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Thanks Sarah. I was gnashing my teeth so much that I couldn't think of anything but more insults. You saved me from my own rashness.
There's no direct tuition credits? Just curious. That used to be part of the GI bill, but I don't know if it is anymore. It's one of my own personal tweaks, but it bothers me that everything is done in the form of taxes nowadays.
BTW: I still think the internet really is a big truck.
Well, the original plan's terminology (albeit most likely in error) would be fairly frightful to some people. It sure sounded like civil service conscription in the original versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by hippifried
Requiring all students, no exceptions, to work 100 hours doing civil service jobs that only pay $10/hr is a hard sell, even if its tax free, to people who either don't need to work, or are already working jobs that pay above that. For instance this girl I knew the first semester of college was a bar tender and easily made 30 an hour when including tips... to tell an already time-pressed student to sacrifice time AND money they desperately need to volunteer for 100 hours a year, "just because the president says so" will come off as abrasive.
The time can be a bigger issue than the money for some majors, I briefly went for an edu cert (teaching cert) and although this varies with the state, basically they want you to go to a k-12 classroom to "observe" public schooling,* 20 hours of observation time PER edu course, which must be completed before completing each edu course during the semester... and then after you've done something in the neighborhood of 200 hours of that unpaid time "observing," they have you student teach (for hundreds of hours of unpaid "experience"). So figure a normal courseload of 15 to 18 credit hours, 20-40 hours per semester of "observation" (depending on how many EDU courses you take at once), 5-15 hours a week of work studies for the financial aid package, say 5-hours a week doing assignments/papers, 5-15 hours a week doing your normal job (be it retail, sales, bartending etc), 5 hours/day sleeping... and time starts to get tight real fast even without 100 hours/year of civil service.
When I started college I was doing no less than 24 credit hour course loads, and ultimately said "fuck this" and dropped both the edu cert, and the work studies in my financial aid package (opted to use private student loans to makeup what I lost by refusing the work study "aid") just to have enough time for everything else, and I had no social life to speak of at the time.
Basically, I was paying to have more time by refusing those work studies.
The downside to Obama's plan, as I see it:
1- We have no idea what such a proposed plan would be like, in practice. The nice thing about student employment is its usually fairly responsibility free, fairly free from thinking, and fairly easy to find. Pay might not be great, but its usually easy enough to find short term employment as a student so if an employer treats you like shit, you can always say "fuck off" and go find someone else. The problem is you can't do that if you're being forced to work for a specific employer (in this case, the feds) against your will (or because its financially impossible to refuse that employment). I have heard some people say (I don't know first hand) that the existing volunteer for pay government groups like the peace corps are very macho-oriented and not very gay-friendly, nor are they trans-friendly. Some people would have legitimate reasons not to go into the peacecorps... even if they'll aid-dependent, cash strapped college students.
2- Even if its voluntary, the plan as I understand it is nothing more than a reformed & expanded version of existing "work studies." Since it would be part of the aid packages, those who object to the work (whatever type of work it is) for whatever reason (be it time limitations, money issues, health problems, etc) would have to go further into debt to be able to turn down the aid. I would have become another 4 grand per year in debt in order to just be able to say "sorry, but I just don't have the actual time to spend 50 hours per semester doing labor for the president." That's 16 grand more debt for someone who (for whatever reason) must turn down the so-called aid.
The way I see it, Obama is looking at the billions we spend a year in financial aid so people can attend colleges, and he's seeing it as if the students are getting something for nothing. They're getting all this financial aid to help pay their way threw school, but they're not contributing much in the way of tangible "product or service." The point he's missing, is that in order to be competitive as a country we NEED college graduates, we need teachers, scientists, engineers and so on- and that financial aid is supposed to be an investment which will be paid back by college grads once they find "real work" and start paying more in taxes.
As far as I know, nothing has yet changed, and tuition credits are still being handled the way the GI bill always has. The reason for this is because they're TUITION credits. They're only supposed to be used for attending schools (or a few other approved uses). They can't control how the money is spent if they just give everyone who qualifies a government check... and its in their best interest NOT to just pay it out like that, because most people who qualify for the program never use it- which keeps the fund from being depleted. The amount the GI bill pays out keeps increasing, because most people who qualify never take anything out of the fund. The recent change, that I've heard, is now the military has toyed with expanding the GI bill to pay out money for business ventures. Do your time, and you can take out just as much and put it into college OR starting your own business (provided your business plan gets approved).Quote:
There's no direct tuition credits? Just curious. That used to be part of the GI bill, but I don't know if it is anymore. It's one of my own personal tweaks, but it bothers me that everything is done in the form of taxes nowadays.
I really don't know if this civil service plan of Obama's will work the same way or not. He has been saying tax credit, not tuition credit. IF he means tuition credits, then he really dodged a bullet by rephrasing his original version of the plan. So many Americans NEVER attend college, it would be quite a bit draconian to REQUIRE they work 50 to 100 hours per year during half of k-12, for money they'd never be able to claim.. or worse, money that will end up going to the college bound middle class instead of the poor who have no college aspirations (as the GI bill currently operates). Even for people who plan to go on to college, say they do all the volunteer work they're eligible and find that they're not going to go to college... does that mean all that money they earned they'll never see? Hopefully by tax credit he means a simple gov-check payout, so it doesn't matter if people end up not going on to college later.
The other concern I have is that what most students need in the short term is cash for textbooks, gas, clothing, food, etc. If this aid is just a big check that goes straight to the school, then students are losing 50 hours per semester that they would be working for cash, so they'll just end up INCREASING their private student loans to cover the stuff (textbooks, food, gas etc) that they would have been able to afford before using their private market jobs. And most likely, the corrupt big businesses known as universities would simply turn around and raise the tuition by 4 grand a year, making the whole thing pointless.
But, since the details aren't hammered out by any stretch of the imagination, it would be unfair to criticize a plan that doesn't yet exist for such avoidable glitches.
* "Observation." What they really meant here was that the teacher of the classroom you'd be "observing" was the observer. Although they made it look like you were going to sit in a corner to take notes on the public schooling experience, it was all lies. The college went so far as to giving the school a flier a head of time basically instructing the school to use the edu major as if they're there for student teaching. You would be required to therefore spend 20 hours student teaching per edu course, but they couldn't call it that because that would make the school liable if you said or did something stupid due to a lack of experience as a teacher... so they'd to cover their asses would say that the edu major is there to watch and find "what to do" so they'll have the experience to be a good & safe student teacher 3 years down the road...needless to say I was left more than a bit jaded by the whole thing.
Well, you're wrong. It's not a big truck, it's a series of tubes. Like this one (450px-6SN7russ.JPG). When assembled into The Internet, it's basically a larger version of that giant fire-hazard Spock created in that one episode where they got trapped in the 1950's.Quote:
BTW: I still think the internet really is a big truck.
Which IMO is one of the best episodes - a real classic!Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahG
I really don't see the confusion. When you sign up at myspace or porn central, there's some fields with an asterisk & there's a notation that says those fields are "MANDATORY". The word doesn't equate to slavery, even in law. You're compelled to do specific things in order to achieve specific goals. If you want the credit, a minimum number of service hours are "MANDATORY".
This isn't reaction to wording on the government website. It's fear mongering by reactionaries in the fringes of the blogosphere. Then it's spread to places like this by the terminally gullible. The parrots aren't really lying. They just don't know what they're talking about because they're parrots. For example: How long was Mancow shrieking about how torture was no big deal before his 6 second stint on the waterboard? Same difference. It's just loudmouthed wannabe entertainers trying to drum up people to pay attention to them so they can sell ads.
So now the Republicans have recruited the Birchers for source material. Curiouser & curiouser.
This program is just an expansive bolstering of the Americorps program. That was supposed to be the peace corps at home. Clinton could never get funding for it. Bush expanded it into the "private sector" by bringing in & funding faith based organizations. Obama's looking to beef it up with philanthropic organizations from all over.
This isn't internship for credit hours as far as I understand it. The general object is to get things done at minimal cost while encouraging higher education, but I don't think educational intent is a prerequisite. Tuition tax credits are an incentive to draw young energetic people into the program, but it's not really an education program per se'. It's about getting people organized, using private philanthropy, community or issue organizations, & the government as a standardized central clearing house bringing projects & volunteers together. It's complex & ambitious. We'll see. There's no requirement to join the program or perform community service in order to further one's education. The options you have now aren't going away, but the program can expedite the process. Like all government aid programs, you can take it or leave it. It all depends on how much you want that incentive.
These ideas have been around for decades. We already have experience with programs of this sort. The GI bill for instance. The problem is in the mindset. We've got multiple generations of Americans who've never conceived of "service" outside of the military. When someone brings up the idea of civilian service at home, all the cold war rhetoric comes spewing forth like a busted sewer main. The ideological rancor is disgustingly stupid. We're the most powerful nation the world has ever seen. Yet in the land of free expression, so many Americans are scared to death of buzz words. What's up with that?
Now Nicky Tesla has his place in history, & the internet is totally tubular for sure, but we have Freddy Cannon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HgQ8YXrmk
Apples to oranges. You don't have to be a member of myspace, or porn central.Quote:
Originally Posted by hippifried
The original language on the change.gov website simply put stated that students starting in middle school would be REQUIRED to do labor for the government in exchange for "tax credits."
Not "students wanting tax credits will have to do labor under this program."
There's a huge difference there, as described one way its a plan of civil service conscription of our student populations, as described the other way its a plan of voluntary civil service in exchange for tax/tuition credits.
I don't believe the intention was ever to create a civil service conscription plan, as far as what I think, I think it was simply some peon being given the task of writing the change.gov description of the plan, and doing a piss poor job of it.
But it's not entirely fear mongering, there can be disastrous consequences when politicians approve proposals or bills without taking the time to READ them!Quote:
This isn't reaction to wording on the government website. It's fear mongering by reactionaries in the fringes of the blogosphere. Then it's spread to places like this by the terminally gullible. The parrots aren't really lying. They just don't know what they're talking about because they're parrots.
Just look at the chaos and problems that occurred back when congress tried to "fix" the senior prescription drug plan under social security.
Reality is that we have more politicians than statesmen, and of those politicians- a good chunk of them have no problem passing poorly written, unclear, counter productive legislation... and when that happens, who knows what the unintended consequences of said bills could be. I honestly believe that without the spin & fear mongering, our incompetent politicians on the hill would eventually accidentally pass a piece of legislation doing something utterly stupid & crazy (for instance, accidentally making a voluntary service plan a conscription service plan).
I'll call your "Transistor Sister" and raise with a twisted transistor.Quote:
Now Nicky Tesla has his place in history, & the internet is totally tubular for sure, but we have Freddy Cannon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HgQ8YXrmk
Apples & oranges are both fruit. They have a lot more in common than this mountain of bullshit & the molehill it was created from.
Sorry, but I just can't buy the idea that the general public is stupid enough to panic over this, or even get confused. There may have been some sloppiness in the language at first, but it's not like he hasn't been talking about this incessantly for over a year & a half. His detracters comb through everything, looking for something to nail him with. It doesn't take much to get the conspiracy nuts going. They're already running around in circles, telling everybody the sky is falling.
I don't buy that excuse for even half a second. They read the bills. Not only do they read them themselves, but every member of Congress has a staff of lawyers who read them. Each party has another pool of lawyers who read the bills. The lawyers from each party in each chamber of the Congress get together & argue every clause with the lawyers from the Whitehouse. Any politician who tells you that they don't know what's in a bill they're voting on is lying. If there's a remote possibility of a grain of truth to such a stupid statement, the only sensible retort is 'Get the fuck out of my Congress you incompetent boob!'.Quote:
But it's not entirely fear mongering, there can be disastrous consequences when politicians approve proposals or bills without taking the time to READ them!
It's all fear mongering. That's the simplest way to create misdirection while putting a hand in your wallet. The conspiracy nuts are just unwitting dupes in the plots they shriek about. None of the massive ripoff would be possible without the Alex Jonses & Glen Becks of the world. They're all politicians. Statesman is just a title we give lame duck politicians in their last elective stint before retirement.