Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niccolo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the_corner

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seanchai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seanchai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

---

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?

---

Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.

---

Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

---

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

---

Ehmm, sorry to disapoint you but, nop, you are not intelligent enough to understand religion... apparently you are not well informed either about the things that you say.

You are the reason the world hates the USA.... people like you... that make statements like that, without taking a minute to realize that what you say is a bunch of bullcrap.... if you don't know what you are talking about, please do all of us a favor and SHUT UP... then get informed (as in real information), read, get some descent education... and then, maybe just maybe you can open your mouth and say something worth.

Everyone is entitled their own opinion... and you are entitled yours too, as long as you know what the hell you're saying... and as long as you don't use that opinion as an excuse to insult other people.

In the end, the only one looking like an ignorant is you.

---

If you are an expert on religious studies, on Islam in particular, then please go ahead and make your case and explain exactly why the other poster is wrong. For this ad hominem diatribe of yours speaks to your own intellectual limitations, and that's all it does. You have said nothing at all about the matter at hand.

---

Hmm... well... I have not stated in anyway that I am an expert in religious studies, or Islam... fact is your argument is "ad hominem" since you are trying to disprove me and basically appeal at the the hypothetical fact that "I am an expert", and therefore I should prove... does that makes your argument also an argumentum ad ignorantiam?.... I should not need to disprove anything that Kaiti has said... it is clearly filled with over exaggerations on things that are not completely true... how do you call that? an association fallacy?.... "Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII)" <-- Reductio ad Hitlerum?... association fallacy?

Apart, this thread is not about atheism or religion or darwinism, and is not about formal or informal fallacies, and is not about Richard Dawkins either... why can't I agree with Kaiti?

Simply put... there is no way that she, or you, or anyone can justify... based on fallacies... the killing and murdering of civilian people on an armed conflict.... or use an armed conflict as excuse to bring up an atheism discussion (does that make you guilty of association fallacy again?)....

And well, the fact that she tries to prove a point... by association fallacy...
insulting everyone in the process, calling people from other religious groups a bunch of derogatory things, just proves a great deal of ignorance, so my point remains.

And you... trying to justify her.... you are just a boot licker... better yet... to put it on HA terms... a brown-noser :wink:

BAN FOR NICCOLO. Dumbass Nutswinger....your what we call a dickrider no not Literally. Dickrider is like a brown noser who is one to an extreme.
Btw Kaiti if you hate people on the fact of being MUSLIM you might as well hate the whole world or at least those who arent atheist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seanchai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

---

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?

---

Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.

---

Not that I disagree with you regarding radical islamism (and I stress RADICAL) as not being a religion, but the rest of your description rings of Catholicism as well. Crusades, the witch hunts, the inquisition, all acts of horriffic brutality in the name of Jesus Christ against those who did not follow the forced religion.

When religion preaches things like seperatism, hatred, and violence, it no longer becomes a religion--it becomes a cult. Religion is supposed to be about faith, peace, love and understanding. But there are those who have none of that in their hearts, but use the faith of others to do their own bidding. And so we have the Catholic Church, and the Shool of Mohammed, using "God" as their justification for all their actions.

My take on religion. There's probably multiple god's and one main God that use us for entertainment purposes. Because let's face it humans being's are entertaining creatures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ef9hatchman

BAN FOR NICCOLO. Dumbass Nutswinger....your what we call a dickrider no not Literally. Dickrider is like a brown noser who is one to an extreme.
Btw Kaiti if you hate people on the fact of being MUSLIM you might as well hate the whole world or at least those who arent atheist.

---

This thread is catnip for stupid hissing felines.

Quote:

---

And you... trying to justify her....

---

I asked you why you thought she was wrong in her assessment of Islam, and I'm still waiting for a response to that. Where exactly has she uttered an untruth? Point it out. Be specific. If you think you know enough about Islam to comment on it, then please share your knowledge with us all. But well, I asked if you actually know anything about Islam, and apparently you don't. So why should anyone take your opinion of what anyone else says about Islam seriously?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Nino

"Whiskey Pete" is being dropped over there...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Nino

Actually the article came from the conservative London Times, PP just reported that. Don't kill the messengers, Losers - El Nino

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niccolo

But the article didn't say what you claimed now, did it? At the very beginning of this thread people either didn't bother watching a video, which was also under a misleading heading btw, or else they misunderstood it entirely, and automatically began knocking Israel. Here's an article which does not say that Israel is using that outlawed weapon against "Gaza victims" at all. I wonder how many people actually read the article. You obviously didn't. Or, like so many people with the original video, if you did read it, then you didn't understand it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fred41

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niccolo

I'd really like all those people who insulted kittyKaiti when she spoke about Islam to reveal what they know about Islam. Because there were precious little comments addressing what she actually said about Islam. Who's actually done any serious study here? Anybody? As for the comments about kittyKaiti's likening Islam to a virus, well that's an old, old idea. Surely someone here has read Richard Dawkins?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,10...ns---Channel-4

---

They probably know precious little. They should read Robert Spencer's books: "The Truth About Muhammad" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)". they are very eyeopening. Seems a lot of what the young lady said was true. But if it doesn't mesh with people's idea of -"we're all the same and if we could just talk..all our problems would be solved"..views of the world..then it's automatically hate speech and can't be listened to even if it's factual. Ask all the people who have death decrees put on their heads because the good people of Islam didn't like what they said or wrote or drew or acted improperly, etc. These things weren't done by a "small meaningless, Muslim minority..they were declared by Islamic religious leaders of "whole countries"..like Iran.
I love people who like to say Christianity and Islam are the same (or the Bible versus the Koran)..I can't remember someone in modern times who was threatened to be put to death for criticizing christianity or the bible. try that with the Koran....and NO I'm not religious at all.

---

There are some strange characters using this board, that's for sure. I see no attempt being made to actually defend Islamic teachings; to say (for example) that the Islamic prophet did not marry Aisha when she was six, and initiate sexual relations with her when she was nine years old. Nor does anyone attempt to explain how this event can be reconciled with the Islamic belief that their prophet is the "ideal man" whose behaviour is something to be emulated by all good Muslims everywhere. And there has been no mention at all of any of the atrocities committed by Islamic forces throughout history, not least by Mohammad, who unquestionably had a ruthless streak about him. (To put it mildly!)

What happens is that people are attacked personally if they say anything critical of Islam. It's a very curious phenomenon.

I don't know if you have ever read Bruce Bawer's book, "While Europe Slept," or any of his articles on Islam. He's written a lot of good stuff on this topic, and if you're already familiar with Robert Spencer's work, then I think you might enjoy Bruce Bawer too.

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yosi

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

---

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phobun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ef9hatchman

BAN FOR NICCOLO. Dumbass Nutswinger....your what we call a dickrider no not Literally. Dickrider is like a brown noser who is one to an extreme.
Btw Kaiti if you hate people on the fact of being MUSLIM you might as well hate the whole world or at least those who arent atheist.

---

This thread is catnip for stupid hissing felines.

---

PHOBUN worst poster ever...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yosi

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

---

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

---

Al Quaida of Bin Laden is also a terorist organization , not an army......

the goal of these terorist Islamic groups is "Jihad" - holy war , to make the whole world muslim , doing it by killing innocent poeple like the 9/11 in America , or like the latest attack in Mumbay India.

these terorists in Gaza, hide in schools , in Shifa hospital in Gaza , forcing innocent palestinians at gunpoint to shoot missiles on Israeli teritory for the last 8 years , and you are talking about inhumanity on the Israeli side.........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yosi

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

---

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

---

Please define what a "proportional reaction" in a war is?? ..and while you're at it - please explain to me how you can completely avoid killing innocent civilians when the enemy hides , and yes, shoots at you from their midst. Has it ever occured to any of you that if Israel just wanted to wipe out or "target" as many civilians as possible..there would be a helluva lot more casualties than there already are.

Perhaps..some of you could also tell me what Israel's reaction should be after Hamas first violates ..and then refuses to extend a cease fire...(and please don't answer with "they should react proportionally"without defining what that should be) ??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niccolo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fred41

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niccolo

I'd really like all those people who insulted kittyKaiti when she spoke about Islam to reveal what they know about Islam. Because there were precious little comments addressing what she actually said about Islam. Who's actually done any serious study here? Anybody? As for the comments about kittyKaiti's likening Islam to a virus, well that's an old, old idea. Surely someone here has read Richard Dawkins?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,10...ns---Channel-4

---

They probably know precious little. They should read Robert Spencer's books: "The Truth About Muhammad" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)". they are very eyeopening. Seems a lot of what the young lady said was true. But if it doesn't mesh with people's idea of -"we're all the same and if we could just talk..all our problems would be solved"..views of the world..then it's automatically hate speech and can't be listened to even if it's factual. Ask all the people who have death decrees put on their heads because the good people of Islam didn't like what they said or wrote or drew or acted improperly, etc. These things weren't done by a "small meaningless, Muslim minority..they were declared by Islamic religious leaders of "whole countries"..like Iran.
I love people who like to say Christianity and Islam are the same (or the Bible versus the Koran)..I can't remember someone in modern times who was threatened to be put to death for criticizing christianity or the bible. try that with the Koran....and NO I'm not religious at all.

---

There are some strange characters using this board, that's for sure. I see no attempt being made to actually defend Islamic teachings; to say (for example) that the Islamic prophet did not marry Aisha when she was six, and initiate sexual relations with her when she was nine years old. Nor does anyone attempt to explain how this event can be reconciled with the Islamic belief that their prophet is the "ideal man" whose behaviour is something to be emulated by all good Muslims everywhere. And there has been no mention at all of any of the atrocities committed by Islamic forces throughout history, not least by Mohammad, who unquestionably had a ruthless streak about him. (To put it mildly!)

What happens is that people are attacked personally if they say anything critical of Islam. It's a very curious phenomenon.

I don't know if you have ever read Bruce Bawer's book, "While Europe Slept," or any of his articles on Islam. He's written a lot of good stuff on this topic, and if you're already familiar with Robert Spencer's work, then I think you might enjoy Bruce Bawer too.

---

Thanks, I'll give it a read. I find it interesting how a member here even wants to ban you and calls you "brown noser" just because he has no actual answers to your statements (or doesn't like what you have to say). You therefore must be a brownnoser because the person you're defending (or her statements) happens to be a TS...and therefore that must logically be the only reason you would possibly defend her.

So lets ban you and everyone else we don't like the answers of ..until we only have people here that agree completely with each other . You must be a right wing nut bag..so you have to go. .......of course,..little to no criticism of the conspiracy theory, left wing nut bags that are allowed to run unchecked.......yeah that's fair.[/i][/b]

Why did everyone immediately start talking about how awful it was for Israel to do this? Doesn't the description say that Hamas was parading the weapons and they went off? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I took it as an accident. (And for the record, I think both sides are wrong).

Goshhh I wasnt able to finish the video I cant take it anymore :(

I think this thread should be locked or should be in the pit

Salaam/Shalom to all!

Hamas, once a religiously inspired terrorist organization, is now also an elected political party. Palestinian elections are coming up again soon. Could it be that Hamas’s renewed provocation of Israel’s wrath is a political ploy to stir up hatred for Israel and votes for the party?

This morning NPR aired a brief discussion touching on the military definition of the phrase “acceptable civilian losses.” It seems the losses are acceptable if their sum doesn’t outweigh the benefits of military action. Which accountants are to be hired to make the assessment wasn’t mentioned. I’m sure military and political minds can easily weigh civilian deaths against troop advancements and other sorts of strategic or political gains. Hamas, for example, fires their mortars from within Palestinian schools and hospitals gambling that the children and patients will function as a kind of repellant against retaliation. Not only is this odious practice itself repellant, it’s paradoxical. By Hamas’s own reckoning, a school full of Palestinian children is worth only the one or two Israeli’s their entire mortar barrage is likely to injure. Of course Israel is inclined to agree with such an assessment and take out the school. Big tit for little tat has been Israel’s modus operandi for decades. It’s predicable.

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

Quote:

---

Al Quaida of Bin Laden is also a terorist organization , not an army......

---

True. I could not agree more.

Quote:

---

the goal of these terorist Islamic groups is "Jihad" - holy war , to make the whole world muslim , doing it by killing innocent poeple like the 9/11 in America , or like the latest attack in Mumbay India.

---

Is it? How do you know that? Have you talked to them? To me, "making whole world muslim" is a pretty optimistic goal to achieve from a sieged little shit hole called Gaza. Sounds like an eutopia to me. But now again, could you please explain to me, how Gaza became a sieged little shit hole?
How came that all those innocent people managed to put more than 1.5 milion other people in the shit hole called Gaza? Oh, well, it does not matter, i guess. The most important thing is that they are - like you said - innocent.

Quote:

---

these terorists in Gaza, hide in schools , in Shifa hospital in Gaza , forcing innocent palestinians at gunpoint to shoot missiles on Israeli teritory for the last 8 years , and you are talking about inhumanity on the Israeli side.........

---

Ok, and that is a perfect excuse to you for killing all those civilians. I think that Izrael's military force also is supposed to defend even those innocent palestinians held as hostages, but not kill them as well along with terrorists. That is definitely the wrong way of defeating terrorism, don't you think so? It gives me a totaly wrong picture of that "human" side of Izrael.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fred41

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yosi

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

---

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

---

Please define what a "proportional reaction" in a war is?? ..and while you're at it - please explain to me how you can completely avoid killing innocent civilians when the enemy hides , and yes, shoots at you from their midst. Has it ever occured to any of you that if Israel just wanted to wipe out or "target" as many civilians as possible..there would be a helluva lot more casualties than there already are.

Perhaps..some of you could also tell me what Israel's reaction should be after Hamas first violates ..and then refuses to extend a cease fire...(and please don't answer with "they should react proportionally"without defining what that should be) ??

---

With all the technology that Izrael's army posess, I consider it to be a shame not being able to spot all those terrorists inside so small area as Gaza is. Believe me or not, but this reaction is more than unproportional.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fred41

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yosi

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

---

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

---

Please define what a "proportional reaction" in a war is?? ..and while you're at it - please explain to me how you can completely avoid killing innocent civilians when the enemy hides , and yes, shoots at you from their midst. Has it ever occured to any of you that if Israel just wanted to wipe out or "target" as many civilians as possible..there would be a helluva lot more casualties than there already are.

Perhaps..some of you could also tell me what Israel's reaction should be after Hamas first violates ..and then refuses to extend a cease fire...(and please don't answer with "they should react proportionally"without defining what that should be) ??

---

With all the technology that Izrael's army posess, I consider it to be a shame not being able to spot all those terrorists inside so small area as Gaza is. Believe me or not, but this reaction is more than unproportional.

---

What kind of technology does that. We don't have it . If a Hamas terrorist takes off that silly ski mask he always seems to wear in photos...then he's just a Palestinian civilian....terrorists don't glow in the dark..or have a floating "T" over their heads.

You can't expect a military to use weapons that don't exist yet..and if they don't ..claim they should.

How many Japanese did we kill in World War 2 compared to Americans killed? How many Arabs got killed in Iraq and Afghanistan compared to Americans in the Trade Centers? If some one punches me in the face I am only suppose to hit them once back???

War is nasty business, civilians always get hurt and killed. These countries declared war on Israel not the other way around. Should they wait until Hamas gets some better weapons from Iran like a dirty bomb before they hit back hard.

Just remember they are fighting over the Promise Land that was given to them by God in the Bible. This is more humane then what the Americans did to the native people here or any other Europeans did to any area they went to. I know its disturbing see this on Utube. Imagine watching everything that happened in the past on Utube and not just reading about it. Or imagining it through movies and books.

Americans need to grow up and understand that we are a country at War with people we do not know to much about. If Iran was are neighbor think of the fun we would be having.

Quote:

---

Al Quaida of Bin Laden is also a terorist organization , not an army...... the goal of these terorist Islamic groups is "Jihad" - holy war , to make the whole world muslim , doing it by killing innocent poeple like the 9/11 in America , or like the latest attack in Mumbay India. - yosi

---

Quote:

---

Is it? How do you know that? Have you talked to them? To me, "making whole world muslim" is a pretty optimistic goal to achieve from a sieged little shit hole called Gaza. Sounds like an eutopia to me. - Hannibal

---

I submit to you that yosi holds that view because he has done a little reading on the subject. It is not at all hard nowadays to study the views of Islamic terrorists. They're not shy about telling you exactly what they think. Or one can go straight to the source and study the Koran, and the life of the Islamic prophet (the "ideal man").

I visited Malta recently, and saw with my own eyes where the Knights of St. John and the Maltese people fought off the Islamic forces of Sulieman the Magnificent in 1565. I was there for a holiday, but when those bastards sailed for Malta, they were trying to bring Europe under the rule of Islam. As Ernle Bradford, author of "The Great Siege" notes, their aim was to do what we did in WWII - from Malta, take Sicily, and from Sicily, invade Italy and the rest of mainland Europe.

If you're at all interested in the way Islam has driven its followers to conquer other nations throughout history, then I can recommend Bradford's book, as well as "Empires of the Sea" by Roger Crowley - a thumping good read, if ever there was one. If you want a decent background to Al Qaeda, then Lawrence Wright's "The Looming Tower" is probably your best bet. (Wright talks about writers like Sayyid Qutb as well, who could be said to have paved the way for what was to follow.) If you are interested in the way in which Islamic rulers (and pirates!) have treated non-Muslims, then I would have to point you towards "White Gold" by Giles Milton. Another excellent read. Well, that's enough of me talking about books; I'll happily do so all day and all night. The point I was making was simply that there is a lot of material out there on Islam: what it's like, and what it's always been like. It seems to me that yosi has read some of it, that's all. (kittyKaiti has probably done so too btw.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alyssats

Goshhh I wasnt able to finish the video I cant take it anymore :(

I think this thread should be locked or should be in the pit

Salaam/Shalom to all!

---

I agree. You're sharp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phobun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alyssats

Goshhh I wasnt able to finish the video I cant take it anymore :(

I think this thread should be locked or should be in the pit

Salaam/Shalom to all!

---

I agree. You're sharp.

---

Nah, it's just getting interesting. Let's see what people are really made of, & what they really think. It could be quite revealing .. to paraphrase the late, great Bill Hicks, we can look at cock photos later ...

Obama will not give a damn about what Israel is doing.He will kiss the ass of Israel and the most powerful lobbying group in the US,the Israeli lobby.Strange how so few of those peace loving Hollywood yentas do not open their mouths when Palestinians are being killed and mained.However,I do not blame Israel.After all,they could wait for the UN to resolve everything to the favor of the Palestinian rats.Thinking back to 9/11 when the Palestinians were cheering in the streets,I can only open a cold Samuel Adams and say "Hope you like the fireworks,ragheads"!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Hamas, once a religiously inspired terrorist organization, is now also an elected political party. Palestinian elections are coming up again soon. Could it be that Hamas’s renewed provocation of Israel’s wrath is a political ploy to stir up hatred for Israel and votes for the party?

This morning NPR aired a brief discussion touching on the military definition of the phrase “acceptable civilian losses.” It seems the losses are acceptable if their sum doesn’t outweigh the benefits of military action. Which accountants are to be hired to make the assessment wasn’t mentioned. I’m sure military and political minds can easily weigh civilian deaths against troop advancements and other sorts of strategic or political gains. Hamas, for example, fires their mortars from within Palestinian schools and hospitals gambling that the children and patients will function as a kind of repellant against retaliation. Not only is this odious practice itself repellant, it’s paradoxical. By Hamas’s own reckoning, a school full of Palestinian children is worth only the one or two Israeli’s their entire mortar barrage is likely to injure. Of course Israel is inclined to agree with such an assessment and take out the school. Big tit for little tat has been Israel’s modus operandi for decades. It’s predicable.

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

---

Not like anyone is going to respond to your post Trish, because its inconvenient to adress any relavent points. Israel is defined as a Jewish state. One that any jew in the world (or person claiming Jewish heritage be they Russian, Ethiopian or Argentine) can move to and instantly be granted more rights (such as the right to build a home once its been demolished, vote, etc...) than non Jewish residents who were born in Jerusalem, whose parents and grandparents, and great-grandparents have consistently lived in the same city for the last 150 years. 1 million russian Jews emigrated to Israel after the collapse of the soviet Union and took up residence as settlers in the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank. When Settlers shoot Palestinian children who are trying to harvest olives nobody takes notice, when Islamic Militants fire rockets and kill no one, it is seen as justification for full scale assaults on civilian populations.

Obviously the propaganda system in the United States has been extraordinarily successful at convincing the American public that all Arabs are Muslim, and all Arabs are terrorists. It's a shameful thing to read such vituperative racism, makes me sick to my stomach. Not all Palestinians are Muslims, not all Palestinians hate Americans.

After the outbreak of the Second intifada I had a friend who was volunteering (an white guy from New York) for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (the Palestinian Red Cross) driving an ambulance. The idea was that Americans were less likely to get blown up driving pregnant women to the hospital than Arabs were. It was a terrifying time when we stopped hearing from him: he had been kidnapped by the IDF and they proceeded to use him as a human shield brutally beating him and denying him food, water, or access to the Red Cross or the UN. So those were the good guys, kidnapping Medics, running over peace activists with bulldozers, running over children and the elderly in wheelchairs with Caterpillars....etc.. Or as of yesterday bombing a UN shelter full of civilians and United Nations volunteers.

It is easy to ignore the reality of the Israeli occupation one that has been repeatedly condemned by the entire international community (save for the US and Israel), likened by Archbishop Desmond Tutu to Apartheid South Africa. It is also easy enough for the media to equate Zionism with Israel and ignore the many Jews within the United States, around the world, and in Israel who are absolutely disgusted by the brutality and racism of the Israeli state.

Appalling. Not surprising. Appalling nonetheless.

Everyone knows Hamas sucks, Palestinians know Hamas sucks. But Hamas was the only alternative to the worthless institutions created by Arafat (worthless because the state of Israel made sure Arafat never left his compound, and made sure that there would never be an effective Secular Palestinian state). The whole point all along was to drive the Palestinian population further into the arms of a radicalized Islamic state, and thus provide a pretext to extend military control and illegal settlements. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, just a smidgen of intelligence and a reasonable understanding of history.

I've said my piece, and I'll go back to making porn. Continue on with the next 100 posts calling Arabs ragheads, and equating Islam with terrorism....Fucking imbeciles.

Well at least Hamas don't need a recruitment agency, the Israelis do it for em :roll:

how the fuck did Osama Laden get put into this?
Hes Yemenian.
And for those who dont know asking why I didnt put BIN in there. Bin in arabic just mean "Son of"

Quote:

---

I've said my piece, and I'll go back to making porn. Continue on with the next 100 posts calling Arabs ragheads, and equating Islam with terrorism....Fucking imbeciles. - Mandy

---

You seem quite well read Mandy, and reasonably up to speed on history and so forth, so I wonder if you have read any of the books I mentioned in my previous post? As for "equating Islam with terrorism", that's something of a straw man, surely? I wouldn't argue that they are one and the same, equal to one another, inside and out. It's more complex than that. However one could certainly argue that throughout history Islam has tried to bring the House of War under Islamic rule, I mean the facts speak for themselves there. And if one considers the principle of abrogation (later passages in the Koran override any contradictory passages that were written earlier), then one can see how Ayaan Hirsi Ali reached her conclusion, post 9/11, that when the bin Ladens and Mohammad Attas of the world say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. Because the Islamic prophet certainly became more of a warlord, and committed some rather nasty acts, later on in his career. And there's always the quaint little story of his marrying a six year old girl ... (Have you ever read Bukowski's "The Fiend"?)

Can I just add that I certainly do not consider myself to be an imbecile; I just don't see where you get that from. The issue of Islamic terrorism is a deeply troubling one, and yes, like many people I have cracked open the books, and done a little research on the subject - does this signify an abnormally low intelligence? I think not. I may draw different conclusions from you sometimes, but that's just the way of the world. And that's a good thing. I'm thinking here of one of John Stuart Mill's arguments for freedom of speech, the "partially true" argument put forward in "On Liberty" which claims that "since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied." (Mill, On Liberty, Penguin Classics p. 116.)

I enjoy participating in this kind of thread not because I think I'm right and I know more than anyone else (hardly!) but because I know that other people will bring their own knowledge of the subject to the table, and I might find out something that I didn't know before. John Stuart Mill was a very clever fellow!

Finally I will bring up "The Great Siege" again and say that when I was travelling to Malta last year I read up on the island's history before I went. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie "The Malta Story" but that is pretty accurate. "Operation Pedestal" was a last ditch effort by the Allied forces to re-supply Malta, and although the sailors on that convoy knew that the Germans would try to sink them, still they set sail (from the West coast of my own country). Hardly any of them made it through, but enough of them did to save Malta from starvation. Having endured one "great siege" already, there was no way the Maltese (or the Brits!) were going to give in to the Nazis. The island of Malta was actually awarded the George Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy. During the first "great siege" in 1565 they showed similar pluck in the face of an overwhelming military force - the Islamic forces assembled by Sulieman the Magnificent. Slavery, torture, the desecration of corpses - these were to be expected if any of the Knights fell into Islamic hands - alive or dead. Again I would have to recommend "Empires of the Sea" by Roger Crowley, if you like reading popular/accessible history books. It's a fantastic read - and something of an eye-opener too.

Im biting my tongue for now. Ill go back and read all the posts, haven't done that yet. Then I'll comment.

For now I just say one this: What you have seen on Youtube is one video. The western media will not show the things I see everyday. This morning I saw a man, holding a baby who has clearly been dead for over a week. He wont let it go because his wife and other kids are dead.

Two aid workers go to help a man laying in the street dieing. A sniper, hits the dieing man and the aid worker. The workers run for a van, and take off leaving the dead man.

Another man sits next to his 2 kids, both dead, one about 8, the other maybe 4. Both have what are obvious to be bullet wounds maybe from a sniper, bullseye shots in the forehead, the other in the heart.

Angel17TS

Hi,

Did you watch the video at the top of the thread? What did you make of it?

And I take it by "see every day" you mean on TV? (Since you are apparently in the UAE, so unless you have a fantastically powerful pair of binoculars ... ;-) )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Hamas, once a religiously inspired terrorist organization, is now also an elected political party. Palestinian elections are coming up again soon. Could it be that Hamas’s renewed provocation of Israel’s wrath is a political ploy to stir up hatred for Israel and votes for the party?

This morning NPR aired a brief discussion touching on the military definition of the phrase “acceptable civilian losses.” It seems the losses are acceptable if their sum doesn’t outweigh the benefits of military action. Which accountants are to be hired to make the assessment wasn’t mentioned. I’m sure military and political minds can easily weigh civilian deaths against troop advancements and other sorts of strategic or political gains. Hamas, for example, fires their mortars from within Palestinian schools and hospitals gambling that the children and patients will function as a kind of repellant against retaliation. Not only is this odious practice itself repellant, it’s paradoxical. By Hamas’s own reckoning, a school full of Palestinian children is worth only the one or two Israeli’s their entire mortar barrage is likely to injure. Of course Israel is inclined to agree with such an assessment and take out the school. Big tit for little tat has been Israel’s modus operandi for decades. It’s predicable.

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

---

Very very well put Trish. Of course we all know that its a BIG "if", but nonetheless, what you said is what is needed in the world. We can't base government and law on religion--it soooo obviously doesn't work and has been proven time and time again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

---

A completely secular government..in the Middle east??? Well..if they could achieve that , then they'd be one of.......hmm..lets see...well there's ..no...maybe..no..not them either..Okay..that would pretty much make them the ONLY one. At least they're the closest thing you have to a modern democratic society.

They're always gonna be the ONLY one of something anyway. In the world you have tons of Islamic gov'ts , Christian gov'ts (usually secular)..why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state...it's not like you're gonna live there anytime soon...can't they have their one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by needsum

Very very well put Trish. Of course we all know that its a BIG "if", but nonetheless, what you said is what is needed in the world. We can't base government and law on religion--it soooo obviously doesn't work and has been proven time and time again.

---

I don't know what you mean by "we"...we're not a global government yet.If the overly predominant population of a country is one religion..your not going to have a completerly secular government. Even if you do - that would make it secular in name only. That's just simple logic.

I would settle for governments with secular laws. You're never going to enter the modern age if you base your laws and punishments on the stone age..(or on the medieval drivel written in most "holy books")

fred suggests:

Quote:

---

They're always gonna be the ONLY one of something anyway. In the world you have tons of Islamic gov'ts , Christian gov'ts (usually secular)..why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state...it's not like you're gonna live there anytime soon...can't they have their one?

---

Sure why not? It's not like it's costing anyone their lives or anything, right?
I'm not sure what you mean though when you write "Christian gov'ts (usually secular)". Do you mean a nation peopled largely by Christians but with a form of government that treats people of all religious faiths (or lack of religious faith[]) as equal citizens, and endeavors to recognize no particular faith as privileged under the law? When you ask, "...why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state?" do you mean a nation with a predominate[ly] Jewish population but w[ith] a government that extends equal citizenship rights to people [of] all religious faiths? If so, I think we agree, there can be one of those. You do realize, as Mandy points out, such a thing does not currently exist.

[edited for spelling and grammar]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niccolo

You seem quite well read Mandy, and reasonably up to speed on history and so forth, so I wonder if you have read any of the books I mentioned in my previous post? As for "equating Islam with terrorism", that's something of a straw man, surely? I wouldn't argue that they are one and the same, equal to one another, inside and out. It's more complex than that. However one could certainly argue that throughout history Islam has tried to bring the House of War under Islamic rule, I mean the facts speak for themselves there.

---

Sure. So has Catholicism and Protestantism. Should we even discuss the barbarisms that were committed in the name of sanctifying lands in the name of Christ? Cutting off the hands of Arawak Indians for failing to find gold for the church? Should we talk about the inquisition? The witch trials? Manifest destiny? Colonialism? Slavery? All done in the name of Christ..Give me a fucking break. If its a comparison of religions, certainly the violence and callousness of Christianity compares when it comes to sheer brutality.

I understand that post 9/11 there has been a strong push amongst the liberal intelligentsia in the US and Europe to paint radical Islam as something that is unique and separate from all other forms of radical religion and totalitarian belief, and not connected in any way to the pervasive injustice which its adherents live with; quite convenient since the old bogeyman of communism had collapsed and something was needed to justify insane military budgets and bellicose foreign policies.

So on the right you had plain old racism and ignorance, and on the left you had whiney little shits like Christopher Hitchens screaming about the dangers of Islam. Right around that time I had a number of friends, many who were Jews, who spent a considerable amount of time working as human rights observers in the occupied territories, and what they reported was vastly different from what the media was reporting. First hand accounts all seemed to say the same thing; as hopes and dreams of a viable Palestinian state, and a semblance of democracy dissapeared people clung to fundamentalist religion as an answer, just as they have clung to fundamentalist religion or totalitarian leaders in the past. If you are raised in a prison camp with no hope of a normal life, no expectation of being able to support a family, raise kids (who don't get maimed or murdered simply for living) and do all the other things that in essence define being human, you tend to go off the deep end with religion. Regardless all my friends had the same story upon their return, one of friendship and hospitality from their Palestinian contacts (because hospitality is an important part of Palestinian life) and one of intense sadness at the growing hopelessness that existed in the younger generations.

In Palestine that religion happens to be Islam, but I think it is more a show of historical blindness and internalized racism for one to scream about the dangers of Islam while ignoring the wackos in the US and Europe who would happily turn our country into a totalitarian religious state, and who pray and yearn for the apocalypse with their every passing breath. Is radical Islam as an ideology any worse than millenarian evangelicalism and its predication on Christain Zionism? Doubtful.

But sure, you demonize 4 million Palestinians based on their religion and ignore the horrifying injustices and violence being forced upon them by the Israeli state with US weaponry. It's their religion, not the fact that they were forcefully expelled from their homes, locked in prison camps, and repeatedly tortured and abused for the past 60 years....No way, its just their crazy religion, because those crazy Arabs don't share our enlightened way of thinking. Why do you think I refer to that line of thinking as imbecilic? Because without a heavy stream of indoctrination any adult, and certainly any child could easily see that as racist drivel.

Sorry if this has been pointed out already, I've only read the first 4 pages and didn't want to filter through the rest.

The video posted to start this thread has nothing to do with the current conflict at all, it wasn't even the result of an IDF attack or strike.

The explosion was caused by Hamas during a parade in Gaza in 2005, when their own explosives accidently detonated!

Why Israel is killing everybody???!! why why why

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fred41

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by needsum

Very very well put Trish. Of course we all know that its a BIG "if", but nonetheless, what you said is what is needed in the world. We can't base government and law on religion--it soooo obviously doesn't work and has been proven time and time again.

---

I don't know what you mean by "we"...we're not a global government yet.If the overly predominant population of a country is one religion..your not going to have a completerly secular government. Even if you do - that would make it secular in name only. That's just simple logic.

I would settle for governments with secular laws. You're never going to enter the modern age if you base your laws and punishments on the stone age..(or on the medieval drivel written in most "holy books")

---

I think you just reinstated my point. All I was trying to say is that religion needs to stay out of politics, regardless of the country you're in. I'm not trying to make a statement for a world government. Just solidifying my position that religion and politics together tend to do nothing more than cause the shit that this topic is covering.

Yeah the conflict is getting bad, I saw this one video where this young man was handcuffed on the ground and then he was executed by the government!

Oh shit my bad; it wasnt a video of Gaza, it was America!