Trannies for Trump

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

Yeah, Flighty, everyone on the internet has a post-grad degree in whatever they happen to be discussing at the time. I don't recall you asking any "pertinent economic questions," I recall you calling me names and dismissing me as an asshole.



"Cannon fodder" seems a lot like hyperbole to me, Stavros. It was less than a decade ago that gays and transsexuals had no rights at all. A slight rollback during the subsequent Republican administration doesn't make them cannon fodder, it was quite anticipated. My point is simply that it's not nearly as bad as it could be.

People who talk about human rights as if they are an entitlement lack perspective. If you ever happen to find yourself at odds with the U.S. Government or an agent thereof, you'll find out exactly how many human rights you don't have.

Everything is a negotiation, Stavros, including our "rights," which can all be taken away instantly at the whim of someone with enough power.

I agree with you that the religious right is a problem. But it's our problem, we live in a country which was built by Christians. They are still the most powerful political force in the country and therefore on the planet. They don't get everything they want, but they will be catered to for their voting power, and that's just the way it is. Might not always be that way, but that's how it is now. Again, that's realpolitik - which is nothing more than accepting reality and dealing with it pragmatically instead of idealistically.

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Well, it's kinda sad that you think transgender folks have any rights anymore, specially at this point.

Your ignorance clearly shows on trans-rights the way you minimize or see it as something SO minuscule by using words like "A slight rollback" "that a couple of token actions against them is a small price to pay" when you simply don't see the bigger problem and the discrimination they are up against today specifically the trans-community. You speak as it is no biggy since it doesn't affect you personally and like it's a matter a fact that it's no big problem. Have you experience to live life with a trans-folk on daily basis ? or faced discrimination ? It appears to me that you don't face discrimination of any sort from the way you speak. Can you show how it's no big problem to you ?

When you take federal protections against trans-folks such as employment, health insurance and etc it is a big deal a huge one/s. What's next ? For what's next for this Administration it won't be a surprise but I do question why is there a primal focus on this community aside from responding to their base when US has bigger issues to fry.

Your replies are nothing but based on ideology and opinion not on facts or statistics. At this point, I think you might be trolling half of the time but I don't doubt trump is your GOD, oops I meant the devil, since you have a preference for the bad guy. Just remember we are in the belly of the beast yo, no ones truly safe.

The thing is some may see this as a "small roll back" until it isn't Once certain people start having rights taken away it then becomes a lot easier to apply it to other people over and over again until the only people who have rights are those who agree 100% with the one in power

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

Normally if I say I'm done with a thread, I'm actually done with it.

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This must be the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

People who talk about human rights as if they are an entitlement lack perspective.

Everything is a negotiation, Stavros, including our "rights," which can all be taken away instantly at the whim of someone with enough power.

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I guess these guys were just another bunch of wrong-headed idealists then? http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

I just find it very difficult to accept that some grown people don't recognize the ebb and flow of American politics.

This was always going to happen, as soon as Americans elected a Republican administration. Republicans are not your friends. They are businessmen with law degrees who know how to make a nation prosper economically. They are put into office by an un-defeatable combination of three voting blocs after every Democratic administration. Those blocs are the religious right and the wealthy - on whom they can always rely - and the necessary swing-vote, the Change vote.

There's a price to pay for the prosperity the Republicans bring. While they are in office they will do everything possible to take care of their voting base. They'll do things most people consider morally reprehensible. They will cater to the religious right and the wealthy, because they know they will need them next time the cycle repeats itself.

Likewise with the Democrats. After every Republican administration, the Democrats will win with their voting base, combined with the always-necessary Change vote. Like the Republicans, they will do everything in their power to take care of their voting base, because they will likewise need them next time the cycle repeats.

And on and on it goes, where it stops nobody knows. The balance is what makes America the greatest country in the world.

All this outrage seems like people who went to a cookout and are surprised to find out there are hot dogs there.

I mean jeezus, wait a few years, folks. It's not your time right now.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

Republicans are not your friends. They are businessmen with law degrees who know how to make a nation prosper economically.

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Evidence?

Attachment 1075965

You forgot the other Republican voting bloc, by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Evidence?

Attachment 1075965

You forgot the other Republican voting bloc, by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

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Tell the truth, Flighty - what grade are you in?

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

Tell the truth, Flighty - what grade are you in?

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I'll take that as "No, I have no evidence for my claim".

I asked earlier if you were really a satirical character, but it seems that you have actually based yourself on an existing satirical character, Dr Pangloss: "All is for the best in this best of all possible worlds."
https://www.shmoop.com/candide/dr-pangloss.html

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Originally Posted by filghy2

I'll take that as "No, I have no evidence for my claim".

I asked earlier if you were really a satirical character, but it seems that you have actually based yourself on an existing satirical character, Dr Pangloss: "All is for the best in this best of all possible worlds."
https://www.shmoop.com/candide/dr-pangloss.html

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Well at least we're not arguing. For us to be arguing, you'd have to make a counter-argument. And if we're not arguing, we must be in full agreement.

Have a good night, friend Flighty.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

Well at least we're not arguing. For us to be arguing, you'd have to make a counter-argument. And if we're not arguing, we must be in full agreement.

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Which part of the chart I posted did you not understand? Here, I'll even do the maths for you - Democrat average 3.8% growth, Republican average 2.9% growth.

Perhaps you just need some tips on the art of argument. http://www.montypython.net/scripts/argument.php

Can someone close this thread? Its killing my boner.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

I just find it very difficult to accept that some grown people don't recognize the ebb and flow of American politics.

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I find your 'realist' view of this Presidency to be indifferent to what is happening as if it were just 'politics as usual', whereas the whole purpose of this Presidency is to change in a way previous administrations have not.

It is easy to dismiss campaign rhetoric as just that, assuming the reality of DC politics will always neutralize the most extreme President, but in this case we have already seen that the almost insane, unhinged need of the President (for personal reasons) and the Republicans (for political reasons) to smash to pieces every vestige of the Obama Presidency is becoming the most comprehensive reversal of the policies inherited from one administration by another yet seen in American history.

The point about Transgendered Americans that I and other posters have pointed out is precisely that with regard to military service it is a minor issue in the general scheme of things that could easily have been left as it was with little cost in terms of finances and administration, but is of major importance to the individuals concerned as it affects their livelihoods, their ambitions, and appears to denigrate their commitment to the security of their country. It does not just take rights away it takes away the dignity of people who are prepared to serve, even if it means dying, but is the preferred option of a draft-dodging coward who did everything he could, with Daddy's help, not to serve.

It is ironic that someone who despises 'political correctness' has in effect borrowed the mantra of 1960s identity politics so that with more than any other President I can think of, with this one, the personal is political. But where the conduct of politics resembles more the court of a vain King in constant need of praise and adulation while across the country young transgendered people are homeless, struggling with money problems, mental health problems, problems of alcohol and drug abuse, all the while being told by the rest of society they are not worth a dime anyway. Who speaks for them? Not their President.

The thing is, As I see it. Everyone says Trump will never do this or Trump will never do that right up to the point when his actually does it. Then they say well I didn't think he would and shorty afterwards it will be come "Fake News" and all his supporters will shout about the lying liberal media and blame it all on Obama

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Which part of the chart I posted did you not understand? Here, I'll even do the maths for you - Democrat average 3.8% growth, Republican average 2.9% growth.

Perhaps you just need some tips on the art of argument. http://www.montypython.net/scripts/argument.php

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We COULD have THAT conversation, Flighty. You know the one, it's about whether GDP growth happens during, or after, an administration's economic policies have been in effect.

But really, should we? I mean, so far, the full extent of your argument is an appeal to authority ("I have a post-grad degree in economics") and an almost unreadable jpeg that could just as easily be used to prove my point as yours.

I'm pretty good at debates, Flighty. But if I have them, I prefer them to be with someone whose awesomeness is not so obvious to himself that he doesn't even feel the need to compose an argument or make a counterpoint.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I find your 'realist' view of this Presidency to be indifferent to what is happening as if it were just 'politics as usual', whereas the whole purpose of this Presidency is to change in a way previous administrations have not.

It is easy to dismiss campaign rhetoric as just that, assuming the reality of DC politics will always neutralize the most extreme President, but in this case we have already seen that the almost insane, unhinged need of the President (for personal reasons) and the Republicans (for political reasons) to smash to pieces every vestige of the Obama Presidency is becoming the most comprehensive reversal of the policies inherited from one administration by another yet seen in American history.

The point about Transgendered Americans that I and other posters have pointed out is precisely that with regard to military service it is a minor issue in the general scheme of things that could easily have been left as it was with little cost in terms of finances and administration, but is of major importance to the individuals concerned as it affects their livelihoods, their ambitions, and appears to denigrate their commitment to the security of their country. It does not just take rights away it takes away the dignity of people who are prepared to serve, even if it means dying, but is the preferred option of a draft-dodging coward who did everything he could, with Daddy's help, not to serve.

It is ironic that someone who despises 'political correctness' has in effect borrowed the mantra of 1960s identity politics so that with more than any other President I can think of, with this one, the personal is political. But where the conduct of politics resembles more the court of a vain King in constant need of praise and adulation while across the country young transgendered people are homeless, struggling with money problems, mental health problems, problems of alcohol and drug abuse, all the while being told by the rest of society they are not worth a dime anyway. Who speaks for them? Not their President.

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I will not and have not disputed that President Trump has a personality disorder. He's a megalomaniacal narcissist. With anger issues.

But he's the same megalomaniacal narcissist with anger issues that he's been for like 50 years now in front of the entire country on national television.

One question I've always wanted to ask Obama's supporters is (and I should qualify this by saying that I voted for Obama - twice - but I have very little tolerance for spending time in the company of hardcore Democrats), how politically savvy do you really think Obama is, considering his incredible underestimation of Donald Trump? What I mean by that is, he insulted the guy in front of the entire country, assuming there'd be no consequences.

Well, now there are consequences. Trump is going to destroy his legacy, has pretty much already done so - his advances in socialized medicine, his more-conservative-than-the-conservatives economic policy, his withdrawal from Middle East politics, and his cooperative trade policy - all will be or have been destroyed.

But do you really understand what Trump is doing, Stavros? In a nutshell, he's simply stopped being nice. To other countries I mean. America doesn't have to be nice. Trump knows this.

And that is the crux of his appeal, that's the core policy that is going to buy him 4 more years (bank on it).

In the end he's going to take care of the rich, and the religious right; but he's also going to enrich the middle class and the poor by clamping down on the rest of the world. "America First" is no bullshit, he's fucking after it. We're not going to be the planet's rich uncle while Trump is in office.

And that's what's needed, for America, right now, in this imperfect world where we truly can't have it all. We can't be the free world's protector, benefactor, and police force all at the same time.

You don't have to convince me that there are a lot of problems with Donald Trump, the man. But no one can convince me that Donald Trump, the President, isn't exactly what we need to transcend our economic problems and assume the mantle of full global hegemony. That's the change you'll see from this administration that you have never seen before, Stavros.

If I weren't an American, I would despise Donald Trump. But I am.

A confused post, Nick which reveals the weaknesses in your argument. President Obama ridiculed a notoriously vain con-man at the White House Correspondents dinner, an event which thrives on ridicule and satire so nobody targeted should complain, let alone bear a grudge of such destructive intensity for so long. But here's the key point: if you don't want to be publicly ridiculed, don't be President. A President must be robust enough to take all the crap thrown at him -or her- and let's face it, from the 'birther controversy' to open racism, Obama was at the time the most abused -and publicly abused President in living memory, and not even for his policies.

Neither Obama nor his successor managed to extricate the USA from the Middle East, both retained and retain a military presence in Iraq, both committed US forces to Syria, both retain their intelligence facilities in Jordan and both appear to have committed the USA to be guarantors of Israel's security in perpetuity with no regard to the cost to American tax-payers. But this President has gone further, allying himself with Saudi Arabia in the Kingdom's savage war in Yemen that has displaced millions, slaughtered hundreds of thousands and all but destroyed the country, while joining the Butcher Kingdom's blackmail of Qatar because it wouldn't buy his son-in-law's dud money-pit in Manhattan, which it has now agreed to do. The USA is up to its neck in the Middle East quagmire, and more than ever before, so the President and his family can use the Office of the President to stuff their pockets with money with no regard to the interests of the USA. Indeed, the government of the USA is now as much a family business as is the so-called government of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

And you can't put 'America First' and then seek the mantle of full global hegemony. You really want to replace globalization with the American Empire? Why have a President when you can have an Emperor, or maybe he would prefer being referred to by his supporters as their God and King? And anyway, the 21st century will be an Asian century, with this President remembered as the man who sold his country to foreign buyers in exchange for adulation and lots and lots of money, most of it parked in foreign bank accounts the taxman can't get his hands on. Americans are not about to get rich under this President. That is the reality, not the bullshit about Making America Great Again.

Poor little guy. He was so confident just 2 weeks ago: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...thinks-so.html

And now he's canceled the summit and threatened nuclear war in the letter.

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. -Abraham Lincoln
"You can fool some of the people all the time. - Donald Trump

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Originally Posted by Stavros

A confused post, Nick which reveals the weaknesses in your argument. President Obama ridiculed a notoriously vain con-man at the White House Correspondents dinner, an event which thrives on ridicule and satire so nobody targeted should complain, let alone bear a grudge of such destructive intensity for so long. But here's the key point: if you don't want to be publicly ridiculed, don't be President. A President must be robust enough to take all the crap thrown at him -or her- and let's face it, from the 'birther controversy' to open racism, Obama was at the time the most abused -and publicly abused President in living memory, and not even for his policies.

Neither Obama nor his successor managed to extricate the USA from the Middle East, both retained and retain a military presence in Iraq, both committed US forces to Syria, both retain their intelligence facilities in Jordan and both appear to have committed the USA to be guarantors of Israel's security in perpetuity with no regard to the cost to American tax-payers. But this President has gone further, allying himself with Saudi Arabia in the Kingdom's savage war in Yemen that has displaced millions, slaughtered hundreds of thousands and all but destroyed the country, while joining the Butcher Kingdom's blackmail of Qatar because it wouldn't buy his son-in-law's dud money-pit in Manhattan, which it has now agreed to do. The USA is up to its neck in the Middle East quagmire, and more than ever before, so the President and his family can use the Office of the President to stuff their pockets with money with no regard to the interests of the USA. Indeed, the government of the USA is now as much a family business as is the so-called government of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

And you can't put 'America First' and then seek the mantle of full global hegemony. You really want to replace globalization with the American Empire? Why have a President when you can have an Emperor, or maybe he would prefer being referred to by his supporters as their God and King? And anyway, the 21st century will be an Asian century, with this President remembered as the man who sold his country to foreign buyers in exchange for adulation and lots and lots of money, most of it parked in foreign bank accounts the taxman can't get his hands on. Americans are not about to get rich under this President. That is the reality, not the bullshit about Making America Great Again.

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I don't think either one of us are confused, Stavros, unless perhaps you are confused about my intelligence level. The USA has been joined at the hip with Saudi Arabia since WWII because of our pathetic dependence on Saudi oil, but President Trump is only in bed with them because he's seeking vengeance over a sour real estate deal? Okay.

You are welcome to armchair-president all you like, Stavros. You can insist our country act for strictly altruistic reasons then complain like hell every time it doesn't (which is every time BTW).

But me, I am going to kick back and watch my bank account grow for the next few years while the big boys play their little games. As a counterpoint to your statement, "Americans are not about to get rich under this President," I can only tell you that I am already getting rich under this President. I'll be putting a good bit of it in U.S. bonds too - gotta be prepared for the next Democratic administration in 2024.

Now, I have a 5-day weekend that just started about a half hour ago, and I won't be spending it debating politics. Think I'm gonna drive up to Vegas this weekend and check out that Lounge.

I have enjoyed our conversation, Stavros.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

...But me, I am going to kick back and watch my bank account grow for the next few years while the big boys play their little games. As a counterpoint to your statement, "Americans are not about to get rich under this President," I can only tell you that I am already getting rich under this President. I'll be putting a good bit of it in U.S. bonds too - gotta be prepared for the next Democratic administration in 2024.

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Were you poor under Obama? Better save some of your money to pay for that Wall.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

We COULD have THAT conversation, Flighty. You know the one, it's about whether GDP growth happens during, or after, an administration's economic policies have been in effect.

But really, should we? I mean, so far, the full extent of your argument is an appeal to authority ("I have a post-grad degree in economics") and an almost unreadable jpeg that could just as easily be used to prove my point as yours.

I'm pretty good at debates, Flighty. But if I have them, I prefer them to be with someone whose awesomeness is not so obvious to himself that he doesn't even feel the need to compose an argument or make a counterpoint.

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When Danger lurked upon the stair
He saw some facts that just weren't there
Those facts weren't there again today
Oh why can't inconvenient facts go away.

While I'm on the Monty Python theme, here's another scene that seems relevant. http://www.montypython.net/scripts/HG-blkscene.php

Do people understand why the stock market is doing so well these days? It is because the money all these companies are getting from Trump's tax policies is going into buying back stocks. That is right the companies are not investing into their own company and are not creating jobs they are instead trying to buy back the stocks that the public has. Which in turn causes the stock to increase in price which inflates the stock market. The CEO's are making millions and in some cases billions off if this, While at the same time are still laying people off and sending those jobs over seas

Why is unemployment so low? Trump on the economy is better than Obama.

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Originally Posted by BostonBad

Why is unemployment so low? Trump on the economy is better than Obama.

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Actually, Trump has close to the worst record of any president who came into office during an economic expansion. Better than Obama so far, but Obama came into office after the worst financial crisis since the 1930s. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgo...onomic-growth/

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Originally Posted by buttslinger

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. -Abraham Lincoln
"You can fool some of the people all the time. - Donald Trump

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I thought that quote was from P.T. Barnum

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Originally Posted by KelliBlueEyes

I thought that quote was from P.T. Barnum

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Barnum may have said it, there is no documentary evidence Lincoln did. The first possible use of the phrase may have been made in 1684 -
… ont pû tromper quelques hommes, ou les tromper tous dans certains lieux & en certains tems, mais non pas tous les hommes, dans tous les lieux & dans tous les siécles.

Americans had close relations with France before, during and after their Revolution, so it is possible an educated American picked this up and it filtered through various channels before becoming an English phrase, there are numerous examples of provenance in the links below for anyone who is interested-

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/11/cannot-fool/
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/161924

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Originally Posted by KelliBlueEyes

I thought that quote was from P.T. Barnum

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I think you're thinking of Barnum's "There's a sucker born every minute." (And while that is associated with him, he may not have ever said it.)

Speaking of suckers: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/polit...ing/index.html

For those stating that the economy is doing well, I'm curious what policies that Trump has enacted that you feel has contributed to the economy doing well. Or is it just a residual effect from the Obama Administration?

Most people have a visceral and intellectual defense against admitting they've been conned.

Trump has made a living off talking big, delivering little and inspiring suckers.

Glad I live close enough to NYC to know Trump's track record before he was ever on The Apprentice.

I can't be too mad at the gullibles who voted for Trump. Those are the ones Donald preys upon and makes them believe in his horseshit.

It's always astounding to me how these folks have bought into Trump - hook, line and sinker. But it's not surprising b/c these are the same folks who believe Alex Jones of Infowars but think the New England Journal of Medicine is fake news. In the meantime, i'm just happy Trump is "MAGA" and inspiring companies across 'merica to "hire bigly" aka do stock buybacks because i'm making bank while these idiots are gleeful about whatever little crumb they've been tossed.

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Originally Posted by manowar50

It's always astounding to me how these folks have bought into Trump - hook, line and sinker. But it's not surprising b/c these are the same folks who believe Alex Jones of Infowars but think the New England Journal of Medicine is fake news. In the meantime, i'm just happy Trump is "MAGA" and inspiring companies across 'merica to "hire bigly" aka do stock buybacks because i'm making bank while these idiots are gleeful about whatever little crumb they've been tossed.

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I'm still bewildered by the sychophancy. It's made me lose the tiny amount of respect I still had for the Republican party. The man is so obviously a con artist with almost no business savvy or successes. I really don't get how people don't see that. It almost feels like I'm taking crazy pills.

Reality is moving a little too fast for the Republican Party, if it weren't for Trump you would have had the first consecutive Democratic Presidents since Johnson and Kennedy, Trump is President of the Sean Hannity Party. Be Afraid. Be VERY Afraid!

I am afraid. I am very afraid. His last comment about NFL players and their right to Freedom of Speech was:

"They don't belong in this country."

Trump is saying that a whole class of citizen's should lose their rights and be ejected from the country because they are exercising the right to freedom of speech.

What stuns me is not so much that the Liar in Chief said it... (He will say anything that pops into that deluded brain of his...) but that the Republican's did not denounce him for it.

Anybody who supports Trump is stupid, evil, or both.

Fascism has arrived. Deny it all you want, but on the surface it appears to be in full swing.

Yet another stroke of pure genius by President Donald Trump: Cancelling the North Korea summit.

Anyone who's ever negotiated a car deal understands that there's one master bargaining chip - being willing to walk away with no deal. Now, the summit is back on, and the USA is firmly-entrenched in the driver's seat.

I know no one in this thread is prepared to give President Trump any credit for anything whatsoever. So as you groan and bluster about trivia while patting each other on the butt over Cheeto jokes and student-council-tier political theories dredged from the shallow end of the pool, I'll be glad to pop back in from time to time to point out when President Trump does something amazing down in the deep end.

It's a tough world. Trump is a tough guy. Can you imagine Obama pulling out of that summit? No fucking way, he'd have given NK the farm just to stop them from waving nukes in our faces. Obama was a hell of a nice guy. He was inspiring in a very positive way. Now we've got a closer in the White House.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4PE2hSqVnk

Let me know when NK agrees to unilaterally end their nuke program and get rid of their nuclear arsenal.

Trump isn't in control of these negotiations and never has been. Trump has no plan of action. As he stated, he operates on his 'instincts'.

That's not how you accomplish anything with the North Koreans.

It will be more of the same, NK will be given more foreign aid for concessions they will never fulfill.

For all you Trump supporters, just because someone declares they are THE BEST NEGOTIATOR doesn't mean it's true.
It's no different than when Trump had his personal physician write up a phony report that he was in 'excellent' health.

Look at Trump's business history, track the bankruptcies and realize the man is conning you too.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

I know no one in this thread is prepared to give President Trump any credit for anything whatsoever. So as you groan and bluster about trivia....
It's a tough world. Trump is a tough guy. Can you imagine Obama pulling out of that summit? No fucking way, he'd have given NK the farm just to stop them from waving nukes in our faces.

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Nick I think you and I can agree that the resolution of the Korean war with a Peace Treaty that satisfies North and South is not a trivial matter, but the question then is, will the summit be concerned with the long-term political arrangements for the Korean peninsula as a whole, or just the question of North Korea's nuclear arsenal?

Obama would not have opted for the 'quick fix' that your President wanted, because the Obama Presidency did not have the opportunity to make an advance in Korea, which began with the election of President Moon who has made rapprochement with the North one of his key policy commitments. That the Republican President and his team had no detailed plan of negotiation was evident when John Bolton argued that de-nuclearisation in North Korea would mean transporting every missile, centrifuge, nut and bolt to the USA, a demand so preposterous it could only have been made to be rejected; and that he then argued- it was echoed by the Christian Mike Pence- that if North Korea did not comply, the 'Libya option' was on the table, but almost at the same time Mike Pompeo was in Pyongyang telling the North Koreans something else.
There is a word for this: incompetence. Not a clever political move at all.

The USA does not recognise North Korea as a state, something only Congress can do, so the President can sign as many documents as he likes with North Korea, but surely none of them will be legally binding on the USA unless Congress recognizes the existence of North Korea as an independent state and then affirms the treaties signed by the President?

Then there is the question of what the Peace Treaty, if there is one, would actually say. Will it confirm that there are two Koreas on the peninsula and that each will recognise the other as an independent country, with a 'non-aggression' clause to guarantee -on paper, at least- that neither country will lay claim to the other, and would this not be a victory for North Korea and a defeat for South Korea?

But here is the greatest irony of all, it looks to me like any deal on de-nuclearisation that is acceptable to both sides will look almost exactly like the 'Iran Nuclear Deal' that your President has called 'the worst deal in history' or words to that effect. North Korea has the nuclear weapon Iran does not have, but could agree to the same terms and conditions on future development, external monitoring and so forth, that is for some reason unacceptable to the USA with Iran.

We have to hope there is a reasonable deal for both North and South Korea, a deal those two countries should negotiate for themselves without the interference of a lunatic like John Bolton who still thinks Ronald Reagan sold out the USA when he agreed an arms reduction programme with Gorbachev, and is determined not to let that happen again. If there is one President who is willing to sell the farm, and the tractors, and the chickens -and billions of dollars of investment in North Korea he would never spend in the USA, in exchange for the Nobel Prize, it is the ignorant fool sitting in the White House spewing forth lies and conspiracy theories to deflect attention away from his own incompetence.

And just as this thread is about the rights Transgendered Americans are losing under the Republican Administration, you can all but guarantee that in any deal signed with this President and that Dear Wise Leader, there will be not one mention of Human Rights, for the simple reason that your President has no regard for Human Rights of Americans, and is not about to lose any sleep over the 100,000+ political prisoners in North Korea, the unknown number working like slaves in the North Korean Gulag, or the victims of summary execution without trial.

We shall watch these developments with interest. Prepare to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

That's not how you accomplish anything with the North Koreans

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Armchair politics, Giovanni. How DO you accomplish anything with the North Koreans? I noticed you didn't offer a solution to go along with your criticism. But in fact, what are we even trying to accomplish? De-nuclearization? Yeah, that's one thing, but there are also humanitarian problems with North Korea - poverty, hunger, a brainwashed population - at least if we believe what we're told, which, when it comes to North Korea, I kinda do. There are infrastructure problems, i.e., how do you take a country that's essentially a giant slave camp and turn it into something that's acceptable to John Q. American in Cincinnati?

The first step is to sit down at a table and open negotiations, preferably with as much leverage as possible on our side. Not clear on what it is you're suggesting we should do.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

it looks to me like any deal on de-nuclearisation that is acceptable to both sides will look almost exactly like the 'Iran Nuclear Deal' that your President has called 'the worst deal in history' or words to that effect.

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How can you say that before negotiations have even begun? The deal doesn't look like anything at all to me yet, not even a deal. We've achieved some level of de-nuclearization already just by being open to negotiation, and we have video evidence to prove that. We've found out, via President Trump's crafty dealing, that North Korea wants this summit more than we do. But that's all we really know. I'm sure there are some insiders who know a lot more about what we want and what they want than you and I do, but at this point, the only thing that's certain is we are going to sit down with Kim Jong-il and see what's what, and we are going to do it with a clear negotiating advantage.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

We shall watch these developments with interest. Prepare to be disappointed.

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I'm always prepared to be disappointed, Stavros. Disappointed by politicians, disappointed by the general public, disappointed by girls, corporations, charities, baseball teams, you name it.

But I have not yet been disappointed by Donald Trump. More like just the opposite - I didn't fully expect he would be trying so hard to keep all his campaign promises, but that's just what he's doing. Liberals, of course, disagreed with his promises on the face of it and don't want to see them kept. But I see a President who's on the verge of achieving great things in the arena of international diplomacy while simultaneously keeping America first in all he does. It really doesn't seem that complicated to me either - we are the strongest country in the history of...history. Finally we have a President who's acting like he realizes that.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

Armchair politics, Giovanni. How DO you accomplish anything with the North Koreans? I noticed you didn't offer a solution to go along with your criticism. But in fact, what are we even trying to accomplish? De-nuclearization? Yeah, that's one thing, but there are also humanitarian problems with North Korea - poverty, hunger, a brainwashed population - at least if we believe what we're told, which, when it comes to North Korea, I kinda do. There are infrastructure problems, i.e., how do you take a country that's essentially a giant slave camp and turn it into something that's acceptable to John Q. American in Cincinnati?

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Speaking of brainwashed.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

But I have not yet been disappointed by Donald Trump. More like just the opposite - I didn't fully expect he would be trying so hard to keep all his campaign promises, but that's just what he's doing. Liberals, of course, disagreed with his promises on the face of it and don't want to see them kept. But I see a President who's on the verge of achieving great things in the arena of international diplomacy while simultaneously keeping America first in all he does. It really doesn't seem that complicated to me either - we are the strongest country in the history of...history. Finally we have a President who's acting like he realizes that.

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[QUOTE=Nick Danger;1839987
[I]How can you say that before negotiations have even begun? The deal doesn't look like anything at all to me yet, not even a deal. We've achieved some level of de-nuclearization already just by being open to negotiation, and we have video evidence to prove that. We've found out, via President Trump's crafty dealing, that North Korea wants this summit more than we do. But that's all we really know. I'm sure there are some insiders who know a lot more about what we want and what they want than you and I do, but at this point, the only thing that's certain is we are going to sit down with Kim Jong-il and see what's what, and we are going to do it with a clear negotiating advantage.[/I]
--Sorry but this is nonsense. It is a basic rule of diplomacy that Heads of State do not meet to sign documents unless the negotiation has been done in advance and there is something to sign, these guys are not meeting in Singapore for a plate of noodles, some tea and a friendly chat. Nothing has been achieved so far, other than the demolition of some concrete buildings, a claim that North Korea is willing to participate in the de-nuclearization of the Peninsula, with the implication they would like the USA to leave and go home. And I note you say nothing about the issue of North and South Korea as two separate states and whether Congress will endorse any document signed in Singapore, or is the photo opportunity all that matters?

But I have not yet been disappointed by Donald Trump. More like just the opposite - I didn't fully expect he would be trying so hard to keep all his campaign promises, but that's just what he's doing. Liberals, of course, disagreed with his promises on the face of it and don't want to see them kept. But I see a President who's on the verge of achieving great things in the arena of international diplomacy while simultaneously keeping America first in all he does. It really doesn't seem that complicated to me either - we are the strongest country in the history of...history. Finally we have a President who's acting like he realizes that.

-Not just liberals but many others opposed the policies not 'on the face of it' but because, as with the denial of climate change, the President is plain wrong and the alternative policies which in effect simply reverse the policies introduced by Obama will damage the environment -enabling coal companies to dump their slurry in local rivers and streams, for example, or allowing 'Hunters' from Texas to slaughter baby bears in their dens in Alaska because there no other means of controlling the bear population.
And what was the ban on Transgendered Americans serving in the military about if not just a knee-jerk reversal of Obama's policy to enable it? Is this all politics is now, resentment and revenge?

And I thought your guy kept insisting that America is weak not strong, which is why it needs 'America First' and a 'strong man' at the helm of the ship, even if he is looking Starboard when the ship is listing to Port.