Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by binneu

Dont get me wrong im already lil pissed of talking always same and getting no real arguments.

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You started out complaining about getting no arguments, yet when people go to the trouble of explaining something you dismiss it without much attempt to understand the point. Maybe you don't have the mathematical skills to understand, but that's a reason to take note of experts, not to arrogantly insist that you know better.

You seem interested only in cherry-picking bits of information you think support your argument, while ignoring everything else. Given that, there is little point in further discussion.

You call me arrogant in the same sentence in which you deny me mathematical skills (which you claim to have)?
Just for the information I have a technical engineering education, I can read graphs and calculate percentages.
My problem is not the number crunching but the exact definition of the data. What exactly is a "severe case"? In the article the term "severe disease" is used 41 times but not described exactly how it is defined. Are these people hospitalized WITH or BECAUSE of Corona? Is a positive-tested cancer patient or accident victim a "severe case"? And if so, are vaccinated cancer patients tested for Corona to the same degree as unvaccinated?
I can't figure this out from here, even the best mathematical skills won't help!
(even if I look one level deeper I can't find how exactly the "severe cases" are defined https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general)

Why I ask all this? Because it just doesn't make sense! The vaccination protects against ending up in the hospital but not against dying? (the absolute "cases" and "deaths" in August 2021 are above or at the same level as in August 2020).

Therefore I would want to clarify nevertheless first the question "Did we have in 2020 an excess mortality or not?" Therefore I want to look first back to 2020 and consider as simple data as possible (excess mortality). But unfortunately, arguments with lockdown, masks and vaccinations were immediately brought up here, which only confuses us unnecessarily with the question "do we have an excess mortality or not?".

And one more thing:
What amazes me the most, we had the almost same situation before in 2009! Back then the pandemic turned out to be a hoax and vaccination did more harm than good. And in 2020, the same people are spreading the same panic again (and enriching themselves along the way) and no one is even questioning it! This gullibility is completely incomprehensible for me...
https://th-th.facebook.com/3LRaetica...6515503817312/

I think you understood my point, of course we know taxes fund vaccines that are free at the time of need.

There has been controversy over the causes of death for as long as I have been around, and that is a long time. A child in West Africa dies from Malaria, but the medical report might state it was liver failure- but would the liver have failed had the child not been bitten by an infected mosquito?

A man dies when a bullet shatters his internal organs, as stated in the autopsy report, but would have lived had another man not shot him. What was the cause of death?

It is tiresome to read the garbage about Covid-19 and other diseases when there is an absence of science engaging with science, but hysterical controversies generated by viewing science through the prism of politics, and often from people whose views are more autocratic that the Government to which they are opposed, along with taxes, climate change, gender identity, immigration and whichever pet peeve is available to depict the end of civilisation.

Thus it comes as no surprise to find your 2009 German documentary begins with the hysterical nonsense that two vaccines were developed for swine flu, one for the elite the other for the masses. The makers probably knew both vaccines were ordered before the differences in regard that additives was known, but chose to ignore it to promote their politics rather than the truth.

http://content.time.com/time/health/...932366,00.html

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I think you understood my point, of course we know taxes fund vaccines that are free at the time of need.

There has been controversy over the causes of death for as long as I have been around, and that is a long time. A child in West Africa dies from Malaria, but the medical report might state it was liver failure- but would the liver have failed had the child not been bitten by an infected mosquito?

A man dies when a bullet shatters his internal organs, as stated in the autopsy report, but would have lived had another man not shot him. What was the cause of death?

It is tiresome to read the garbage about Covid-19 and other diseases when there is an absence of science engaging with science, but hysterical controversies generated by viewing science through the prism of politics, and often from people whose views are more autocratic that the Government to which they are opposed, along with taxes, climate change, gender identity, immigration and whichever pet peeve is available to depict the end of civilisation.

Thus it comes as no surprise to find your 2009 German documentary begins with the hysterical nonsense that two vaccines were developed for swine flu, one for the elite the other for the masses. The makers probably knew both vaccines were ordered before the differences in regard that additives was known, but chose to ignore it to promote their politics rather than the truth.

http://content.time.com/time/health/...932366,00.html

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I am well aware of the problem with the cause of death. Unfortunately, Corona pretends to know the cause of death even without further examinations (this was explicitly advised against by the WHO).
If a multimodal, elderly patient dies in hospital and his test is positive, then he immediately goes into the Corona mortality statistic. Is this a sensible procedure? Couldn't one at least note the ct-value or better use a multitest and see which viruses are still detectable in which concentration?
And it gets even better... if the test of a person was positive in the last 28 days and this person then suffers a motorcycle accident and dies, then this is also a case for the Corona-Sterbe-Statistk.
You're right, determining the cause of death is complicated.... but at Corona they don't even bother to clarify. It rather gives the impression as if one wants to pull up the numbers artificially...

A real scientific discussion is suppressed. Everyone who wants to question the Corona narrative is insulted and censored. This gives the impression that there is no doubt about the narrative. This is exactly the opposite of scientificity...

Yes, you are free to believe that it was not known to the politicians. I would say that too, of course, but after all the fraud about H1N1 I find it hard to believe these people... we will probably never find out conclusively. And why does this documentary start with that? Because this topic became public in Germany at that time (when the documentary was broadcasted)... this should be a current topic as an introduction.

binneu, I've engaged you without being insulting to this point but I have to say you're a very determined idiot. Protection against death is not determined by comparing number of deaths at two points in time but comparing the rate of death for vaccinated and unvaccinated people at the same point in time.

There is now a much more transmissible variant in circulation (which is one of many reasons not to make the comparison across time) but even if there weren't the point is to compare cohorts who, except for their vaccination status, have the same or similar risks. Every country has enough unvaccinated people that stats are available for risk of death per 100,000 people separated by vaccination status.

I see you are once again questioning whether people who die of covid are really dying of covid. Could you even tell me what the point of excess death stats is? Do you think doctors are clueless when it comes to disease pathology or that it's just a coincidence that people die of lung damage and acute kidney failure three weeks after testing positive for covid?

Swine flu was nothing like covid. It was more than 10 times less deadly and had a much lower death toll by the end of it. You don't need to be a mathematician but simple things like the difference between a gross figure and a rate seem to elude you.

By the way there are a number of estimates of excess deaths for 2020. It's much easier to generate these estimates in individual countries than worldwide since there are some data gaps worldwide. But the US has consistently had excess deaths that are greater than reported covid deaths. Here is a link that contains data sets from multiple organizations if you're interested. https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...deaths-tracker

Most countries had excess deaths that were much greater than number of reported covid deaths. In a few countries there were fewer deaths but these tended to be countries with a low reported covid death toll. The best explanation would be that extreme measures to avoid covid transmission probably suppressed other disease transmission and reduced other risk factors for death. But the majority of countries had significant excess death numbers.

I'm all Coronavirus talk TF out, I'm tired of the shut downs the masks and all of it in General
I'm not one who believes in the nonsense anyway it's just a flu period!

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Originally Posted by broncofan

binneu, I've engaged you without being insulting to this point but I have to say you're a very determined idiot. Protection against death is not determined by comparing number of deaths at two points in time but comparing the rate of death for vaccinated and unvaccinated people at the same point in time.

There is now a much more transmissible variant in circulation (which is one of many reasons not to make the comparison across time) but even if there weren't the point is to compare cohorts who, except for their vaccination status, have the same or similar risks. Every country has enough unvaccinated people that stats are available for risk of death per 100,000 people separated by vaccination status.

I see you are once again questioning whether people who die of covid are really dying of covid. Could you even tell me what the point of excess death stats is? Do you think doctors are clueless when it comes to disease pathology or that it's just a coincidence that people die of lung damage and acute kidney failure three weeks after testing positive for covid?

Swine flu was nothing like covid. It was more than 10 times less deadly and had a much lower death toll by the end of it. You don't need to be a mathematician but simple things like the difference between a gross figure and a rate seem to elude you.

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Oh yes, the entire human race is divided and the discussion is so morally charged that you call me an idiot just because I question your narrative. I am not calling you an idiot, you are just a victim of a modern highly effective propaganda machine!


I repeat myself... in 2020 there were no vaccines in Germany and still no excess mortality! (have a look at my table)
And do not tell me the fairy tale of the measures! The measures should have worked in Germany but not in France and Spain, for example (there the measures were usually even stricter)? And it is also interesting that the measures have prevented the complete flu, but nevertheless millions of Corona cases could not prevent. Doesn't that make you a bit suspicious?

I never claimed to know the whole truth! The only truth is what the corona believers, politicians and mainstream media claim to know. All I want is a fundamental discussion about the inconsistencies!


That the swine flu is harmless, we found out only after a few months!At the beginning, the same people as today have created the same panic and vaccination propaganda! And the people who were right at that time and have enlightened are denigrated today as conspiracy theorists. The fact that you can be fooled by the same people with the same methods again, borders on madness...

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Originally Posted by binneu

Oh yes, the entire human race is divided and the discussion is so morally charged that you call me an idiot just because I question your narrative. I am not calling you an idiot, you are just a victim of a modern highly effective propaganda machine!


I repeat myself... in 2020 there were no vaccines in Germany and still no excess mortality! (have a look at my table)
And do not tell me the fairy tale of the measures! The measures should have worked in Germany but not in France and Spain, for example (there the measures were usually even stricter)? And it is also interesting that the measures have prevented the complete flu, but nevertheless millions of Corona cases could not prevent. Doesn't that make you a bit suspicious?

I never claimed to know the whole truth! The only truth is what the corona believers, politicians and mainstream media claim to know. All I want is a fundamental discussion about the inconsistencies!


That the swine flu is harmless, we found out only after a few months!At the beginning, the same people as today have created the same panic and vaccination propaganda! And the people who were right at that time and have enlightened are denigrated today as conspiracy theorists. The fact that you can be fooled by the same people with the same methods again, borders on madness...

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Most of the world has always listened to the so called Expert's and fake Media this whole Corona this is a sham and idiots all fell for it it showed how quickly the whole human race will bow down and become Sheep, allowed all the stores and jobs to be closed churches hiding in their homes wearing dumb masks. Most humans are weak mindless fools and this once again proved it, as an Occultist I know the whole human History taught in schools is wrong and we have been falling for fake news since the written word! Im so fed up over this i recently beat a security guard with a chair in a libary for harassing me over my mask I had it over my mouth but not my nose there wasn't anyone with in 20 feet of me and 6 is supposed to the so called distance needed and in tired of this already, I'll prob have to do a year or two in prison but it was fun beating him and letting my Corona aggression out so I could care less two years goes fast inside got about 18 all together in and out.

You see you make a statement saying that

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Swine flu is harmless

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but in the UK there were 457 deaths resulting from people contracting the virus. When a new strain of a disease presents itself which is highly transmissible then the authorities would have to act quickly and perhaps in a somewhat draconian fashion to control that transmission while a remedy is sought.

The World Health Organisation defined a severe case of Covid-19 as the patient having severe pneumonia although there are other definitions by others related to respiratory rate etc.

Lockdowns (measures) did work in the UK to at least some extent in reducing the spread of disease by reducing the R number to manageable rates thereby preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed.