Obama is smooth...

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Originally Posted by Ben

Obama, as a tactician, wants to appeal to libertarians with respect to gay marriage. (Albeit libertarians want government out of marriage.)

Libertarian David Boaz on Gay Marriage - YouTube

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Just how big is the libertarian constituency, Ben? Big enough to make a difference, or is it just to fill a small gap in the big tent?

I doubt if it impinged that much on Obama's thinking.

Quoting blogger Glenn Greenwald on President Obama: "He engineered the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. His Justice Department is refusing to defend the constitutionality of DOMA in court, a very unusual step. He has ushered in a series of important federal spousal benefits for gay employees of the federal government. And now, for the first time, the office of the American President is officially supporting a policy that a mere decade ago was deemed truly radical: same-sex marriage. Those are real achievements."

http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

Just how big is the libertarian constituency, Ben? Big enough to make a difference, or is it just to fill a small gap in the big tent?

I doubt if it impinged that much on Obama's thinking.

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How big?????? Hard to say. But the established libertarian movement over here leans to the right. Not the left.
One should note that there's a distinction between left-leaning libertarians like Noam Chomsky and right-leaning libertarians like Ron Paul.
But left-leaning libertarians don't get any, say, widespread press.... I mean, one would conclude that libertarians lean exclusively to the right.
This isn't true.
Here we go. Ol' wikipedia -- :)

Left-libertarianism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

Obama Endorses Marriage Equality…But Not for All:

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012...ity-federalism

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Originally Posted by Ben

I agree: "... don't marry a gay person." :)
But it's important, I think, that the President of the United States comes out in favor of gay marriage.
It's a very big and positive step.
And, too, Romney has taken a stand:
Mitt Romney opposes same-sex marriage‎ (May 9, 2012) - YouTube

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Interesting, although it came across as more a quick reaction than a constructed policy statement.

But with Romney and his record, is his response:

a) personal belief

b) political calculation for his core constituency

c) another flip-flop.

Only he knows.

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Originally Posted by Ben

How big?????? Hard to say. But the established libertarian movement over here leans to the right. Not the left.
One should note that there's a distinction between left-leaning libertarians like Noam Chomsky and right-leaning libertarians like Ron Paul.
But left-leaning libertarians don't get any, say, widespread press.... I mean, one would conclude that libertarians lean exclusively to the right.
This isn't true.
Here we go. Ol' wikipedia -- :)

Left-libertarianism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

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Thanks Ben. Interesting. But I'd reckon that the differences of opinion, if not of principle, between libertarians of left and right, are so enormous that giving them the same title is wildly misleading

Sums it up pretty well. It will change. Some people will always oppose it, but it will change in time.

And this is a historic moment to remember.

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

Thanks Ben. Interesting. But I'd reckon that the differences of opinion, if not of principle, between libertarians of left and right, are so enormous that giving them the same title is wildly misleading

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Yeah. And left-libertarianism thinks that people should control their own labor. Ya know, the people who work in the mills should own the mills. Noam Chomsky has also talked about nature having rights. (I mean, this is why the corporate press doesn't give them much, if any, attention. Because, in part, left-leaning libertarianism is to the left of so-called progressives and social democrats.) I mean, why should nature have rights, eh? ha ha ha!
So, the natural world should have rights and animals should have rights and the animals in forests should have the right to live in those forests. (Actually, to underscore a crucial point: we often talk about how Native Indians/Americans were here first. Actually, that isn't entirely true. Bears, wolves, salmon, frogs etc., etc., etc., etc. were here first. And shouldn't they have rights? What about an actual forest? I mean, these are questions that never arise?
And that, too, extends to future generations. When we swat a mosquito that's a value judgement. We're saying the mosquito has no value. So, we, collectively, are saying future generations have no value because of what we're doing with respect to global warming.)
So, left-leaning libertarianism isn't exclusively business-based. They pose a lot more fundamental questions.
Questions seemingly ignored by most people and, of course, the mainstream/corporate press. Which is understandable. Because it isn't in their interests to talk about the rights of nature....

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Originally Posted by Ben

Yeah. And left-libertarianism thinks that people should control their own labor. Ya know, the people who work in the mills should own the mills. Noam Chomsky has also talked about nature having rights. (I mean, this is why the corporate press doesn't give them much, if any, attention. Because, in part, left-leaning libertarianism is to the left of so-called progressives and social democrats.) I mean, why should nature have rights, eh? ha ha ha!
So, the natural world should have rights and animals should have rights and the animals in forests should have the right to live in those forests. (Actually, to underscore a crucial point: we often talk about how Native Indians/Americans were here first. Actually, that isn't entirely true. Bears, wolves, salmon, frogs etc., etc., etc., etc. were here first. And shouldn't they have rights? What about an actual forest? I mean, these are questions that never arise?
And that, too, extends to future generations. When we swat a mosquito that's a value judgement. We're saying the mosquito has no value. So, we, collectively, are saying future generations have no value because of what we're doing with respect to global warming.)
So, left-leaning libertarianism isn't exclusively business-based. They pose a lot more fundamental questions.
Questions seemingly ignored by most people and, of course, the mainstream/corporate press. Which is understandable. Because it isn't in their interests to talk about the rights of nature....

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So the Libertarians have their roots in the Diggers of 17th century England. Winstanley lives on!

As a trivial aside, Ben, you know my views on the attractions or otherwise of Derrick Barry, but I must say that your current avatar is the first pic I've seen where I've actually thought, "I very well might, you know....." lol.

Former VP Dick Cheney on gay marriage:

Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage - YouTube