO is much higher than it is in the U.S.
Healthcare AND free education through college undergrad and postgrad.

Yeah, the economic collapse started under Clinton, but Dubya poured gasoline of the fire by giving U.S. corporations tax incentives to relocate their manufacturing overseas and having the Fed lowering the funds rate to 1.75% and the key interest rate to 1%, making easy credit available to everyone.

But if we're gonna say who deserves the most blame, Dubya or Clinton, it's definitely the Clinton administration that set the table for this mess.

---

Who told you that everything was free there? Most colleges are state funded, but the admissions qualifications for that are very difficult. There are still many schools that charge tuition, and there are others fees that have to be paid. Over there, you are just ass out if you are a mediocre student.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

The quality of life for the average German IMO is much higher than it is in the U.S.
Healthcare AND free education through college undergrad and postgrad.

Yeah, the economic collapse started under Clinton, but Dubya poured gasoline of the fire by giving U.S. corporations tax incentives to relocate their manufacturing overseas and having the Fed lowering the funds rate to 1.75% and the key interest rate to 1%, making easy credit available to everyone.

But if we're gonna say who deserves the most blame, Dubya or Clinton, it's definitely the Clinton administration that set the table for this mess.

---

I agree 100%. How do you think this all ends?

Personally, I think we're going to have a period like Japan in '91 when their asset prices collapsed, followed by their stock market crash and a huge debt crisis.

It took Japan nearly ten years for their economy to recover, commonly referred to as the 'Lost Decade'.

IMO it will be more than two Presidential terms before the economy rebounds.
If we don't find a way to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S., I don't know if we ever fully recover.

There are scary parallels to what we are currently experiencing now and what occurred to Japan in the 1990s.

The GOP is talking tough, but really, privately, I bet they don't wanna take this mess on in 2013 and have this crap sandwich shoved down their throats.

There is no 'quick fix'.

However, I keep forgetting that U.S. businesses and corporations are sitting on billions
( or is it TRILLIONS?) of dollars in assets they refuse to invest in jobs and infrastructure, apparently because they 'fear' Obama's economic direction.

If they began to spend this capital, then yeah, a full recovery could happen in about 5 years.

Maybe they're waiting until a POTUS they like, (see Republican), gets voted into office.lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

Personally, I think we're going to have a period like Japan in '91 when their asset prices collapsed, followed by their stock market crash and a huge debt crisis.

It took Japan nearly ten years for their economy to recover, commonly referred to as the 'Lost Decade'.

IMO it will be more than two Presidential terms before the economy rebounds.
If we don't find a way to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S., I don't know if we ever fully recover.

There are scary parallels to what we are currently experiencing now and what occurred to Japan in the 1990s.

The GOP is talking tough, but really, privately, I bet they don't wanna take this mess on in 2013 and have this crap sandwich shoved down their throats.

There is no 'quick fix'.

However, I keep forgetting that U.S. businesses and corporations are sitting on billions
( or is it TRILLIONS?) of dollars in assets they refuse to invest in jobs and infrastructure, apparently because they 'fear' Obama's economic direction.

If they began to spend this capital, then yeah, a full recovery could happen in about 5 years.

Maybe they're waiting until a POTUS they like, (see Republican), gets voted into office.lol

---

The difference though is that Japan remained a strong exporter during their lost decade. The US quality of life is linked to the availability of cheap consumer goods, which is made possible by our credit. The fact that we still have a AAA bond rating proves only how flawed the rating system is. The probability of a sovereign debit default is 100%. I think the US in 10 years will look a lot like Argentina.

I haven't read this whole thread and I'm quite ambivalent to what Obama has/has not done, but I find it funny that some are talking about intelligence. You guys do realize that the American voter overwhelmingly does not vote for academicians, but "guys they can have a beer with"---- that's part of our problem. A truly smart guy will never get elected, unless he's from the south/has good ol' country boy roots.

He has done a good job so far. Not perfect but, given the disastrous situation he walked into, thanks W, things are on the right track. I do wish he would stop with all the attempts at bipartisanship, the right will never accept him so he should forget about trying to please them and get on to the business of cleaning up Bush's mess and getting this country back on track.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

'Despicable','back stabbing sellout','disgrace', etc..??
For all of you who decided to get 'interested' in politics because of BHO, please stay involved and informed when the re-thugs get back into office and hold them under the same microscope.

---

I'm already quite beyond the point of accepting the false left-right paradigm that you seem to be stuck in intellectually, but thanks for the advice, pedestrian though it may be. My advice is that you learn the words tu quoque fallacy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmashysmashY

I'm already quite beyond the point of accepting the false left-right paradigm that you seem to be stuck in intellectually, but thanks for the advice, pedestrian though it may be. My advice is that you learn the words tu quoque fallacy.

---

I think the quote, you cited was mixed up with another quote. I looked up "tu quoque". But who are you saying is using these argument. And if the think the poster is stuck in a left-right paradigm, what do you think about the Limbaugh's, the Becks, and others who make livings based on this?

I do believe that there is not that much difference between the political parties, but some of that comes from the influence of lobbiests, who have direct access to our legislators.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yodajazz

I think the quote, you cited was mixed up with another quote. I looked up "tu quoque". But who are you saying is using these argument. And if the think the poster is stuck in a left-right paradigm, what do you think about the Limbaugh's, the Becks, and others who make livings based on this?

I do believe that there is not that much difference between the political parties, but some of that comes from the influence of lobbiests, who have direct access to our legislators.

---

What I think about those people has nothing to do with this subject and never having watched those programs, I don't know enough about them to comment on that even if I was inclined.

What he said was a fallacy of relevance because it's not an attempt to state premises that prove or disprove a conclusion, but instead appeal to one's emotions.

If I claim that the president has committed some offense and you reply by injecting into the discussion the fact that others have as well, which is exactly what he did, then it's merely a ploy. You cannot justify or defend one's wrong-doing by claiming that an opponent has committed a similar offense. Your crimes are not canceled out by the crimes of others unless we are to accept the notion that two wrongs make a right.

If that's your position then guard it, but the rationale behind it is illogical. Now if you're saying I'm wrong that's different. I very well could be. Maybe the president has not betrayed his constituency in favor of corporate interests, but no one seems to be making that argument.