2 Convicted of Murdering Transgender Teen

I am simply in awe of this discussion. I cannot believe that anyone would give these murderers an excuse. Is it because they did not rape her? Is it only rape ... for which there is no excuse? I mean if a man went into a woman's apartment thinking that she was in the equation (because of the perception the woman gave) and then discovered the opposite to be true ... he is then justified in raping her? I think not.

Listen... of all people, I can understand trying to find a defensible position. But there is not a defense to every act. Yes, she lied to the young men. Yes, I believe that they were not overjoyed when they discovered this fact. But please, educate me on exactly WHY she was at fault as they BEAT HER SENSELESS. Then put a PUT A ROPE AROUND HER NECK and CHOKED HER until she stopped BREATHING. Of course, understanding the forsenics dynamics... please remember that THEY CONTINUED TO CHOKE HER for sometime AFTER SHE STOPPED BREATHING to actually cause her death by asphyxiation.

I as a man - cannot and will not - in anyway condone or lessen the act of killing another person - simply because I was incorrect as to the orifice I stuck my dick into or the sex of that person. Somehow I'd like to think that such information would be easily available as well as visibly apparent to me if I treated that person as something more than a faceless / souless / meaningless sexual object with whom I did not even take the time to remove mine much less their clothing.

Then again, perhaps it is me that is misguided. I mean why should we hold men responsible for their actions when they get a little UPSET. Why not go back to the days when men could rape their wives because they were upset that she would not have sex on command. Why not go back to the days when a black child whistling at a white woman was punishable by death - because men were a bit UPSET. Perhaps not even that far back ... let's just go back to GAY BASHING. Remember when that wasn't a crime - but something the GAYS brought upon themselves because ... well because they were GAY! I mean ... some people on this board in this post seem to think that it was the girl's fault - right. It must be the GAYS fault too. I mean they UPSET someone who beat them. And she upset someone who killed her.

Oh yea - I forgot - these upstanding examples of manhood were FOOLED by her. Yes, I understand. They stuck their dicks somewhere without knowing all the facts. Yup - sounds like its her fault.

Now again, I will say this. I don't think hiding one sex from a partner or a friend is the right thing to do. But I definitely did not know it was an offense PUNISHABLE BY DEATH.

Now let me step down...

~Brickcitybrother~

"I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers."

Quinn,

Big difference. A bad, or tough neighborhood in itself connotes danger, or possible bodily harm. Your friend failed to heed the advice of your knowledge of the area and the alarms set off and you two unfortunately paid the price. In Gwen's case, how could she have possibly foreseen not only harm, but her murder ? Gwen, like most of us, probably thought that her deception was not punishable by murder. ...So misleading or deception are grounds for murder, or does it only apply to the nuances and situations of the transgendered world, particularly when the victim is only 17 ?

By the way, I'm glad you two got some justice from your horrific experience.

Regardless, she should have seen that it could cause a problem whether she was advised to or not. Again, her ignorance or immaturity put herself in a bad position. Quinn's story is exactly the same - they went somewhere they shouldn't have not knowing the outcome could get so bad and when some bad people came along, they were caught in that wrong place.
It's very sad.
Hopefully, this story might help some others by educating them so they are wiser in their decisions.

Those bleating that murder is always murder and it's never the victims fault - just aren't living in the real world. If only we had such a utopian society but we don't - day to day we're constantly making decisions to our own survival, we're making judgement calls based on our experiences and knowledge - but murder does happen, this one would have been avoided if she'd made the decision not to go home with them and not to fool them into thinking she was a genetic female.
RG4Me - misleading and deception are the cause for murder on a daily basis - from a wife cheating on a husband, to a business cheat to a soldier in Iraq - of course it's not just in the transgender world.
I think some of you just have blinkers on that this was a 17 yr old tranny and read/watch stuff on a daily basis that doesn't get you as irate as this.
seanchai

Sean,

I don't exist in a black and white, or utopian world. I never said that if the end result of a situation is murder, that it wasn't the result of some factors the victim possibly could have done or not done differently, but I will hold my ground and once again say that in this specific case, she did not deserve to be beaten, much less murdered. I'm still confused as to how some of you want to assign her any fault at all. Assign her fault for the company she made, or for not knowing what lurked in the twisted mind of those punks, which no one would know, but placing fault with her, no matter how small in this case, is way off. Way off!

I agree completely. She did not deserve that.
seanchai

Realgirls4me,

Respectfully speaking, I do not see a difference – except maybe in the degree of the outcome. The connection, as I see it, is that the victim (Gwen) and I both engaged in behavior that could easily be foreseen to have had a dangerous outcome. Knowing that, we each chose to continue engaging in the act that could so obviously result in our being harmed. In her case, it resulted in a horrific death; in my case, I just received a relatively short hospital stay. To my mind, though, both instances have common elements of predictability – and hence responsibility.

As far as excusing her attacker's actions is concerned, to my mind, not one post on here has done so. Some are merely illustrating that Gwen is responsible for putting herself in a situation where this outcome was predictable, not justifiable. Were they to have given her attackers "the chair," I would have enjoyed flipping the proverbial switch as much as anyone.

Hope this clarifies what I was attempting to illustrate with my previous post.

-Quinn

Quinn,

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree in this specific case. In your case, you knew, and your friend was warned, that you'd be risking life and limb treading in an area you knew could be dangerous to you. Its reputation preceded it, along with all the probable outcomes such a neighborhood may produce. In Gwen's case, the predictability of her actions had no such caveats in place. Yes, I'm pretty certain she expected a reaction, but I don't think that in her mind her worst case scenario ever -- EVER -- imagined such a violent response, much less murder. ...She deserved to be raped by the risque short skirt she wore that evening ... Ring a bell ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brickcitybrother

I am simply in awe of this discussion. I cannot believe that anyone would give these murderers an excuse. Is it because they did not rape her? Is it only rape ... for which there is no excuse? I mean if a man went into a woman's apartment thinking that she was in the equation (because of the perception the woman gave) and then discovered the opposite to be true ... he is then justified in raping her? I think not.

Listen... of all people, I can understand trying to find a defensible position. But there is not a defense to every act. Yes, she lied to the young men. Yes, I believe that they were not overjoyed when they discovered this fact. But please, educate me on exactly WHY she was at fault as they BEAT HER SENSELESS. Then put a PUT A ROPE AROUND HER NECK and CHOKED HER until she stopped BREATHING. Of course, understanding the forsenics dynamics... please remember that THEY CONTINUED TO CHOKE HER for sometime AFTER SHE STOPPED BREATHING to actually cause her death by asphyxiation.

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I would also add that she was 17 (minor) at the time of her killing and from I`ve heard all 3 men were adults. That is a very aggravating factor
as far as the law is concerned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seanchai

Those bleating that murder is always murder and it's never the victims fault - just aren't living in the real world.

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These are not mutually exclusive concepts: murder is murder and I think the perpetrators deserved to be prosecuted and sentenced for first degree, not second degree, murder. But Gwen did expose herself to the danger, albeit by appearances unknowing of what the extent of that danger was.

But I hear you regarding the difference between the real world and the utopian ideal, Seanchai, in a slightly different context: while the ideal is that a TS should not have to fear potential danger or modify her actions due to that potential danger, any more than a black man, Quinn as a kid in Lakewood, or a gay man should fear potential danger simply because they are black, white, gay or whatever, the reality is that the danger exists, and girls need to be aware of it and take sensible precautions.

Did anyone catch the Today show interview with Gwen's mother and lawyer? Nicely balanced, positive, thoughtful, not at all sensational: they got this one right. Gwen's mother said she was satisfied with the second degree murder conviction but not with the omission of a hate crime conviction which would have added four years to the sentences and, more importantly, emphasized the true nature of the crime. She (Gwen's mom) has been speaking in public schools and elsewhere raising awareness. The backstory case review also stated that, while the sentence is 15 to life, it is improbable that the convicted killers will get released early and will likely serve the full term.