US Elections 2020

I slept early to watch the VP debate live from 2am here. If Harris edged Pence, bias aside, it may be because she is the more animated, deeply felt and expressive human of the two, owing to the restraint bordering on monotony of Pence’s way of speaking.

Both avoided answers to questions making sure they made points not relevant to the question, and while Harris, for all I know about her record as a Prosecutor and AG in California- not much- defended her record, Pence told outright nonsense about ISIS, COVID-19 and the economy- but Harris often failed to land decisive blows.

Pence criticised the state of the Federal stockpile of PPE left over from the Obama years, but Harris could have asked why in three years they never replenished it.

Pence criticised slow growth under eight years of the Obama Presidency, yet in the pre-Covid years rates of growth have not exceeded Obama’s. And not a word about trillions and trillions of dollars of debt!

The US played an important role in the defeat of ISIS, but so too did the Russians, the Syrians, and on the ground, the militias in Iraq organised by Qasem Suleimani, while a significant amount of ground fighting was done by the Kurds in Iraq, and particularly in Syria- Harris could have pointed this out, and added that when the fighting was over, the Americans stabbed the Kurds in the back to deal with Turkey.

Harris could have twisted the knife on China, pointing out that offshoring jobs from the US to Asia began when Reagan was President, that trade with China benefited many US corporations, that the President was shut out of that trade until 2017, that for all his attacks on trade with China, his daughter’s trade has been above criticism. She has made more money from China than Hunter Biden might have.

The knife could have gone in over the COVID-19 Task Force, arguing Pence from the start was sidelined by Jared Kushner- what, in fact, did Pence do these past seven months?

Harris was strong on health care, but could have battered Pence more to point out that after nearly four years, no replacement to the Affordable Care Act has emerged.

Harris could have listed all or key environmental regulations scrapped by the Administration, and failed to clarify if the Green New Deal is Biden/Harris policy.

When Pence accused Obama of spying on the Republican team in 2016, Harris could have pointed out this is a lie, that the campaign team was investigated because they broke the law, and added that Mueller identified eleven cases of obstruction of justice.

Lastly, where was the debate on culture regarding public monuments and the legacy of slavery, civil war and segregation in the US, and where was the debate on Education? There was none.

It was a step up from the Presidential debate, but so much more could have been achieved.

Donald-D.A.M.N-Trump was at it again yesterday making baseless claims about mail in ballots,even though it has been proven this is no evidence voter fraud by mail,and lashing out at Attorney Bill Barr,pressuring him to prosecute his political rivals,shows how desperate he is to hold on to power and knows he's losing in the polls,and is willing to use every underhanded tactic to get re-elected,including telling his enablers in the senate to focus on ramming through his supreme court nominee Amy Coney Barrett
and confirm her to the US Supreme Court before election day,so he challenge the results in court when he loses,because he thinks that the Supreme Court will rule in his favor.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I slept early to watch the VP debate live from 2am here. If Harris edged Pence, bias aside, it may be because she is the more animated, deeply felt and expressive human of the two, owing to the restraint bordering on monotony of Pence’s way of speaking.

Both avoided answers to questions making sure they made points not relevant to the question, and while Harris, for all I know about her record as a Prosecutor and AG in California- not much- defended her record, Pence told outright nonsense about ISIS, COVID-19 and the economy- but Harris often failed to land decisive blows.

Pence criticised the state of the Federal stockpile of PPE left over from the Obama years, but Harris could have asked why in three years they never replenished it.

Pence criticised slow growth under eight years of the Obama Presidency, yet in the pre-Covid years rates of growth have not exceeded Obama’s. And not a word about trillions and trillions of dollars of debt!

The US played an important role in the defeat of ISIS, but so too did the Russians, the Syrians, and on the ground, the militias in Iraq organised by Qasem Suleimani, while a significant amount of ground fighting was done by the Kurds in Iraq, and particularly in Syria- Harris could have pointed this out, and added that when the fighting was over, the Americans stabbed the Kurds in the back to deal with Turkey.

Harris could have twisted the knife on China, pointing out that offshoring jobs from the US to Asia began when Reagan was President, that trade with China benefited many US corporations, that the President was shut out of that trade until 2017, that for all his attacks on trade with China, his daughter’s trade has been above criticism. She has made more money from China than Hunter Biden might have.

The knife could have gone in over the COVID-19 Task Force, arguing Pence from the start was sidelined by Jared Kushner- what, in fact, did Pence do these past seven months?

Harris was strong on health care, but could have battered Pence more to point out that after nearly four years, no replacement to the Affordable Care Act has emerged.

Harris could have listed all or key environmental regulations scrapped by the Administration, and failed to clarify if the Green New Deal is Biden/Harris policy.

When Pence accused Obama of spying on the Republican team in 2016, Harris could have pointed out this is a lie, that the campaign team was investigated because they broke the law, and added that Mueller identified eleven cases of obstruction of justice.

Lastly, where was the debate on culture regarding public monuments and the legacy of slavery, civil war and segregation in the US, and where was the debate on Education? There was none.

It was a step up from the Presidential debate, but so much more could have been achieved.

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Completely agree that wednesday's vice presidential debate Mike Pence and Kamala Harris was a step up from the presidental debate,and so much more could have been achieved,and wasn't the trainwreck and dumpster fire that the presidential debate was.

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

Completely agree that wednesday's vice presidential debate Mike Pence and Kamala Harris was a step up from the presidental debate,and so much more could have been achieved,and wasn't the trainwreck and dumpster fire that the presidential debate was.

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The US is a divided society, and because it has been so for more than a hundred years, the divisions run deep -the question is whether or not the US, if it cannot be wholly united, can be healed of its poisonous wounds. The best you can hope for from Biden and Harris is a return to competent government, and a more caring attitude to the environment. For complex reasons the questions that have yet to be asked, let alone answered on the future of work and jobs, and because of Covid-19 the future of public health and indeed, the City, must shape the future, but can either Biden or Harris offer some idea of what the future will look like if they win the Presidency and Congress?

It seems to me that four more years of chaos and arrogance in the Presidency, and legislative backwardness in Congress will make a bad situation worse. And yet, the US has shown over the last 100 years that it can survive the worst that politics and economics produces; that it is flexible enough to incorporate immigrants and marginal social groups into the main body of society without diminishing the values and aspirations of the Constitution that a Revolution created.

The difference with the UK could not be more stark -for I feel that the UK is not just divided, but broken. Brexit has not united the UK behind a vision of independence from Europe, capable of maintaining its status as one of the richest countries in the world. It has broken the very idea of Union, with Northern Ireland gradually moving towards the realization that its future lies in a re-unification with the Irish Republic, and with independence for Scotland back on the agenda. Independence for Wales has never been as vigorous or widespread as the movement in Scotland, but what the mis-management of Covid-19 has done is alienate the Welsh from the UK Government. Indeed, even in England, there is a damaging rift between the Government in London and areas of the North -Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle- that feel ignored and left out of critical decision making, the irony being that the 'Red Wall' constituencies in these areas voted for Boris Johnson.

Johnson is better educated than his American counterpart, but clearly education alone does not explain a colossal sense of self-admiration undermined by so sloppy an approach to management. Boris Johnson appears to find the burdens of responsibilty too great to bear, and is in addition so lazy a worker he leaves decision making to other people which is why he is frequently unable to answer questions about his own policy. It is another irony, that Johnson sees himself as a latter-day Churchill rescuing the UK from the European Union, but only embraced this cause to get David Cameron's job, for personal reasons derived from their shared experiences of Eton and Oxford where Johnson was a year or two ahead of Cameron. The result is that Johnson has never truly believed in Brexit, but is convinced he can make it work.

Churchill, judged over the whole of his political career, was a flop -it was the Second World War that revived his career and by which he is best remembered -and for the most part, he spoke for Britain and was admired as a wartime leader. Johnson, also a flop in his earlier career, as London Mayor, is leading the UK to oblivion not victory, his so-called independence from the EU emerging with so many compromises -on Northern Ireland, on fishing, on intelligence and security, on banking and state aid- we might wonder why we are leaving at all, other than to note we leave on poor terms, the details of which we still don't know, barely months before the formal separation begins.

The US is indeed at a critical moment, but I am not sure the South will break away, that four more years means the independence of Callifornia, though it would be four more years of division and desperation. If it were a matter of bets, I would bet on the US not the UK, but I am biased. Because I live here, and can see what damage the Conservatives have done, and see no prospect of a broken Britain being repaired.

This election campaign appears to have shattered the myth of Trump as a political genius. He has been so inept at appealing to undecided voters - in particular by continually drawing attention to his own personality flaws - that he would possibly be better placed if they had locked him in a room without any electronic devices.

Was he ever a political genius, or did he just fluke a win in 2016 due to a combination of favourable circumstances? Was his approach one that could only be effective against an unpopular opponent when Trump was the outsider with no record in government? Trump has never moved far from his default approach of playing 'us vs them' politics, which is why he has struggled to expand his support beyond the 40% or so of committed Trump fans. His only response seems to be to double down on trying to appeal his base.

One thing that has changed between 2016 and now is that last time Trump was talking a lot more about policies to improve the lot of average Americans, albeit a lot of it was vague and never followed up. Trump's policy agenda for the next 4 years has been largely absent from the discussion (the Republican party does not even have a policy platform). It's as if he is asking Americans to endorse him as emperor with the US government as his personal fiefdom.

It looks like most Americans are going to decide to cancel the next season of the Trump reality show. Hopefully it will be the blow-out that the polls are predicting. That probably won't make any difference to whether Trump accepts the result, but it should mean the Republicans are less likely to support his attempts to hold onto power and more likely to want to move on from Trump.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

The US is a divided society, and because it has been so for more than a hundred years, the divisions run deep -the question is whether or not the US, if it cannot be wholly united, can be healed of its poisonous wounds. The best you can hope for from Biden and Harris is a return to competent government, and a more caring attitude to the environment. For complex reasons the questions that have yet to be asked, let alone answered on the future of work and jobs, and because of Covid-19 the future of public health and indeed, the City, must shape the future, but can either Biden or Harris offer some idea of what the future will look like if they win the Presidency and Congress?

It seems to me that four more years of chaos and arrogance in the Presidency, and legislative backwardness in Congress will make a bad situation worse. And yet, the US has shown over the last 100 years that it can survive the worst that politics and economics produces; that it is flexible enough to incorporate immigrants and marginal social groups into the main body of society without diminishing the values and aspirations of the Constitution that a Revolution created.

The difference with the UK could not be more stark -for I feel that the UK is not just divided, but broken. Brexit has not united the UK behind a vision of independence from Europe, capable of maintaining its status as one of the richest countries in the world. It has broken the very idea of Union, with Northern Ireland gradually moving towards the realization that its future lies in a re-unification with the Irish Republic, and with independence for Scotland back on the agenda. Independence for Wales has never been as vigorous or widespread as the movement in Scotland, but what the mis-management of Covid-19 has done is alienate the Welsh from the UK Government. Indeed, even in England, there is a damaging rift between the Government in London and areas of the North -Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle- that feel ignored and left out of critical decision making, the irony being that the 'Red Wall' constituencies in these areas voted for Boris Johnson.

Johnson is better educated than his American counterpart, but clearly education alone does not explain a colossal sense of self-admiration undermined by so sloppy an approach to management. Boris Johnson appears to find the burdens of responsibilty too great to bear, and is in addition so lazy a worker he leaves decision making to other people which is why he is frequently unable to answer questions about his own policy. It is another irony, that Johnson sees himself as a latter-day Churchill rescuing the UK from the European Union, but only embraced this cause to get David Cameron's job, for personal reasons derived from their shared experiences of Eton and Oxford where Johnson was a year or two ahead of Cameron. The result is that Johnson has never truly believed in Brexit, but is convinced he can make it work.

Churchill, judged over the whole of his political career, was a flop -it was the Second World War that revived his career and by which he is best remembered -and for the most part, he spoke for Britain and was admired as a wartime leader. Johnson, also a flop in his earlier career, as London Mayor, is leading the UK to oblivion not victory, his so-called independence from the EU emerging with so many compromises -on Northern Ireland, on fishing, on intelligence and security, on banking and state aid- we might wonder why we are leaving at all, other than to note we leave on poor terms, the details of which we still don't know, barely months before the formal separation begins.

The US is indeed at a critical moment, but I am not sure the South will break away, that four more years means the independence of Callifornia, though it would be four more years of division and desperation. If it were a matter of bets, I would bet on the US not the UK, but I am biased. Because I live here, and can see what damage the Conservatives have done, and see no prospect of a broken Britain being repaired.

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Agree the best US Citizens can hope for from Joe Biden and Kamala Harris
is a return to a competent government,and a more caring attitude to the environment,and i think that Biden and Harris can offer an idea of what the future will look like if they win the presidency and congress,where they will listen to health experts and scientists and come up with a plan on how to deal with the COVID 19 Pandemic,by increasing testing for everyone and contract tracing and reopening schools safely,and get the economy back on track by creating good paying jobs, and fix the healthcare system so people can afford it,and rejoining the paris climate accord. and leading the US out of the darkness,healing and uniting the nation as well,unlike like Donald Trump who has spent the last 3 1/2 years stoking fear and division and dividing the country with his toxic rhetoric,and attacking and degrading people who don't agree with him,and continues to show how incompetent he and doesn't understand how the government work,and is desperate to how on to power by using underhanded tactics,and also agree that the US is at a critical moment,and i think the american people will send him and his corrupt administration a message at the polls.

so my take on the whole US elections is that I've never been more embarrassed to say I'm an American. In 2016, Hillary had every chance to win but she didn't because she didn't appeal to the most abundant demographic - lower to middle class white Americans. That's precisely what Trump did and won by a landslide.

In 2020 the Biden-Harris duo is in my opinion the best and worst combination democrats could have pushed. Tulsi destroyed Kamala at the debate stage and people magically forgot about it. Biden's biggest push is that he was VP when Obama was president. My fear with Biden winning (and that's a big if) is that he might get Epstein'ed out and Kamala becomes president, thus we have someone unfit for presidency once again in charge. Second to that is that Biden is the segue for big corporations to have even more power in politics. If you want to further divide America, look no further than this happening. The good thing about their combination is that they unite both the social and corporate democrat interests under one party. Assuming that Kamala was the more moderate option for social democrats, she's a strong asset regardless of her history as attorney general in California. The #VoteBlueNoMatterWho folks are in for a surprise when their diversity candidate's history is revealed to them, should they choose to listen.

The obligatory Trump part - his way of going about important issues is unfit for office. I disagree that the President should be held to a higher standard than the people who voted for them BUT the Donald has made no changes to improve his character. Unfortunately, Democratic led strategies to remove him have failed thus earning him more of the "good guy" persona he needs to win. Seriously, if Democrats would just project themselves as the people's party they can win. Easily. But instead, they focus their efforts to push their own political agendas which most people don't care. He fails to acknowledge science and medical experts on subjects he knows nothing about which has led to real harm people outside those fields are only beginning to experience. He and his team cut NSF funding significantly and the COVID crisis could've been handled much better. Don't get me wrong, Democrats would've screwed us as well but he had the shot and missed the mark. Trump represents a cultural rejection to corporate America and that's good. Communities should come before bureaucracy, but the Trump of today fails to represent your average American. However, his influence and persona are enough to steer people into voting for him to oppose the corporations backing Democratic leadership.

And to those who wonder why globalization and corporate rule are a problem, I believe the COVID pandemic is enough evidence to show that if we all depend on the same power source, we're doomed when the plug is pulled.

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Originally Posted by IwuvFBBs

That's precisely what Trump did and won by a landslide.

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Trump won by a pretty small margin. Had Hillary won Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin she would have won. Trump won those states by approximate margins of 44,000, 11,000, and 23,000. That means the entire election hinged on 78,000 votes out of about 136,000,000 votes cast nationwide. Or maybe a fairer way to present it is with the population of those states as a denominator. But it was a very close election in the electoral college as a result.

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Originally Posted by IwuvFBBs

Second to that is that Biden is the segue for big corporations to have even more power in politics.

Trump represents a cultural rejection to corporate America and that's good.

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What planet have you been residing on over the past 4 years? Trump's main economic policy priorities have been to cut taxes on corporations and wealthy people and to gut corporate regulation in most areas. Why do you think the stock market was booming (at least until COVID-19)? Trump is a plutocrat's president - all the populist anti-elite stuff was always totally phoney.

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Originally Posted by IwuvFBBs

so my take on the whole US elections is that I've never been more embarrassed to say I'm an American. In 2016, Hillary had every chance to win but she didn't because she didn't appeal to the most abundant demographic - lower to middle class white Americans. That's precisely what Trump did and won by a landslide.

In 2020 the Biden-Harris duo is in my opinion the best and worst combination democrats could have pushed. Tulsi destroyed Kamala at the debate stage and people magically forgot about it. Biden's biggest push is that he was VP when Obama was president. My fear with Biden winning (and that's a big if) is that he might get Epstein'ed out and Kamala becomes president, thus we have someone unfit for presidency once again in charge. Second to that is that Biden is the segue for big corporations to have even more power in politics. If you want to further divide America, look no further than this happening. The good thing about their combination is that they unite both the social and corporate democrat interests under one party. Assuming that Kamala was the more moderate option for social democrats, she's a strong asset regardless of her history as attorney general in California. The #VoteBlueNoMatterWho folks are in for a surprise when their diversity candidate's history is revealed to them, should they choose to listen.

The obligatory Trump part - his way of going about important issues is unfit for office. I disagree that the President should be held to a higher standard than the people who voted for them BUT the Donald has made no changes to improve his character. Unfortunately, Democratic led strategies to remove him have failed thus earning him more of the "good guy" persona he needs to win. Seriously, if Democrats would just project themselves as the people's party they can win. Easily. But instead, they focus their efforts to push their own political agendas which most people don't care. He fails to acknowledge science and medical experts on subjects he knows nothing about which has led to real harm people outside those fields are only beginning to experience. He and his team cut NSF funding significantly and the COVID crisis could've been handled much better. Don't get me wrong, Democrats would've screwed us as well but he had the shot and missed the mark. Trump represents a cultural rejection to corporate America and that's good. Communities should come before bureaucracy, but the Trump of today fails to represent your average American. However, his influence and persona are enough to steer people into voting for him to oppose the corporations backing Democratic leadership.

And to those who wonder why globalization and corporate rule are a problem, I believe the COVID pandemic is enough evidence to show that if we all depend on the same power source, we're doomed when the plug is pulled.

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Although I agree with some if your points, I think that the experience of the Obama administration reveals how difficult it has become to introduce radical social legislation. Not only was the Johnson administration the most radical since FDR, it broke the bi-party consensus on the anvil of race, while the extension of state involvement in the economy has been fought ever since and indeed, come to define the Republican Party. One can applaud the Obama team for rescuing the banking sector, but since the 19th century the US has had the most unstable banking sector in the capitalist world with the exception of Argentina, yet exhibited in Government the same ‘duty of care’ that makes a mockery of free markets and, moreover, requires the tax payers to bail out billionaires. There is a strange irony in an electorate that voted in 2016 for a man who echoed their bitterness at the way things have gone, who himself has been in debt and exploited the law on bankruptcy and debt to substitute his losses with tax payer bailouts.

I have argued before that the Democrats are too soft to implement real changes be it in health care or education, and I doubt Biden and Harris can do it. If they win in 2020 it is a step back, albeit a step back from the edge if a cliff. McConnell and Graham are the legacy of Newt Gingrich, whose confrontational politics has done so much to erode the kind of bi-partisan consensus that gets things done in Congress. The bitterness and rage that exists there is not conducive to good government, while the creation of a Presidency immune to the rule of law is precisely the kind of danger Washington and Jefferson feared when they began this experiment in politics.

Were there to be a landslide victory then, in theory the Democrats could make real changes, but in practice they may have lost the the judiciary, and I think will be too scared of alienating the men with money. Politics might be, like life, disappointing, in this case, it could be tragic. For I think the new generation of voters want real change, on guns, on education, on health, above all on jobs. If four more years of nothing is the price paid for an idiot in the White House, what would the purpose of politics be?