Another Malaysian Airliner "crashed" ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scroller

"Sorry, children, something important has come up and I have to go."

---

.... and what possible difference would those 5 mins have made. It still didn't stop him using it as an excuse to jump into Iraq without any relation.

Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18...ne-shoot-down/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18...ne-shoot-down/

---

Facts have a liberal bias.®

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

I can't think of anything more fatuous right now than people bickering over President Obama's reaction to this crisis.

The priority now is for the Dutch Air Accident team to be given unlimited access to the crash site in order to a) recover and identify the victims, and return them to their families; and b) recover as much as they can of the wreckage of the plane so that it can be re-assembled in a hangar somewhere in the Netherlands for forensic inspection (as happened with PanAm 103 that was brought down over Lockerbie in 1988). This inspection ought to be able to determine if MH17 was brought down by a bomb on board, by a surface-to-air missile, or by a missile fired from a military jet.

The government of the Ukraine has the legal right to impose its authority on the territory under its jurisdiction, but it is clear that the military action used to assert this right has led to the displacement of 25,000 people from eastern Ukraine now living as refugees in Russia. The manifest lack of trust between the east of Ukraine and the rest of the country cannot justify the creation of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' or the support given to it by Russia, so there is clearly a need for a new approach to resolve the political settlement of the Ukraine without further recourse to violence.

In this context, the EU or the UN should sponsor a conference which could propose:
-the immediate cessation of all military action in the Ukraine;
-the status quo ante in which all of the territory of the Ukraine (minus the Crimea) is controlled by the government in Kiev;
-the dissolution of the current government in favour of a government of national unity which would include representatives from all parts of the country and work towards the creation of a new constitution followed by elections;
-a new demarcation of the international boundary of the Ukraine in which the eastern provinces become part of Russia, subject to a referendum;
-that the Ukraine agree to become a neutral state and therefore not pursue membership of the EU or NATO (which is not popular in the Ukraine anyway).

These options would enable Ukraine to reassert its political sovereignty, enable Russia to revert to being a 'good neighbour', and offer Europe a neutral state in the borderlands with Russia; but would also require the disbandment of the 'armed forces' of the 'Donetsk People's Republic', and end Vladimir Putin's dream of re-creating the USSR in all but name.

Even during the Cold War when economic ties between the USSR and Europe were negligible, no military action was considered when the Red Army invaded Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, or when martial law was declared in Poland in 1981, although President Reagan did respond by sponsoring a tv programme, Let Poland be Poland. The solutions, though difficult, are diplomatic. It all depends on how seriously the parties want to stop fighting and start talking, and how willing they are to make bold decisions about the future of relations between the Ukraine and Russia.

---

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery.
Btw , so good to see you back . We certainly respect your desire to' keep a low profile' but I know I'm not alone in missing your informed and articulate input around here.

what goes around comes around, so beware ......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sukumvit boy

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery.
Btw , so good to see you back . We certainly respect your desire to' keep a low profile' but I know I'm not alone in missing your informed and articulate input around here.

---

Why do Americans always have this tendency to exaggerate when it comes to politics? Putin's Russia isn't looking anything like the old USSR and I'm sure it isn't heading in that direction. Sure, Putin may not be the most ideal leader, but then again, who is? I do for instance remember a US president not all that long ago, who invaded a country on fabricated evidence, killing more than 100.000 innocent people in the process.
Perhaps it's time we look a little closer at the role of the so-called West in this conflict.
Had NATO not been so eager to make member states out of all those countries that were formerly under USSR influence, there would not be a conflict in the Ukraine today. Putin is merely responding to that expansian drift. When it became more and more likely that even the Ukraine would eventually fall victim, Putin stepped in. Not all that surprising, seeing that a large part of that country is populated by Russian people.
If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catherinefan

I do for instance remember a US president not all that long ago, who invaded a country on fabricated evidence, killing more than 100.000 innocent people in the process.

---

So do I, yet the republicans who are critizing the current president's foreign policy seem to forget about that.

Quote:

---

If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.

---

Exactly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sukumvit boy

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery.
Btw , so good to see you back . We certainly respect your desire to' keep a low profile' but I know I'm not alone in missing your informed and articulate input around here.

---

There is a simple explanation for my absence in the last month -I was ill and therefore not able to access the internet, and then I was out of the country, in fact I was flying home over the English Channel at around the time that the Malaysian Airliner was taking off from Amsterdam on its fatal flight.

Just a brief off-topic post to say: Hello Stavros. Hope you have or expect to fully recover. As sukumvit boy said, we missed you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catherinefan

Had NATO not been so eager to make member states out of all those countries that were formerly under USSR influence, there would not be a conflict in the Ukraine today. Putin is merely responding to that expansian drift. When it became more and more likely that even the Ukraine would eventually fall victim, Putin stepped in. Not all that surprising, seeing that a large part of that country is populated by Russian people.
If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.

---

The point you're missing is that sovereign nations have, or should have, the right to join groups or organizations of their own choosing. Aside from that, NATO stands for the defense of rights for all people.