Why can't people see me as a woman

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Originally Posted by T Oracle

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Originally Posted by Shining Star

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

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True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

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There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by T Oracle

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Originally Posted by Shining Star

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

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True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

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There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

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Identification documents routinely require information that is, as far as the state is concerned- are entirely irrelevant.

It's unreasonable to require identification documents list sex status, hair color, or eye color. Yet depending on what the document is, or who is issuing it- they will ask such pointless questions.

Take hair color, in addition to it being 100% irrelevant from a policy/procedural point of view, a vast portion of the population changes their hair color on a frequent basis due to having it dyed (to say nothing of people who go gray from old age). Hair color does not impact how the state treats a given person, nor is it a reliable way to identify someone.

Our country does not track gender in its documentation. It does track sex-status however. Yet even here, our documents are grossly inaccurate because they force bureaucratic clerks to pick between a mere two options: "male" or "female." Even if we agreed on how sex status was legally defined (which, we don't- many states have different interpretations on this point), this leaves no way to attribute a sex to, say, people with abnormal genitalia (i.e. hermaphrodites), or people with abnormal chromosomal makeup (xxx, xyx, xyy etc).. This shows the absurdity of the process, but as far as the idiot clerks are concerned- if there is a space on the form for it, it has to be answered even if it is of no value to the governments' ability to do their jobs/duties.

Somebody needs to clean house and remove the purposeless things governments track in their data mining. It's as simple as, if they need to know- they need to know. But if they don't need to know, there's no reason to invade peoples' privacy to add to the purposeless information stored in large governmental databases.

Wow, that's fucked up. It's cool that you resolved in yourself to never be at the affect of anyone else's narrow mindedness but, that lady was so fucking wrong for the way she treated you. Damn.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by T Oracle

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Originally Posted by Shining Star

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

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True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

---

There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

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Firstly can you stop acting like you know everything....Aisha


Jules Stay strong,its an inconvience of what is happening but look at the Long term of this happening-You will be able to stay in the US with your husband :peanutbutter ...Gender Sex defined by law is an etchy subject.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by T Oracle

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Originally Posted by Shining Star

Not wishing to pour yet more petrol on this fire, but:

There is a rather large school of thought that a birth certificate is just that, a document recording the true facts as they were known at the time. It is not a thing to be changed simply because events later in life cause such action to be wanted.

......

---

True facts as they were known at the time of my birth.....

---

There is a third way. I think it's time the birth certificate was no longer used as a definitive identification document. Think about it. A birth certificate is not a particularly fool proof hard to forge or fake document. They tell you where someone was born and certain facts. Not all of them even record a biological sex (i.e. in Indiana no sex is recorded... that could be a fourt way which would help TG's in the future).

If one has all their other papers in order and they all say female, the person looks, and acts like a female, etc. ...

This is one of those things that really isn't logical. Not reasonable at all.

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Identification documents routinely require information that is, as far as the state is concerned- are entirely irrelevant.

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Exactly. I think the pure logic of it is something that we could use to convince non trans people. Why does the govt. need to know what's in your pants? Why is it that a document which is not really a secure form of ID has such importance? Does big brother have a good reason for knowing this information?

The only reason I can see for using a BC as identification, and continuing to even record birth sex is simply because it's a tradition to do so. :-?

A Social Security Card and Drivers License that Identify who a person is NOW is what matters...not what they were a couple decades ago. Any ID that called Juliana, or anyone like her, a male would be totally ridiculous.

*Again*

For the purposes of immigration, passports and other federal benefits, the United States government requires TWO documents (among others).

The first to prove one is a United States citizen or otherwise entitled to possess a passport issued by this country.

Another document is required to prove one's ID.

The two are NOT the same in most cases.

By statue the only persons allowed to possess a US passport are those born in the United States (citizens), it possessions, territories, lands and dominions (for the most part). There are others such as those born to American citizen parents living abroad, but we're not on that right now.

A SS number or state issued ID does NOT prove country of birth, or citizenship. Passports existed for about one hundred years in the United States before the Social Security Administration was created, and probably equally as long or longer before the first drivers licenses were issued.

The United States government probably does not give that much of a hoot about what is "between one's legs", as it were, but it DOES care about consistency in documents presented when requesting benefits.

If one's name is different from what is on one's BC, the result would have been the same as above (rejection of application, hopefully minus the nasty attitude), unless one presented an official copy of a court order granting the name change, or same of marriage license if the change was due to marriage.

Gender as a variable has existed with government "databases" for along as governments have been keeping records, and serves many useful functions. Indeed in the case of criminal identity theft or impersonation, being able to prove one is not of the same gender as the suspect may be the only way to clear up the matter easily.

As also stated previously, the United States immigration system long has had a policy in place for dealing with transgender persons. If one presents the proper papers (a BC and proper medical records), a new passport will be issued.

If there is any fault, and one is not sure that is the proper word, with the above, is no one considered in the future there would be large numbers of "non-op" or very long term pre-op transgender persons.

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Originally Posted by juliana_dominguez

I had a talk with my immigration lawyers and they said that it's totally fine if I had my sex written as Male. Although, they should have acknowledged my court order, my lawyers said. All I have to do is when I am scheduled for my interview next time is make sure I have all the important documents with me. I also hope that the immigration officer that would be interviewing us is not gender biased, a transphobic person or someone who's just close minded and prejudice.

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May I ask what basis you are using to adjust your status to legal residency in CA?

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Originally Posted by GRANTdMAN

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Originally Posted by juliana_dominguez

I had a talk with my immigration lawyers and they said that it's totally fine if I had my sex written as Male. Although, they should have acknowledged my court order, my lawyers said. All I have to do is when I am scheduled for my interview next time is make sure I have all the important documents with me. I also hope that the immigration officer that would be interviewing us is not gender biased, a transphobic person or someone who's just close minded and prejudice.

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May I ask what basis you are using to adjust your status to legal residency in CA?

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Marriage based petition? Isn't transexual to man marriage considered as same sex marriage? Sorry, kind of thinking about my friend Anelle who married a Citizen in Sacramento but was denied adjustment of status

Because of the "Defense of Marriage Act", the United States federal government does not recongise "gay" marriages. Only marriages between and "man" and a "woman" are considered vaild for federal benefit purposes.

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Originally Posted by GRANTdMAN

Marriage based petition? Isn't transexual to man marriage considered as same sex marriage?

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That depends.

If the woman is a pre op transsexual and gets married in a state that
allows it, that would be deemed a same sex marriage, if she is post op
and has had her birth certificate amended that would constitute a
mariage between a man and a woman, as such the Defense of Marriage
Act (DOMA) does not apply to post op women.

As regards the point under discussion, marriage is a family law-based
concept and family law is governed by state law, not federal.

While immigration law is federal, the Citizenship and Immigration
Services looks to the law of the state where the marriage was entered
into to determine whether the marriage is valid.

Thus in the states where a woman is able to have her birth certificate
amended to be congruent with her gender after GRS, and she is
permitted by that state to marry, then the federal governmennt will
recognize the marriage.

As an aside the vast majority of states and nations allow the afore-
mentioned to occur.

This has been borne out in re Lovo-Lara, 23 I&N Dec. 746 (BIA 2005).
This was a case before the Board of Immigration Appeals which
adjuducated that post operative women were indeed women for
purposes of immigration and marriage.

Lovo-Lara was a post op transsexual in North Carolina, a state that allows
for the amending of birth certificates following GRS, and allows marriages
as well.

Another relevant case is re Widener, A95-347-685, 2004 WL 2375065
(BIA Sept. 21, 2004).

Esperanza Widener was born biologically male in the Philippines. She had
sex reassignment surgery in the Philippines and received a court order
there changing her sex and her name.

The Board of Immigration Appeals also ruled in her favor.

There are many other cases where the Citizenship and Immigration
Services has ruled in favor of post op women vis-a-vis marriage and
immigration.

However there has been no precedence set for allowing pre op or same
sex marriage to be allowed for immigration purposes at this point in time.