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yes and no, Islamism is NOT Islam to me too. I have had good Muslim friends and co-workers since young adulthood (1980). However, the `moderates' must speak up! Denouncing this selfish sect(s) of Islam. This can be compared to Christians having a selfish (and associated violence and hate) interpretation of the Bible, of which can be seen in neo-nazis, et al. We, in the West cannot just `let them be'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
How do you or I know, who is speaking up, or who isn't? Right after 9/11 a video was shown on television with what looked to be 7-8 Arabs (assumed to be Muslim) looking people celebrating. We dont know in reality that they were even celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers. More people remember that video than remember that 100,000 people in Tehran who gathered for a candlelight vigil in support of the US victims. And some things are so obvious we should know they are not supported by religious doctrine. No one has mentioned the religious affiliation of the recent school shooter. Would a Muslim want to live in the US, if he believed that people should be stoned to death for adultery? One thing you can do is to do some research for yourself. For example you could ask a question in Google and view the responses from knowledgeable scholars. When I did this, I found documentation for about everything thing good, I believed had to be true in the Koran. An important fact to understand, is that Sunni Islam does not have a centralized leadership, that could speak out publicly on issues, I'm told. Given the corporate ownership of US media, we need to be critical of the quality of news we receive, if we value a greater truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer1
It's interesting to read this thread and see to what lengths certain well-meaning multiculturalists will go to defend the indefensible.
Especially those coming from the UK. Quite a bunch of zealots.
Not certain, exactly what you say others were defending. No one here has defended rape, that I remember. So it's has to be the Muslim youth part. Am I right?Quote:
Originally Posted by tragicomedy
Yoda - ill advised to respond to this palpable racist. i did but thought better of it.
So... If you grow red, white, & blue mold in the same petri dish, does that make you a "multiculturalist"?
Oh, kind of like the fool who said I pulled the link from a White supremacist website but turned out to be completely wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
You are such a typical, nasty little reactionary.
Not only that, but so passive agressive. It's good that you deleted your posts because you were scared of the wrong reaction. Then you "advise" people not to reply.
What a coward you are, to put that on top of being wrong and unable to defend your disgusting arguments.
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Originally Posted by Prospero
Or a petriot...Quote:
Originally Posted by hippifried
What's a petriot?
Dunno, but petriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. :dancing:Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Tragicomedy - no i was not wrong. Your sources were massively flawed ones. Like your views. Many others here have taken you to task for your views. I am sorry to see you've slitered back from whatever stone you hide under.
And reactionary?. What an absurd word for a Muslim hating racist like you to use.
I am perfectly happy to debate, but not with a obvious racist like you. In the UK most parties of right and left refuse to share a platform with the British National Party and, before that, the National Front - organisations with, at heart, a racist agenda.. The views of these parties and yours are congruent. Yes i deleted my reactions to your stupidity because i knew it would bring forth a torrent of bile from you. As it has.
This is what I wrote a few weeks ago and I stand by it: "tragicomedy... so freedom of speech means the freedom to vilify whole groups in the way you do? Hatespeech is good speech is it? Why in every response to the person from Turkey do you feel it necessary to refer to the Armenian genocide as if that is the only thing you know about Turkey? While you're at it why not start banging on about the Ottoman empire? Janissaries and the like? Or perhaps you'd like to refer to the glorious and civilising influence of the Ottoman's at their zenith? To the great Mosque architects like Sinan?
As I see it your vilification of Muslims is emblematic of an obsessive fear transmuting into hatred of islam. Get some education about the religion and then you might be able to make some intelligent contributions to the discussion.
As others have noted even if the attackers WERE Muslim, what does that prove? Do we identity other rapists as Christians or atheists or Hindu or whatever? Do burglars who happen to be Muslim get labelled as such? I don't think so. You jumped into this to support the labelling of these people Muslim because it plays to a false stereotype pedalled by haters - in whose number you are clearly included."
This thread was flogged to death at the time; bury it.
I agree Stavros.
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Originally Posted by robertlouis
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Originally Posted by trish
I'm glad someone understood it.
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Originally Posted by Prospero
NOW you back track and say you weren't wrong.
The truth doesn't matter to you does it? Is it all relative to you?
Prospero never said he was wrong. He merely changed his mind about engaging you. Please refrain fron mischaracterising others and confine your attention to the issue.
Thanks Trish. But, no... tragicomedy has got, amidst his tirades of racist filth, one thing right. I said the sites he quoted were like Der Sturmer. I later said that was not the case. He consistently relied on flawed and anti-Muslim sites however. And his posts were certainly worthy of that esteemed journal. His ludicrous and hateful remarks about Muslims reveal him to be a noxious and unrelenting racist. About that i was 100 per cent right. Now tragicomedy shut up and go back to the rank place you crawled out off. Your ignorance has no place here.
I understood it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tragicomedy
I traveled much of Europe in 2003 and found the anti-Muslim sentiment almost jarring, mostly because I was naive more than as an American I had some illusion that this type of hatred existed. My country has a long and bitter history of find what separates us as human beings rather than what brings us together as human beings.
The politics of fundamentalism cloud issues, most notably in the case a Islam in recent times. But the fundamentalists in Israel who persecute Palestinians or the Christians who have over history engaged in poor behavior based on the object of their hatreds race, sexual orientation or religious beliefs are wrong in doing so and have lost touch with the core of their religions actual teachings.
Whether this crime was motivated by Islamic sentiment, homophobia and bizarre behavior is not the exclusive property of those followers.
The issue will continue to man's inhumanity to man for the most simple minded reasons when we look back at those reasons but at the moment in the mind of the inflictors of hate, their reasons seemed clear and had divine backing.
Tragicomedy's tactic it is to let someone write three or four paragraphs of thoughtful prose and then respond with two or three sentences to keep his thread alive. Then claim he has not been proven wrong, that others are reactionaries or multi-culturalists who will not accept the real truth which he does nothing to establish. This is a way to keep a debate alive forever and claim he gave as good as he got.Quote:
Originally Posted by tragicomedy
The thread is ugly but it serves one useful function; as a monument to one man's racism, stupidity, and resistance to reason. Surely it's a warning to anyone who would interact with him on cordial terms elsewhere. We could rename it, the scarlet letter;.
Actually he did say he was wrong several posts ago. He had to admit it as he had made that smear out of whole cloth with no evidence to back it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
It would be nice if you actually read posts before telling me what to do.
I LOVE when P.C. reactionaries fall over themselves to attack. It's not my thread, I didn't start it.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
Like Trish and Prospero, you failed to do the simplest bit of reading before attacking.
Isn't it great when p.c zealots and multiculturalists show their true colors? Saves me a lot of time.
"with two or three sentences to keep his thread alive. Then claim he has not been proven wrong, that others are reactionaries or multi-culturalists who will not accept the real truth which he does nothing to establish. This is a way to keep a debate alive forever and claim he gave as good as he got."Quote:
Originally Posted by tragicomedy
This is your thread even if you didn't start it. You wrote four sentence fragments and a question. While this is more than the two or three sentences I predicted, the content is depressingly familiar and devoid of any sort of argument. Are you capable of writing an argument without excessive reliance on the words "zealot, multi-culturalist (a euphemism for not being a racist), and reactionary"? Try initiating some thought and writing a useful, fleshed-out argument.
Did it occur to you that your quibble has done nothing to change my argument and in fact reinforces it; you have confined yourself to being a pest, you have not made a substantive argument in several pages, and you have been out-argued by more than a half dozen posters. Many of these individuals have made intelligent and forceful arguments and your rebuttals have been piss-poor. But since you have no shame, no decency, and are incapable of rational thought, this thread continues. Please another gratuitous line or two about how the rest of civilized society is composed of reactionaries.
I realize I've fallen into the trap. This shithead does not have an interest in any other political or religious matters and so not responding to this thread will ensure his timely extinction here. Good riddance. :loser:
No he doesn't have any interest in debate. His true colours were visible in his first few posts where he talks of islam and sexual attacks. No evidence offered. Just smears. He unthinkingly buys into all the worst prejudices against Muslims and posts messages designed to inspire hatred against an entire faith group - with no evidence to support his claims. He then goes into a cloudburst of camouflage trying to insult those of us with knowledge about the subject. PC zealots and multiculturalists being his choice terms to dismiss those who do not unthinkingly accept racist or cultural stereotypes. His thinking is, as i said before, the perfect fit for the sort of cultural stereotyping that end up in atrocities. Hence my reference to Der Sturmer.
TC, your post #141 is unnecessary having been superseded by P's post#137. It would be nice if you actually understood the prior posts before
I'm so sorry that you are as blinded by your hatred as I am supported in my trust in all peoples.Quote:
...telling me what to do.
I agree with you. Sometimes when I am searching Jewish community issues I run into white supremacist sites and what I'm always amazed about is the self-pity. They say the nastiest things and then when challenged claim they are being persecuted. When they make claims the rebuttals are often so obvious that they should have been aware of them while writing. Cognitive dissonance, resistance to new facts, inability to judge their own actions by the same standards they use to judge others. Bad faith. It's as though their agenda has taken possession of their soul and rendered them incapable of the most basic human decency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
Wow, do you and your ilk lack self awareness or what?Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
What do you think your buddies have been doing in this thread? They seem to be more interested in prior restraint (typical of p.c. reactionaries) than actual debate. That's the part that's tiring.
Oh and in the outside chance that you have a shred of honesty, go back a few pages and notice that I'm the only person who actually bothered to look up the story and see what local bloggers were saying about the incident. I also noticed how much the BBC seemed to be leaving out and that this is not the first incident of it's kind in Europe with the same ethnic combination in victim and victimizer.
Your buddy Prospero offered NOTHING but attacks and then made the claim that I was providing a link to a nazi site. Showing that he hadn't even bothered to check the link that he was denying out of hand.
I then pivoted to the disproportionately high number of Muslim on non-Muslim gang rapes of minors in his country and that really set him off. It's very hard for the Left in the UK to defend it's track record when these incidents keep coming up again and again. To the point where a former British Foreign Secretary had to bring it up to get the media to address the matter.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/87...ani-rape-gangs
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...at-remark.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...at-remark.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...re-easy-173743
and again...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-arrests.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003
then..
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_2128305.html
The sad part is that this has been documented for years and years before Jack Straw made his comments.
British social services had even participated in a documentary that featured discussion of this phenomenon but guess what, pressure from multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off the air.
That's the end result of Left wingers trying to shut down discussion.
I'm the only one who even offered evidence and YOU decided to lie about it. Yet again, it's great to shine that mirror on you disgusting hypocrites. You will literally say anything to defend your world view. Even contradict yourself one post after the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
That's the galling part, NO Evidence?? What the heck, I'm the only one who even tried to do such a thing and you decided to lie about me.
Welcome back. Got more hatred for Muslims today to offer?
Where is the evidence for your assertion that "multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off air."
In truth a ciuple of years ago I led a team that spent a significant amount of time investigating the challenges faced by the Muslim community in the UK - and the challenge they present to the wider community. The key issues are islamophobia (of the sort your postings are symptomatic) and an recruitment of young second generation young Muslims by jihdists. There is clearly a link between the two - and this is a serious issue within the community.
The appalling case you provide links to implicates a group of men for whom no one can make any apology and who have been condemned by the Muslim community itself. The fact of their shared "faith" proves what exactly? For people of your prejudiced view, this seems to be that Muslims are all racists and sex criminals (as you suggest in your opening posts) and that there are innumerable other cases. Again no evidence. The faith of these men was irrelevent. There are plenty of sex crimes, by Christians for instance, which do not the get used to characterise Christians as prone to sex rimes because of their faith. Homophobic crimes by christians in the US which do not lead us to conclude that all Christians are homophobic and likely to go beating up or killing gay people.
And by the way Jack Straw's attitude to Islam is pretty controversial and ignorant.. A few years back he suggested that Muslim women should not be allowed to wear the veil.
I stand fully by my labelling of you as a hater.
Finally... Tragicomedy repeatedly claims he posted news sources. in fact he posted links to blogs - a pretty unreliable source of information. He then interpreted people of north african origin to mean Muslims. And then by extension assumed that it was their common religious identity (if there was one) that led to their behaviour. And when challenged by a Turkish member resorted to reference to the Armenian genocide (as if that is in any way relevant to the discussion at all). Here are his opening salvoes on the subject.
"Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest."
"Translations on the web state that the offenders were the children of North African immigranta almost all.of.whom are Morrocan. Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people."
"No. You are the idiot and a person so wedded to ideology that you would shut down discussion of rape and groups that are more.willing to publicly sanction.it. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves for enabling people who show no respect for Western.countries. Your cowardice is disgusting."
"Fool. Take a look at the youth population of Belgium and what % is Muslim. The rapists,.were teenagers.of.North African origin. If.you dont want to.face the truth, fine. But you are not corrrect in trying to stop.others from talking.about it."
What is tiring, tragicomedy is dealing with your phoney argument -you divert attention away from the issue at the core of your argument, by labelling people and identifying the cause of their crimes as their religion when your real purpose is to condemn immigration as a catastrophe for the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by tragicomedy
It is not about 'the left' shutting down debates about 'multiculturalism', it is about your agenda in which immigration is halted immediately, in which Human Rights legislation is scrapped and along with it any right of any person to claim political asylum in the UK, and ideally, over time, the UK leaving the EU, the expulsion of Muslims from the UK, and at a later stage by the expulsion of 'the Blacks'.
It is so tiring to have to go back over all the evidence of prejudice against identified 'outsiders' that I don't intend to do it. You have decided that the UK, or maybe it's just England, once had a definable character, and that this sense of being English has been eroded by 'mass immigration' and membership of the EU, and you don't like it. Nobody likes crime, whether it is carrried out by Muslims, Jews, Italians, Gypsies, or for that matter the Richardsons and the Krays -the causes of crime are not linked to the colour of a person's skin or their religious heritage, so maybe you could take a few steps beyond identifying the 'causes of crime' and offer a solution.
Oh... Evidence...Quote:
Originally Posted by tragicomedy
So if you have 5 apples & 3 oranges, how many jalapeños do you need to make a banana cream pie?
WHAT????? You don't know the answer? You probably forgot to carry the peach to the next column. (Tomatoes only work if posted after the first week of the month in base 11) It rhymes with purple, & I'm sure it's evidence of something somewhere. Might even hold up in blog court. Careful! Knowledge of this sort of "evidence" can get you elected king of your padded cell.
BTW: As long as we're rewriting the dictionary, can we just change the meaning of "irrelevant" to not fucking your sister?
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Originally Posted by Prospero
It's a key part of the history of Islam but it doesn't mean that it's something that Muslims cannot erase. Those men are continuing a practice that started with their Prophet's companions.
But it's not a solely Muslim phenomenon, something you and I would both admit.
It's a tribal and supremacist phenomenon. In the case of these men, they view non-Muslims as the lesser tribe to be subjugated and humiliated.
The odd thing is that this type of behavior occurs in a country where they are a vulnerable, visible minority.
In Pakistan, these men prey on Sikhs, Christians, Hindus and minority Muslim sects that have been labeled as Kafirs. These groups live under constant threat of violence and have little recourse from the police.
But in Britain, they are targeting the children of the indigenous, super-majority population. This is enabled by multiculturalists LIKE YOURSELF who have put ideology before safety. Who are so obsessed with protecting the "other" that you would make the police and politicians feel they have to be silent about paedophile gangs for fear of being labeled racist, and all the loss of social standing that label brings forth.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...inorities.html
Documentary throws a bad light at Muslim community in UK - YouTube
It looks like forcing you to confront an ugly truth is the only thing that would get you to address the issue. If only you multiculturalists were more honest in other situations, I guess it takes years of kids being gangraped and trafficked for you to address the subject.
You're so used to just intimidating people into silence, but somethings can't be kept quiet forever.
Mr Shafiq described the child predators as “sick and evil”, adding: “The time for ill-informed racial sensitivities on this needs to be stopped and we need immediate implementation of all elements of a new, positive action plan.”
Former MP for Keighley, Anne Cryer (pictured top left), told Parliament’s influential Home Affairs Select Committee in January 2013 that gangs of Pakistani men were allowed to prey on vulnerable young white girls for years in Bradford and Keighley, because authorities, including West Yorkshire Police, were “terrified of being called racist”.
Ann Cryer, who was MP for Keighley for 13 years before stepping down in 2010, said there had been a total failure by local police, social services, schools and hospitals in West Yorkshire to work together to address the mounting evidence of child sex exploitation that emerged a decade ago. “There has to be inter-agency working – and that wasn’t happening then”.
She added “West Yorkshire Police, Bradford Council, social services, schools, hospitals even – because abortions were taking place – none of them were working together. None of them were giving information“.
During his three months in office so far, and particularly after Anne Cryer’s evidence to the HASC, there has been no press announcement from the West Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner, Mark Burns-Williamson. It is highly relevant to point out that he was West Yorkshire Police Authority Chairman from 2003 to 2012. Throughout the whole of that period child grooming in Bradford and Keighley was tolerated
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Originally Posted by hippifried
That's a whole post full of nothing, yet you think you're funny. I can see that you're angry though. Good, if you see a little of yourself in the scumbag Left wingers who put their ideology above the safety of children, maybe you'll change.
I'm not part of the Groups that pushed to keep that documentary off the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
I'm not one of the people that made a climate of multiculturalism and political correctness SO dangerous for people who don't tow the line that POLICE OFFICERS and CPS officials would rather keep quiet rather than speak out about a terrible series of crimes with a long and wide-ranging history.
As for Immigration.... I am an immigrant. What else can you be wrong about Stavros?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
There you go, lying again. They were not all blogs. I pulled a blog in the local language because it identifies the perpetrators as North Africans, something YOU folks were even trying to dispute. Well over 80% of the immigrants from North Africa are Muslim and the small Jewish, Christian and secularist population has almost NO criminal record to speak of while the Muslim community is extremely over represented in crimes.
Other reports list the subjects as Muslim for that reason. Not to mention known Muslim perpetrators in countless other cases both in Europe, Australia and the Middle East while the North African Jewish and Christian immigrant communities have almost no known cases of them gangraping non-Jews or non-Christians of other communities.
But hey, what else are you going to try and lie about?
Maybe you'll move on to downplaying kids being gangraped and trafficked again, like your fellow muliticulturalists.
No crime is too despicable for you to cover up for, is it?
Putting freedom and rights before safety: hmm that would be something the NRA has in common with multiculturalists (at least according to one crazed, anonymous observer). See, there is always common ground. :)
Enough Tragicomedy. You are a fascist and a hater. Pure and simple. Do you know what the BNP is? (who describe this programme as a party political broadcast? They are a right wing racist party.) The decision to hold it back was clearly correct. You are hugely ignorant of everything other than trying to stir up hatred. The clip you posted made it very clear that this is an inflammatory programme as are your remarks. They are also libellous. How dare you suggest that people who are culturally sensitive condone this vile crime and actually downplay and cover it up. Your general ignorance with regard to Islam and the Muslim community is simply staggering.
You describe yourself as an immigrant? From where to where?
Still not fuckin' your sister, Tragicomedy?
So how did a story about a grown man in drag getting gang-banged by a bunch of teenagers turn into a rant about organized pimps that somehow is supposed to have something to do with protecting children from Islam & multiculturalism & other things that grate on the nerves of the UK's version of klan/nazis? No need to answer. It's rhetorical.