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Spending on police protection has increased 445 percent since 1982 while The number of sworn police officers has only increased by 62%
I wonder where all that money is going - oh yeah tactical armaments
Seriously ??? ---> Broncofan - has nothing has changed with our police force is it just the same as in the 1960's - are you really expecting me to believe that or have you just convinced your self ?
The word asinine, and more appropriately "clueless" is your interpretation of things that have been said in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
I agree the Vietnam protests were indeed violent - and look at how history turned out on that one - were the police in the Right ? hell no... did they say they were - oh you bet they did...Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
I have no problem with to separate departments - but why the hell has the NSA ballooned up freakishly fast - do you really want me to dredge up stats on this or are you willing to admit its gone overboard and gotten kinda crazy - I mean we are spending 5 MILLION dollars a month just hold the data from all the phone calls in Haiti - come on tell me thats not out of control?
My My My's remarks are pretty naive. Comparisons with Nazi germany are totally spurious. Of course one should not be complacent about any political system. The UK has many,many things that are wrong - as does the US (Especially in its foreign policy - and the advance of the religious unthinking right and in issues of gun control) But no way is it heading towards the sort of totaliarianism of Nazi Germany of the Eastern bloc. It is paranoia ad the libertarian right that wants to create that notion for some dubious ends.
Originally Posted by trish http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/ima...s/viewpost.gif Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.
You say we're a police state. My-my-my (that guy you say "totally gets it") defines a police state for us as one that "exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population." So I asked (and still do): In the case of the police state known as the U.S.A., who's exercising the police, a cabal of Wall Street bankers perhaps? Your immediate response isQuote:
Originally Posted by TempestTS
.Quote:
Why yes - havent you heard what Ive been saying
Who is gathering power - banks and corporations - warned about by Thomas Jefferson and just as strongly by Eisenhower...
So your exact claim is that a cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.
That's logic. Not misdirection. You now see that the claim is worthy of mockery. So I will allow you to withdraw it. All you have to do is withdraw the claim that the U.S. is a police state, or pull back from the my-my-my's claim that a police state is one that exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population. BTW the definition was lifted from Wikipedia.
Still misdirection via inference to another persons statement and paraphrasingQuote:
Originally Posted by trish
I have no need to withdraw any claim since the counterclaim is baseless.
They're not naive at all man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
I've studied Nazi Germany for more than 20 years. and Have lived all my 38 years in the USA.
For me, it is completely fair to point out the similarities and support others that do see similarities and the BEGINNING signs of the USA possibly becoming a police state in the future. Here where I live, the police get away with justified shootings quite often, as they are quite the trigger happy bunch. A border patrol agent, is now being sued for 15 million dollars, because a Mexican boy 10 years old threw a rock at him, and the border patrol agent's reaction was to shoot SEVERAL TIMES, into MEXICO. Fatally wounding the boy. Initially , he "got away with it" , as it was termed "self defense" . Not excesssive? Hmmm...
NEVER have I said, that the USA is EXACTLY like Nazi Germany, that I admit would be ludicrous.
You guys keep thinking I'm comparing them side by side and saying
Slaughtering of Jews: Germany check , USa Check
A central dictator: Germany check , Usa Check
I'm simply bringing up some warning signs, that if Left unchecked , could theoretically result in an actual police state. While my personal belief, is that the groundwork is already there, and it is in it's infant stages.
The USA might actually become the first country where a collective plebiscite unknowingly creates it's own police state. And they might totally be ok with it. And it might take 10-15 years before people finally call it a "police state" , But the theory is, that those same american will be totally content with it, since it will be in their "best interests" much like the German populace was happy (on the surface).
sorry , for you guys thinking I'm an idiot. but I ran these posts by several friends. And they agree, that you guys are stuck in some lala land and are failing to see the similarities because your mind blocks it. You are stuck in "Nazi germany really really really really bad" "USA , nice, but has bad stuff"
So let’s see. You believe
1) The U.S. is a police state.
2) You just affirmed that “a police state exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.” (At least you refused to distance yourself from this...the Wikipedia definition of a police state)
3) Your examples of police infraction include local, State and Federal police agencies.
4) Who’s directing the nation’s local, State, and Federal agencies to rigidly and repressively police our social, economic and political lives? Your answer: a cabal of Wall Street bankers.
5) But you disavow the statement: A cabal of Wall Street bankers is directing local, State and Federal enforcement agencies to rigidly and repressively police our social, economic and political lives. Indeed you seem to think it’s a mockery of your position. So much for modus ponens. :shrug
Instead of disbanding the Federal government, why don’t we work on identifying that cabal and send the militia after ‘em?
Speaking of drawing parallels with Nazi Germany, how about the tendency to blame the Nation's problems on a cabal of bankers?
Many of the local police forces in the major cities may look more intimidating because of the military style equipment they received...but to say they are more brutal than 30 years ago ?!...I've lived in one of the largest cities in the U.S.A. (N.Y.C) since I was seven...I'm 52....30 years ago the police were far more brutal (and corrupt)here even though crime was rampant...It doesn't even compare. Cases of police brutality will always exist due to the individual officer, bad supervision or an overall bad policy that often gets changed... through voting .
Not sure who this is directed at but I dont believe I said the police are more brutal - I said the police force is far more powerful and better armed than it was 30 years ago to an absurd level -Quote:
Originally Posted by fred41
seriously why do the police need to spend millions on 6 wheel armored personnel carriers? The number one expenditure request is currently Drones and covert surveillance for cell towers and computers (which dont require a warrant the same way a wire tap would)
yes the worst of the worst criminals are better armed too but no where near that level - when have you seen a gang member driving a scaled down tank? Hell our police force is has better personal battle armor than the forces we send into combat. Have our protests turned suddenly violent - is this down town Lebanon? Because thats what it looks like they are prepared to march into...
And its all costing us billions!
Who's it for? - who are we at war with here on our own soil ? nothing else would justify that kind of armament.
Remember police spending went up over 400% do you feel 4 times safer - I sure the hell dont
There's a line for providing law officers with the tools to do their job safely thats reasonable and that I would be completely in favor of - unfortunately that line is barely visible is so distant from what we are becoming today.
Maybe the title of this thread should be, Fuck, the cops seem kind of out-of-hand these days.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1871486
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_unnatural
Murder by cop - the man was being very passive even while they were hassling him - he made no threatening motions or statements there was no reason for a half dozen cops to drag him to the ground including one using a choke hold and applying his full body weight to it the cop had his feet off the ground and his forearm against the mans wind pipe almost immediately and rode him all the way to the ground. Then the police ignored his pleading that he couldn't breathe long after the situation was under control...
the person filming, despite being a reasonable distance away was asked repeatedly to move farther away - no doubt because of the camera - you dont need a 30 ft perimeter there was no danger and the situation was completely controlled by the police - they just didnt want to be seen or heard on video in any detail.
The person filming did a great job, kept a level head, was polite and complied with requests even the unreasonable request to leave his bike behind which was nearly within arms reach.
The cop with the choke hold should face charges - manslaughter at very least... all the others that didnt act to stop him are accessories to the crime.
But we all know how this turns out - internal investigation - no comment - paid leave and re assigned with out being punished to a different area quietly after the media sensation dies down.
Yeah fuck em... A man died who didnt need to.
Well, he looked threatening, so I guess that kind of excessive force was necessary.
Yes. Police in many communities are out of control. The exact opposite of under control of a central authority directing their actions to rigidly and repressively control our social, economic and political lives. What we find instead is too many incidents of ill-trained, prejudiced and mean spirited police overreacting to minor or imagined infractions. This does not meet the definition of a "police state." It is the the expected consequence of an electorate that votes for the politician who promises to get tough on crime, get tough on crime, get tough on "illegals" and put more police on the streets. Cries of revolution are idiot-illogic. The problems is that not enough Americans understand the root causes of criminal activities and/or are unwilling to address them.
A better and more constructive name for this thread would indeed be "Fuck the Cops". Better yet, instead of wasting time accusing the U.S.(or a cabal of Wall Street bankers) of directing law enforcement agencies on every level (from the smallest municipality to the FBI) to rigidly and repressively control our social, economic and political lives we could instead discuss those aspects of our social, economic and political lives that encourages the majority of the electorate to vote for more guns, more police, more prisons and tougher policies.
Good thread. It's a topic that we should all be aware of. A few months ago I watched a YouTube vid of a cop beating the Hell out of some poor bastard for no apparent reason. Then I watched another and another and... I was shocked at how many vids like that have been posted. Documentation of police misconduct includes intimidation, threats, brutal violence, false arrest and, all too frequently, death. Most of the time, the offending cops get away with it. Their own departments investigate and clear them. Even when they do get fired, they can usually get hired by another police force. Why does this happen? Because, as someone pointed out, Americans are too complacent or scared to do anything about it.
Armed rebellion ain't the answer. Not nearly enough folks are willing to be that extreme. I think the best thing we can do is demonstrated by the type of vids I mentioned. Pick up a camera and film every police encounter you see. It takes guts - cops are NOT fond of being filmed. Post the ones that show cops 'behaving badly' on the web. It doesn't seem like enough, I know, but it gets the message out. The police are forced to respond. The trend of people filming cops has been a driving force in many police departments putting cameras in patrol cars and even on officers. Cops are less likely to act up when they know they are being filmed.
Check out http://photographyisnotacrime.com/ I think it's an important site. And BE CAREFUL OUT THERE.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
It's not always training either...any type of law enforcement job is going to attract overly macho assholes, people that need to make up for short comings, sadists, etc.
Pedophiles try to get jobs with children...sadists will get attracted to jobs like this. It's the dept's job to weed out the bad apples, but it's impossible to do 100% of the time.
In this particular case, I believe, the officer used a choke hold, that training dictates - can not be used. There were enough officers there that they could have taken him down by his arms...
...but...my argument would have been - why bother with that anyway? -
The man was selling cigarettes.
crime of the century.
Staten Island has plenty of real crime and they focus on this? How about realizing what to go after and what to ignore, to help keep the local community on your side...and it's not trickle down from the administration either, since our Mayor here is now Bill De Blasio...just Google him.
Since the beginning of time, local state, city and town law enforcement has had stories like this, and they always will. But now with cell phones and internet, and other social media, we have more access...a good thing...but that doesn't mean these things all necessarily tie together.
Inherently true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain
Also a very useful trend for training future law enforcement.
One other thing folks - when you see a video or read a story - of a particular incident, don't always take it at face value - do your own research and find out if what you are seeing is the whole story...sometimes it is....sometimes it's not. It's amazing that we have search engines at our finger tips and people still don't use them.
Excellent post Cuchulain...and an excellent suggestion.
The problem is not that we’re a police state (which would imply that these examples of brutality were orchestrated) but rather we’re a nation with too many random and brutal incidences of police misconduct. This is no doubt a result of social ills__some already identified and some yet to be identified.
I’m not sure we can attribute all this emphasis on putting more police on the streets to fear. Yes there’s a lot of fear mongering, but crime is actually down. I don’t meet a lot of voters who are genuinely afraid to walk the streets or are fixated on fear. Most only think about it when it comes up in a political context. What I do meet is people who project testosterone laden personalities. People who like to talk a big game and walk with swagger. People whose reaction to any social ill or problem is to get tough on it. Too much poverty? Those lazy louts should get jobs. Children crossing our southern border? Put more soldiers on the border, increase the number of border guards. Too many drugs? Build more prisons. Establish mandatory sentences.
What America has is an identity crises. We’re a nation of couch potatoes who wannabe tough guys.
cops with dash cams and body cams only go so far - already there is a growing trend to having these cameras suddenly "malfunction"
Such as this officer who shot and killed a 19 yo girl during his 3rd camera malfunction - all 3 "malfunctions" were during incidents involving the use of force...
apparently the rest of the department isnt saying anything - its all internal - so much for judical review and checks and balances - one might even say they protect their own and are above the law but that couldnt happen here - I mean Trish says if it did our elected officials would listen to the voters and these types of incidents would be long gone by now - I better add that was sarcasm or she's likely to misquote me on it in the future.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop...p-malfunction/
The politicians ARE listening. What they're hearing is people want more police, more guards, more prisons and tougher policies. Instead of advocating revolution, I'm suggesting we change our collective attitude. Don't vote for these policies and the numbskulls who advocate them. Currently that would mean voting against the prevailing culture. But hey, you're a rebel; you can do it. But not voting isn't enough. You also have to vote. You got to find your local candidates who support sane policies and support them.
These are more than isolated incidents - they are pervasive - and there is little to no accountability and no checks and balances for the actions of the police. Our freedom of speech is in serious peril - ever notice that when the NRA assembles to protest about gun rights they can be well armed and freely assemble without being hassled by the cops - but if a group assembles to protest a bank or corporation in a peaceful manner its met with a HUGE police response... explain that one to me - Im dying to know...Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I met a lot of voters afraid to walk the streets when the RNC was here in Minneapolis - the mass of the police force was unfreaking real protesters were hassled in their own front yards and told they had to go back inside their homes or take it elsewhere. I wouldnt even drive within a mile of any rally because they were running people in for anything they could find. I know a good number of homeless or minorities who are terrified if they see a squad car - hell Ill Ill walk a block out of my way or at least cross the street if I see a cluster of cops with nothing to do... I dont want to be their entertainment for the evening.
My partner works social outreach and was handing out flyers for food shelters and other social services and she was yanked aside by the cops and told she had to empty her bags (which are big and bright GREEN sampted with STREETWORKS OUTREACH) bacause they said she was passing out drugs - WTF ok first off who just goes around handing out drugs for free - secondly they had no evidence no complaints nothing at all - yet she was told if she didnt want to be detained she had to comply WTF - bullshit bullshit bullshit - I probably would have stood up for my rights and been locked up but she's a bit more reasonable when it comes to unreasonable requests.
Crime is down but prison population is way way way UP - funny how those two numbers dont seem to correlate.... furthermore how do we know crime is down - we have been told that year after year after year - you'd think it would be completely gone just from how many times we have heard it - oh I forget the people who tell us that are the Fucking Police Departments - they supply the numbers. Ever notice the only time "Crime rate is up" is when they want funding ?
Fuck-balls Trish - I thought you were smarter than to buy into all that bullshit.
Really? I see and hear about protests against opressive policing, the NDAA act, the NSA, The TSA and the privacy invasions by all the other 3-4 letter agencies out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I cant recall one single "Please tap my cell phone" or " We want you to read our email " rally.
Who are these politicians listening to - themseves and the millitary industrial complex that has been on the rise in our nation for decades - Eisenhower a strong conservative warned against it because there was a rapid growth in power happening by the financial institutions and corporations - Thomas Jefferson warned against it saying that banks and corporations were more dangerous to our country than any standing army - and that was 200 years ago...
A cabal of wallstreet bankers do exist and wield MASSIVE MASSIVE power there is money in war - Many banks have actually funded BOTH SIDES - do you think the homeland "war on terror" is any different at all - do you have any idea how much money is being made to militarize our police force - who wants that - the people selling the guns and providing the money to buy them of course - IE right back to banks and corporations - OCCUPY understood that and if you ever were a part of that movement you would too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain
Per my previous I just wanted to add this
These are all good points - but the police know we all have a camera in our pockets as part of our cell phones - and yes they really REALLY hate being filmed - You can read it on their faces when the camera comes out - if they thought for a second they could get away with smashing it and running someone in they would - actually they have - it makes the news if the overlook the person with the other camera but it happens.
Now on to the first statement about Americans being too afraid to do anything about the police violence and misconduct - if this was anyone other than the police who used force, fear and intimidation to control or manipulate a population it would be called a terror tactic now wouldn't it?
hell someone else posed in this forum about animal rights activists being charged with domestic terrorism for freeing animals - now why do the police get away with far far worse?
This is one of my favorties...
http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/bo...9bb30f31a.html
If these are incidences of police abuse are neither isolated nor random but orchestrated, then which Wall Street banker ordered the cops to beat up a little old lady? Name some names.
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/i...come-war-zone/
Indiana sheriff wants military vehicles because “the USA has become a war zone”
"The United States of America has become a war zone," said Pulaski County Sheriff Michael Gayer.
Posted on June 9, 2014 by Site Staff in News
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-con...rrior-cops.jpg (Source: Timothy A. Clary/AFP/Getty)
PULASKI COUNTY, IN — As the Department of Defense continues to flood America’s local police departments with military equipment, some cops are letting the propaganda and the free toys go to their heads. One sheriff in Indiana let out a disturbing admission that he views America as a battlefield — making it imperative, in his opinion, to equip his deputies with gear fresh out of the hands of U.S. soldiers fighting overseas.
“The United States of America has become a war zone,” said Pulaski County Sheriff Michael Gayer in an interview with the Indianapolis Star.
His department has received attention after it sought out and acquired a Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle through the Pentagon’s police militarization program.
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-con...er-300x225.jpg Pulaski County (Indiana) Sheriff Michael Gayer (Source: WKVI)
Sheriff Gayer remarked about the MRAP, “It’s a lot more intimidating than a Dodge.”
Pulaski County is extremely rural, containing only 13,124 residents. In 2012, Pulaski County only 11 theft (or larceny) incidents, 1 murder and a grand total of 17 property crimes. Despite this, sprawling farm county has procured hundreds of military items, valued at over $5,000,000.00, under Sheriff Gayer’s leadership. The items, listed in a database at the Indy Star, range from dozens of vehicles, weapons, tactical equipment, bayonets, tools, and more.
Gayer defends the lucrative federal handouts by spreading paranoia about crime in America.
“There’s violence in the workplace, there’s violence in schools and there’s violence in the streets,” said Gayer. “You are seeing police departments going to a semi-military format because of the threats we have to counteract. If driving a military vehicle is going to protect officers, then that’s what I’m going to do.”
Sheriff Gayer elaborates about the perceived battlefronts he faces on the department website: “With the threat of homeland terrorism, rising violence in our schools, drug and alcohol abuse, our society and freedoms that we so dearly cherish are being challenged,” Gayer wrote.
So there we have it. The enemies Pulaski County faces are terrorists, unruly students, and prohibition violators.
“I will do this to the best of my ability and will not allow The Thin Blue Line to weaken by those who would do us harm,” Gayer added on the website.
Larry Thomas, a Hoosier, veteran police officer, and past contributor to Police State USA, wrote the following in response to Sheriff Gayer’s statements:As a retired law enforcement command officer I was dismayed to read the remarks of Pulaski County Sheriff Michael Gayer, who said, “The United States of America has become a war zone. There’s violence in the workplace, there’s violence in schools and there’s violence in the streets.”
During my tenure in law enforcement there was violence in those places too. But it did not motivate us to transform from public servants and peacekeepers into warriors, taking weapons that were designed for foreign battlefields and turning them on the American people.
We were reluctant to deploy SWAT teams, fully realizing the violent response that such a display could provoke and employing such tactics only in the most extreme circumstances. Law enforcement agencies are now eager to deploy such teams even in a total absence of demonstrated need.
Here in my own city of Carmel, an incident occurred, reported in these pages, wherein a SWAT team deployed and terrorized a local family, jamming guns in their faces and dragging them away in handcuffs, based on nothing more than a single, unverified, uncorroborated phone call that a shooting had taken place. The report proved to be false.
This would have been simply impossible in my day. When we received such a phone call we sent officers to the location, and we knocked on the door! Wow! What a revolutionary concept!
No, Sheriff Gayer…The United States of America is NOT a war zone. It is the place where Americans work, live and play. Law enforcement officers who are trained that America is a war zone do not regard citizens as individuals with rights to be protected, but as an enemy to be subjugated. And if the law enforcement profession does not wake up and change this attitude, we, the people, will be forced to call on our legislators to rein you in.
Lieutenant Harry Thomas
Dont be an asshat - thats like asking which general order a soldier so shoot a specific target.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Its more like a big corporation with billiions in funding who is making drones - the military wants the drones - protests are bad for the military getting them and the corporation selling them - this is a huge issue so they go to the local police department and say "you need to get these protesters under control this is massive to our interests" and because the airbase and corporations weild enormous financial power the police jump to it and end up locking up some old lady who was taking pictures to "Send a message" to all other protesters that the police are a force to be reckoned with and basically quell the free speech through intimidation.
Follow the money - always follow the money - greed is the worst thing that ever happened to this world but those who have it always have power.
there are over 18,000,000 empty homes in the US - thats enough for every homless person to have six - yet when a bank wants to foreclose the sherrif and police department hop to it like its their responsibility to put a family on the street and do the banks bidding -
why are the police doing the banks bidding? - this is a civil matter not a criminal matter - this country was founding by people fleeing persecution for debt - and here it is again
In my town, once and sometimes twice a year, the school principal invites the police to come into the school to do a K-9 search of the lockers. This is a ridiculous policy. We have no problem with drugs and the search only ever comes up with Tylenol and cigarettes. I and others have written letters to the paper , the Principal, the local police, the Mayor and others. But the town as a whole believes it's a wonderful thing to do and when it's time to vote for a new police chief, or a Mayor or a school board member they vote for the get tough on drugs candidates. It's not Wall Street bankers directing the K-9 unit to search the school, it's the local school and the cops carrying out a policy endorsed by the electorate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Seriously thats the best you have - a dog and pony show of the school and police being "tough on drugs" twice a year to impress voters.
Weak.
Why do they want to be tough on drugs because its generally popular and its a known "evil" thats an easy target - and there is HUGE funding attached to it. I mean who wants drugs in schools - nobody - it doesnt matter that they never find any and that the cost to do the search is probably in the thousands of dollars per hour - we are afraid of drugs and the crimes that come with them so of course we want to make show about how local LE fights it the fear is so bad that no politician would ever come out against it no matter how useless it is. Fear = Control
How many times do I have to give this lesson - All Wars are Bankers wars - the war on drugs is just the same - its hugely profitable for LE and the industry that supports them and it goes on FOREVER so its like a money machine.
Currently - you mean like the culture of fear we have had for the last 100+ years?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Do you think I dont vote? what gave you that idea?
I just dont believe its capable of doing a damn thing but for the one in a billion chance that it might I trot myself out and go through the motions regardless of my personal lack of faith in the system and I encourage everyone to do the same - I actually did a public service message for one of the Indi TV stations that does a Music video show last election - kinda a rock the vote type thing
Sorry you didn't like the dog & pony show, teach...but your lesson is getting so fucking boring. The police are out of control, not in control. We live in a dysfunctional democratic-republic, not a police state. Gun manufacturers profit from weapons intensive public policies, so of course they'll support and lobby for those policies; but politicians still have to be elected to office on a regular basis. The electorate just happens to love policies that you and I both know will lead to police misconduct. But that one feature alone doesn't make it a police state. And banks...well banks will profit regardless.
And yet apparently you have learned nothingQuote:
Originally Posted by trish
In order for something to be continually out of control those in control must allow it - and that entity isn't the public.
The public does not in any way shape or form "Love the Polices" that lead to police misconduct - they FEAR the alternative...
And that my dear is a Huge difference.
I keep saying , that the USA is Indeed in the beginning stages of becoming a police state. Will it ever become a full fledged true to wikipedia definition of Police State, Police State? Perhaps.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...-Police-State#
is it Nazi era Germany already? fuck no, even suggesting that is truly ludicrous.
can the rise of police brutality , erosion of liberties, objectionable foreign and domestic policies , and not evaluating, assessing, and adjusting to these lead to a police state? Yes.
Thanks for the link - great readQuote:
Originally Posted by my my my!
another little tidd bit - the number of Americans killed by cops now out numbers the number of American soldiers killed during the Iraq War during virtually the same time span
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/ame...lled-iraq-war/
Throughout this thread I often thought, “What the fuck! This disagreement simply hinges on the definition of “police state. Why don’t I just agree to the non-standard use which you’re applying and get on with a discussion of the root causes of increased police misconduct in the U.S.?”
The problem is that ultimately the disagreement is not semantic. I think the root causes lie with the electorate and American culture. I see the profiteering of banks and arms manufacturers as a synergistic, not as primary or first causes. Tempest, I believe, portrays the gun manufacturers and the bankers not only as primary causative agents of police misconduct, but as deliberately acting via that misconduct to control our political beliefs.
To me that’s just loony. But if that were the only bone of contention, I could leave the argument as is and agree to disagree. But the one facet of Tempest’s point of view that I cannot abide is her contention that the only solution to the current spate of misconduct is to go outside the law. She claims this cannot be fixed with ink on paper. We need to (if I read her correctly) sidestep democratic procedure (perhaps peacefully through general strikes as in Iceland, or perhaps otherwise) and force the government to “resign.” Only then can we set up a government that writes the banks out of power and only then can we reboot the nation.
To me this unconstitutional action sounds not only unnecessary, but like the utmost folly. Unnecessary because it can be fixed with appropriate legislation and oversight. Folly, because of all the people it will destroy who depend on government services, safety nets and jobs. Folly because it’ll never happen. Folly because should it happen that we shut the government and force all our representatives to resign, it would likely result in an actual police state. It’s like firing the government before we get a chance to elect a Hitler to office...like there won’t be any powers (say within our own military) willing to sweep in to fill the vacuum.
We could continue this thread by discussing what are the real root causes of police misconduct, the roots causes of crime and why we think we need so many enforcement agencies and police. But we’re not going to go there because we’ll always come back to the fantasy that our minds are being controlled and manipulated by mass media who in turn are bought by Wall Street bankers and the only way to defeat those mind controlling Wall Street bankers is to overturn the Government.
And so we find ourselves at an impasse.
"To me this unconstitutional action sounds not only unnecessary, but like the utmost folly."Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
You DO realize that the action your describing is exactly how this country was founded...
Irony... do you taste it?
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/...sh-5626425.php
BRIDGEPORT -- A state trooper, caught on his own dashboard camera stealing a dying motorcyclist's cash and gold crucifix, is facing up to a year and a half in prison.
Aaron "AJ" Huntsman, a 19-year veteran of the State Police, pleaded guilty Wednesday afternoon under the Alford Doctrine to third-degree larceny and tampering with evidence -- both felonies.
Although Huntsman, 45, could have faced up to 10 years in prison on the two charges, Superior Court Judge Robert Devlin said he would impose a term in prison of 16 months, followed by five years of probation.
Huntsman's lawyer, Ryan McGuigan, does have the right to argue for a lesser term when Huntsman is sentenced Oct. 3.
Huntsman walked out of the courtroom with a big smile on his face following the hearing. He declined comment.
---
Here's the kicker TWO felonies - guilty - and only gets 16 months PLUS he gets to plead for a lesser penalty during sentencing -
No wonder he's smiling - he's getting a better deal than anyone else could possibly hope for.
The system Does NOT correct itself - this is barely a slap on the wrist and the ONLY reason its happening at all is because he's caught completely on video... otherwise it would never have even been investigated - civilians who question cops actions are completely ignored unless there is so much evidence that it gains public outcry then they do their little judicial dance like this one and make it quietly go away for with as minor of a sentence as possible
Meanwhile in America