Somali Pirates Are So Dumb. LOL & Double LOL

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by trish

So you choose to take seriously a scenario which I intentionally entitled an “amusing solution”; i.e. one not to be taken seriously. You even twist your language to make it appear the pirates are carrying out my “multimillion dollar toll idea.” How can we believe anything you have to offer on this subject when you’re so willing to cherry pick and misstate other people’s positions?

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Surely you did not expect anyone to take your trite analogy seriously, but who except a very flippant person would joke like this, even as people lay dead or are still held captive?
Car-jackers are about the closest thing on land to which pirates can be compared. If a series of car-jackings had resulted in the sort of mayhem we've seen over the past few months, would you callously call the car-jackers something benign and suggest they were entitled to their crimes, as you did with the pirates.
Go back and read your posts.

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Originally Posted by trish

In these posts I have not lamented anyone’s grief and I have not offered my sympathies to anyone. Do you really think this is the place for lamentations? There have been half a dozen posts in thread that have boasted that no one will miss three dead pirates. I pointed out those claims may be false, and for that I’m disrespectful of the families of the abducted and not offering them their fair share of sympathy!

What bugs you, phobun, is that someone would dare pipe up and ruin the fun while everyone is shouting about how we kicked ass and killed some no good fuckers. I’m impressed, you’re a real man.

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Your last statement is blatantly dishonest. Try to find where I was revelling in the bloodlust. Take note of my preface in the last thread, where I wrote that it is sad the 3 teens died.

I still maintain that you're a not-very-bright sheep who took up for pirates.

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In the name of Allah most beneficent ever merciful.

I performed a Salat-l-Istikhara, and opend my Quran to whatever page god guided me to. This was the only quranic arabic text that appeared. Chapter 12 "Surat ul Yusuf" verse 111

In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it, and a distinct explanation of all things, and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.

I am going to share with trish in private with the rest of the board.... I just cant let her stew any longer..

"A bit of what I get on here when I talk of my faith."

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To most in NYC I suppose Islam is just two buildings falling. The roots of this board are a community of NYC transsexuals. Out in middle America it is not much different, though here it is based on racism.

Trish, it's not about actions, it's about the fact that those Pirates face Mecca and pray to god (whenever they occasion to pray). It is about Islam, Muslims, and the way we are thought of by the LGBT and gay friendly west.

In a sense you stood where I have stood here.

Here is my advice Rolling Eyes your eyes and ignore their ignorance.... for to so many average joe Muslim on the street of mogadishou is not a person with needs and dreams they are just a terrorist...even if average joe Muslim is just a child.

That is just the way HA, and the gay community are.

Thankyou for trying to talk to these people as if the Somalis were actual people, I am afraid that it is fruitless.

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I wonder how the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie will do in light of this? Hell there's still piracy there .... Or how about the next annual talk like a pirate day arrrh. :roll: I guess it's cute as long as the pirate's not saying Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!

These are the histories and we are paying the price. Our culture made light of pirates, and the reasons they plundered in the past. We called them Robin Hood, we called them sir Francis Drake, Christian Anglo-Saxon Hero's. Our culture ignored its own history.... Then when we saw the chaos in Somalia, a country that resents foreign influence as much as we ourselves do... What did we do? Send in the military. When we saw them still poor and desperate what did we do? Freeze their assets, all of the assets of all of the people just because maybe 10 Arabs there might possibly someday hurt us. When they did start to put together a government based on the one thing all Somalis agree on...the rule of Shari'a law....a government which for a time actually stopped the piracy and beheaded those it caught in the act.. what did we do? Help the Christian Ethiopians invade and reintroduce chaos to a muslim land!

The piracy we see now is not our fault, but it is a confirmation of the results of our actions, and the actions of a whole world which has ignored a country or even punished it for standing on it's principle, submission to gods will. The only will Somalis will ever agree they should submit to. The only thing that can unite them, govern them, and end this accursed piracy for good.

Peace.

Well you and trish are two peas in a pod, aren't you. Calling pirates Robin Hood? are you stupid or just crazy? No one in our culture ever referred to pirates as Robin Hood. To these people steal from the rich and give it back to their community or steal from anyone they can and keep it for themselves? If you can't answer that correctly, I ask again. Are you stupid or just crazy?

as for you trish, it's obviously you are so ignorant no one could change your values. All I can say to your dumb, arrogant ass, is your values are twisted and you respect all the wrong people. You value pirates lives over honest, hard-working Americans' lives. You can't justify these things that are morally wrong and you are morally wrong.

Also, you are the belligerent one.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by MacShreach

Hopefully we shall see a bit less of the unwarranted prejudice shown against the French, for a day or two or so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8000447.stm

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Thank you!
The french were and are our FIRST ally!
Just because certain ethnic minorities in this country dont like the french does not me we all have to.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by trish

So you choose to take seriously a scenario which I intentionally entitled an “amusing solution”; i.e. one not to be taken seriously. You even twist your language to make it appear the pirates are carrying out my “multimillion dollar toll idea.” How can we believe anything you have to offer on this subject when you’re so willing to cherry pick and misstate other people’s positions?

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Surely you did not expect anyone to take your trite analogy seriously, but who except a very flippant person would joke like this, even as people lay dead or are still held captive?
Car-jackers are about the closest thing on land to which pirates can be compared. If a series of car-jackings had resulted in the sort of mayhem we've seen over the past few months, would you callously call the car-jackers something benign and suggest they were entitled to their crimes, as you did with the pirates.
Go back and read your posts.

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Originally Posted by trish

In these posts I have not lamented anyone’s grief and I have not offered my sympathies to anyone. Do you really think this is the place for lamentations? There have been half a dozen posts in thread that have boasted that no one will miss three dead pirates. I pointed out those claims may be false, and for that I’m disrespectful of the families of the abducted and not offering them their fair share of sympathy!

What bugs you, phobun, is that someone would dare pipe up and ruin the fun while everyone is shouting about how we kicked ass and killed some no good fuckers. I’m impressed, you’re a real man.

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Your last statement is blatantly dishonest. Try to find where I was revelling in the bloodlust. Take note of my preface in the last thread, where I wrote that it is sad the 3 teens died.

I still maintain that you're a not-very-bright sheep who took up for pirates.

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In the name of Allah most beneficent ever merciful.

I performed a Salat-l-Istikhara, and opend my Quran to whatever page god guided me to. This was the only quranic arabic text that appeared. Chapter 12 "Surat ul Yusuf" verse 111

In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it, and a distinct explanation of all things, and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.

I am going to share with trish in private with the rest of the board.... I just cant let her stew any longer..

"A bit of what I get on here when I talk of my faith."

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To most in NYC I suppose Islam is just two buildings falling. The roots of this board are a community of NYC transsexuals. Out in middle America it is not much different, though here it is based on racism.

Trish, it's not about actions, it's about the fact that those Pirates face Mecca and pray to god (whenever they occasion to pray). It is about Islam, Muslims, and the way we are thought of by the LGBT and gay friendly west.

In a sense you stood where I have stood here.

Here is my advice Rolling Eyes your eyes and ignore their ignorance.... for to so many average joe Muslim on the street of mogadishou is not a person with needs and dreams they are just a terrorist...even if average joe Muslim is just a child.

That is just the way HA, and the gay community are.

Thankyou for trying to talk to these people as if the Somalis were actual people, I am afraid that it is fruitless.

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I wonder how the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie will do in light of this? Hell there's still piracy there .... Or how about the next annual talk like a pirate day arrrh. :roll: I guess it's cute as long as the pirate's not saying Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!

These are the histories and we are paying the price. Our culture made light of pirates, and the reasons they plundered in the past. We called them Robin Hood, we called them sir Francis Drake, Christian Anglo-Saxon Hero's. Our culture ignored its own history.... Then when we saw the chaos in Somalia, a country that resents foreign influence as much as we ourselves do... What did we do? Send in the military. When we saw them still poor and desperate what did we do? Freeze their assets, all of the assets of all of the people just because maybe 10 Arabs there might possibly someday hurt us. When they did start to put together a government based on the one thing all Somalis agree on...the rule of Shari'a law....a government which for a time actually stopped the piracy and beheaded those it caught in the act.. what did we do? Help the Christian Ethiopians invade and reintroduce chaos to a muslim land!

The piracy we see now is not our fault, but it is a confirmation of the results of our actions, and the actions of a whole world which has ignored a country or even punished it for standing on it's principle, submission to gods will. The only will Somalis will ever agree they should submit to. The only thing that can unite them, govern them, and end this accursed piracy for good.

Peace.

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Creating walls based on religion is for demagogues.
Religious superstition is for stupid people.

Aren't you a wannabe physicist? Science might be a better way for you to help the world, and more focus and a little diligence might help your academic endeavors.

SucksAlot states,

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as for you trish, it's obviously you are so ignorant no one could change your values. All I can say to your dumb, arrogant ass, is your values are twisted and you respect all the wrong people. You value pirates lives over honest, hard-working Americans' lives. You can't justify these things that are morally wrong and you are morally wrong.

Also, you are the belligerent one.

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My, what enlightened eloquence! I am shamed by your, shall I say, non-belligerent display of superior wisdom.

In defense of my dumb, ignorant ass I can only reiterate my position as I’ve stated it before:

From my very first post in this thread my complaint has been about the bloodlust and belligerence of a certain segment “onlookers” following this particular event. I admit nothing pushes my buttons like a collection of boisterous, belligerent assholes. Now I understand no one wants to be interrupted while they’re cheering the deaths of three scumbags the world will never miss. So chiming in was a mistake. For not sharing in the blood lust, I been berated for sympathizing with the pirates, not sympathizing with the abductees, insulting the abductees (as if they’re regulars visitors to HA), allowing hypothetical thieves to steal me blind without so much as firing a shot, accusing the U.S. Navy of belligerence, etc. etc.

Well, [I'm] happy to say the Navy wasn’t belligerent and the innocent escaped peril. Still the outcome is not a happy one. Three people, who might have lived, died. It’s their own fault, yes. I don’t dispute that. But that’s no cause for celebration. Somalia is a tragic State. It’s been in economic ruin for decades. It seems a common place to subscribe to the Somali pirates the motive of “greed”. I think that’s probably correct. Yet I think it is a greed born out of deprivation. “Oh shit, there she goes again sympathizing with the enemy!” No, attempting to understand the deeper motivations of behavior is not sympathizing. It’s just the rational thing to do if you want to solve social, political and economic problems. The unfortunate deaths did not solve anything but the most immediate problem, saving the innocent life of Capt. Phillips. I will trust the Navy sniper’s judgment that that was the only solution to the immediate problem as it came to a head. But those deaths will only exasperate the problems of piracy off the coast of Somalia. I don’t think any amount Naval power can keep those waters safe until something is done to lift Somalia out of it economic situation.

I will add that Capt. Phillips’ role was a heroic one. Not because he fought, but because he negotiated with the privateers. He negotiated his abduction for the lives and freedom of his crew. He could have refused to negotiate or cooperate in any way. He could have ordered his men to fight. He didn’t.

The above is a fair statement of my perspective on this whole affair. If you find this belligerent, or offensive, or stupid, or un-American, or naïve etc. then I'm sorry my assessment doesn’t measure up to those who have a clearer grasp of right and wrong than do I.

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Originally Posted by trish

Yet I think it is a greed born out of deprivation. “Oh shit, there she goes again sympathizing with the enemy!” No, attempting to understand the deeper motivations of behavior is not sympathizing.

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You do the vast majority of the world's poor people a disservice when you justify the crimes of a few pirates. Most poor people are actually good people, and most would probably not want to rationalize the actions of bullies who fire automatic weapons at innocent civilians, then hold them hostage for money.

Besides, there are quite a lot of "rich" people who are greedy, including the warlords who arm African teenagers. Will you rationalize and excuse the greed of these warlords, so long as they started out economically deprived?

Where in that line you quoted do I "justify" anything, let alone the "crimes of a few pirates." Try reading for understanding before making accusations. I wrote that to solve social, political and economic problems one needs to UNDERSTAND the deeper motivatons of behavior. I didn't say one needs to rationalize. I didn't say one needs to justify. I didn't say one needs to sympathize, nor did I say one needs to excuse. The distinctions between these words are not so subtle that they are readily confused lest one is intent on misleading, misdirection and obfuscation.

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Originally Posted by Suckalot1

Well you and trish are two peas in a pod, aren't you. Calling pirates Robin Hood? are you stupid or just crazy? No one in our culture ever referred to pirates as Robin Hood. To these people steal from the rich and give it back to their community or steal from anyone they can and keep it for themselves? If you can't answer that correctly, I ask again. Are you stupid or just crazy?

as for you trish, it's obviously you are so ignorant no one could change your values. All I can say to your dumb, arrogant ass, is your values are twisted and you respect all the wrong people. You value pirates lives over honest, hard-working Americans' lives. You can't justify these things that are morally wrong and you are morally wrong.

Also, you are the belligerent one.

Thank you.

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Idiot. I never said the pirates were robin hood. I said that robin hood, and other white Christian thieving bastards that you are taught as children are great guys were no different from these pirates.

Also I did not say the pirates lives were more valuable than an Americans... but a life is a life is a life. All life is precious.

As for being arrogant sir. I believe what 1 Billion other people, all kinds of people, from people "whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white,"* To transsexuals every bit as lovely as any HHA or pageant queen in the west http://www.insideindonesia.org/content /view/624/47. Compare those realities with the racist, Islamophobic, it's true because you saw it on CNN and MSNBC kind of way you found out about Islam!

*Those who wish to call me ignorant of Islam must honestly be able to tell me where that quote is from without using goggle. It should be extremely obvious.

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Originally Posted by trish

Where in that line you quoted do I "justify" anything, let alone the "crimes of a few pirates." Try reading for understanding before making accusations. I wrote that to solve social, political and economic problems one needs to UNDERSTAND the deeper motivatons of behavior. I didn't say one needs to rationalize. I didn't say one needs to justify. I didn't say one needs to sympathize, nor did I say one needs to excuse. The distinctions between these words are not so subtle that they are readily confused lest one is intent on misleading, misdirection and obfuscation.

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You're casting them as victims of economic deprivation and therefore you are rationalizing, and in a way, excusing, their behavior.

As I wrote before, this does most poor people, who are mostly good souls, a disservice. Most poor people would probably not stick guns in the backs of innocents and hold them hostage for money, even if they could.

And if you are willing to understand the deeper motivations (which you ascribe to poverty) of the teen pirates, why not do the same for the wealthy warlords and financiers who arm African teens, who also quite likely started life in poverty?

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

and other white Christian thieving bastards

...All life is precious.

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You discredit yourself and your faith.

phobun writes

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You're casting them as victims of economic deprivation and therefore you are rationalizing, and in a way, excusing, their behavior.

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So you believe that being a victim of economic deprivation justifies and excuses criminal behavior. Or at least that’s what your accusation implies. I personally do not think that economic deprivation justifies or excuses criminal behavior. It does go a long way in EXPLAINING the statistics of criminal behavior.

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And if you are willing to understand the deeper motivations (which you ascribe to poverty) of the teen pirates, why not do the same for the wealthy warlords and financiers who arm African teens, who also quite likely started life in poverty?

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Why not? I know, because in your head there’s no way to place a wall between understanding and justifying.

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Originally Posted by trish

phobun writes

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You're casting them as victims of economic deprivation and therefore you are rationalizing, and in a way, excusing, their behavior.

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So you believe that being a victim of economic deprivation justifies and excuses criminal behavior. Or at least that’s what your accusation implies. I personally do not think that economic deprivation justifies or excuses criminal behavior. It does go a long way in EXPLAINING the statistics of criminal behavior.

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Explaining, rationalizing... parse your verb.
How do you explain the many many rich people who engage in criminal behavior, or the vast majority of poor people who are not criminals? Would Bernie Madoff's crimes be more understandable if they were borne of deprivation?

Phobun.

You say that casting those pirates as victims of economic deprivation (because they live in a war torn hell hole) cannot explain their behaviour?

You see there is a difference between explanation and an excuse.

All either I or Trish have tried to do is explain the why of this. Once that is understood, and the recent history of the country, how to stop it is clear.

The next time any faction is either popular and/or brutal enough to kick the asses of every other faction, and impose some kind of actual order there, let's just let them do it and mind our business. (Which likely means letting an Islamic state exist there.)

Why is that objectionable to you. What did any muslim ever do personally and directly to you?

Obviously greed is a motivation for lots of criminal behavior. Certainly economic deprivation would poorly explain the Madoffs of this world. Just as obviously, dirt poor orphans living on the street can easily recruited into lives of crime. There’s nothing difficult to explain here. If you wish to see such deprivation and recruitment as a justification of thievery be my guest. But don’t ascribe such leaps of deduction to me. If you do equate explanation with justification, may I suggest that’s why you are reluctant to accept economic deprivation as a explanatory factor in some criminal behaviors.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Phobun.

You say that casting those pirates as victims of economic deprivation (because they live in a war torn hell hole) cannot explain their behaviour?

You see there is a difference between explanation and an excuse.

All either I or Trish have tried to do is explain the why of this. Once that is understood, and the recent history of the country, how to stop it is clear.

The next time any faction is either popular and/or brutal enough to kick the asses of every other faction, and impose some kind of actual order there, let's just let them do it and mind our business. (Which likely means letting an Islamic state exist there.)

Why is that objectionable to you. What did any muslim ever do personally and directly to you?

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This is not about Islam, or the superstition of any other religion. I criticized you in your last 2 posts for writing "and other white Christian thieving bastards", and for appealing to religious demagoguery and superstitition. As I tried to ask you before, aren't you a wannabe physicist? Because you don't sound like a physicist, most of whom are not religious, nor do you seem very educated.

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Originally Posted by trish

Obviously greed is a motivation for lots of criminal behavior. Certainly economic deprivation would poorly explain the Madoffs of this world. Just as obviously, dirt poor orphans living on the street can easily recruited into lives of crime. There’s nothing difficult to explain here. If you wish to see such deprivation and recruitment as a justification of thievery be my guest. But don’t ascribe such leaps of deduction to me.

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I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic.

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Originally Posted by trish

If you do equate explanation with justification, may I suggest that’s why you are reluctant to accept economic deprivation as a explanatory factor in some criminal behaviors.

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So avoiding the words "justify" or "excuse", how do you explain how most economically deprived people are good and law-abiding, while many rich kids get involved in crime, as well as many rich adults. If your explanation of economic deprivation is good enough to explain why a minority of poor people engage in piracy, why is the same explanation useless for these other questions? Perhaps economic deprivation is not the best explanation for crime? Are you willing to consider that?

Yes it is about Islam. People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

As for being economically deprived, being the cause... what is the first step to a solution? How about having a government to enforce laws and contracts instead of tribal clan law, and the law of who has more guns? The economy can take care of itself from there.

The only alternative I have seen on HA ,on other websites, on TV and radio is to do violence to Somalia. If that would have worked it would have worked a long time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcyGStVc8QY

So your contention is that economic deprivation is never a factor in criminal behavior, in spite of the statistical fact that criminal behavior is positively correlated with deprivation. Your contention is that street orphans living from hand to mouth are not easy targets for recruitment into exploitive criminal organizations, in spite of the fact that just such scenarios are the staple of literature and film from Great Expectations to Slumdog Millionaire. I was under the impression that most people were capable of seeing the connection between economic deprivation and crime. You really want to say poverty is not statistically linked to crime and is not a likely a causal factor?

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Yes it is about Islam.

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You're paranoid too. Just respond to the points I made in my last post.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

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There is a serious pirate problem in the Malacca straits off the coast of Indonesia, but I'll leave it to you to say whether they are true Muslims.

Personally, I don't think the world's piracy problems are related to Islam.

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Originally Posted by trish

So your contention is that economic deprivation is never a factor in criminal behavior, in spite of the statistical fact that criminal behavior is positively correlated with deprivation. Your contention is that street orphans living from hand to mouth are not easy targets for recruitment into exploitive criminal organizations, in spite of the fact that just such scenarios are the staple of literature and film from Great Expectations to Slumdog Millionaire. I was under the impression that most people were capable of seeing the connection between economic deprivation and crime. You really want to say poverty is not statistically linked to crime and is likely a causal factor?

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Read my last post again more carefully, and kindly answer the question I asked.

Those somali pirates are not as dumb as obama and his supporters.

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Originally Posted by addicted

Those somali pirates are not as dumb as obama and his supporters.

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Oh, a real dipshit has now arrived!

So, your HIV dementia appears to be progressing, correct?

If there were sufficiently plentiful opportunities within a population for eeking out a living, there would be less pressure to survive by illegal means. In a population suffering economic deprivation there are not sufficient legal opportunities for pursuing the requirements of survival. Consequently there is higher pressure for people to pursue criminal paths.

Now for some strange reason you want me to explain why most economically deprived people are not criminals. I don't know if that is true or not. I believe it's true in the United States at the current time. But the population of the United States is not an economically deprived population. The population of Somalia is.

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Yes it is about Islam.

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You're paranoid too. Just respond to the points I made in my last post.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

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There is a serious pirate problem in the Malacca straits off the coast of Indonesia, but I'll leave it to you to say whether they are true Muslims.

Personally, I don't think the world's piracy problems are related to Islam.

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I did answer your points. Economic deprivation is no excuse, violence is no answer. For Somalia an Islamic government, which somali's would respect, could enforce laws against piracy. It happend before.

Piracy Off Somalia's Coast Increases

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NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Piracy off Somalia is on the rise because an Islamic group that had cracked down on the seafaring criminals was ousted from power, an official who tracks such cases off Africa's side of the Indian Ocean said Tuesday.

'''''During the six months that an Islamic group known as the Council of Islamic Courts ruled most of southern Somalia, where Somali pirates are based, piracy abated, said Andrew Mwangura, the program coordinator of the Seafarers Assistance Program.

At one point, the Islamic group said it was sending scores of fighters with pickups mounted with machine guns and anti-aircraft guns to central Somali regions to crack down on pirates based there. Islamic fighters even stormed a hijacked, UAE-registered ship and recaptured it after a gunbattle in which pirates — but no crew members — were reportedly wounded.

Mwangura said but piracy increased this year after Ethiopian forces backing Somali government (UN/EU/US puppet with no real authority what so ever) troops ousted the Islamic courts in December. ....

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It's as simple as that. Had we not ousted that particular Islamic Government, in our irrational fear that they might harbor terrorist, there would not have been a pirate attack on the ship, none of this would have happened. They were willing to actively fight the pirates and we ousted them. Directly because of the USA and our racially, and religiously motivated crusade against Islamic Government.

Edited because I wanted it to be quoted obvious for all to see in this case, our over-active imagination about every single islamic gov't being evil lead to a chain of events which created the situation we are in. Like the good book said, this present is a product of past history.

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Originally Posted by trish

If there were sufficiently plentiful opportunities within a population for eeking out a living, there would be less pressure to survive by illegal means. In a population suffering economic deprivation there are not sufficient legal opportunities for pursuing the requirements of survival. Consequently there is higher pressure for people to pursue criminal paths.

Now for some strange reason you want me to explain why most economically deprived people are not criminals. I don't know if that is true or not. I believe it's true in the United States at the current time. But the population of the United States is not an economically deprived population. The population of Somalia is.

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There are truly impovershed areas and families within North America, including the United States. I won't deny that.

And just because two phenomena are linked statistically does not indicate that one causes the other. A basic maxim goes something like this: correlation does not imply causation. Your theory of economic deprivation fails to explain why rich kids and adults get involved in crime, and it does not explain why most poor people in Somalia are decent people who don't stick guns in innocents' backs and hold them hostage for money.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Yes it is about Islam.

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You're paranoid too. Just respond to the points I made in my last post.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

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There is a serious pirate problem in the Malacca straits off the coast of Indonesia, but I'll leave it to you to say whether they are true Muslims.

Personally, I don't think the world's piracy problems are related to Islam.

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I did answer your points. Economic deprivation is no excuse, violence is no answer. For Somalia an Islamic government, which somali's would respect, could enforce laws against piracy. It happend before.

Piracy Off Somalia's Coast Increases

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NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Piracy off Somalia is on the rise because an Islamic group that had cracked down on the seafaring criminals was ousted from power, an official who tracks such cases off Africa's side of the Indian Ocean said Tuesday.

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It's as simple as that. Had we not ousted that particular Islamic Government, in our irrational fear that they might harbor terrorist, there would not have been a pirate attack on the ship, none of this would have happened. Directly because of the USA and our racially, and religiously motivated crusade against Islamic Government.

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Is your scientific logic so convincing too?
And how many leading academic centers in physics exist under sharia law? Seriously.

there is a difference between an impoverished area of a rich country....

And being in a country that has no actual legal system what so ever.

The riddle of Somalia is that it's economy is actually better than that of some other countries in Africa because there is no govnerment to get in the way of free enterprise. There are no taxes on phone/internet service for example. One can get really cheap internet access there.

The problem of somalia is that there is no government (with any real authority) to stop some of those enterprises from being piracy, slavery, dealing drugs, or just setting up a roadblock every 500 yards and demanding a bribe/toll.

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And just because two phenomena are linked statistically does not indicate that one causes the other. A basic maxim goes something like this: correlation does not imply causation. Your theory of economic deprivation fails to explain why rich kids and adults get involved in crime, and it does not explain why most poor people in Somalia are decent people who don't stick guns in innocents' backs and hold them hostage for money.

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My so called “theory of economic deprivation” isn’t intended to explain why the rich get involved with crime. There are do doubt many factors and causes of criminal behavior besides poverty. If X is offered as a causal factor of Y, it is not necessarily a valid criticism to maintain X doesn’t explain Z.

It is true that correlation alone doesn’t imply causation. But I also provided a mechanism of causation in the form of increased pressure to behave criminally in order to survive because of the poverty of legitimate means of survival. Can you provide an alternative explanation for the correlation?

I do not know for a fact that the “most poor” Somali are not involved in some form of illegal behaviors in order to survive. It probably depends on what one means my “most poor”. Not having any legitimate opportunities to provide the necessities of survival seems like a possible definition. But of course if we take that as the definition of “most poor,” it becomes tautological that the most poor are indeed surviving by criminal means.

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Yes it is about Islam.

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You're paranoid too. Just respond to the points I made in my last post.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

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There is a serious pirate problem in the Malacca straits off the coast of Indonesia, but I'll leave it to you to say whether they are true Muslims.

Personally, I don't think the world's piracy problems are related to Islam.

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I did answer your points. Economic deprivation is no excuse, violence is no answer. For Somalia an Islamic government, which somali's would respect, could enforce laws against piracy. It happend before.

Piracy Off Somalia's Coast Increases

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NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Piracy off Somalia is on the rise because an Islamic group that had cracked down on the seafaring criminals was ousted from power, an official who tracks such cases off Africa's side of the Indian Ocean said Tuesday.

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It's as simple as that. Had we not ousted that particular Islamic Government, in our irrational fear that they might harbor terrorist, there would not have been a pirate attack on the ship, none of this would have happened. Directly because of the USA and our racially, and religiously motivated crusade against Islamic Government.

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Is your scientific logic so convincing too?
And how many leading academic centers in physics exist under sharia law? Seriously.

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Look in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Feb 25, 1999,Pakistan creates national centre for physics Well before then... in the 1960's there was Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam. Then reaching way back there is the historical fact that in the Islamic world, before the renaissance philosophy, medicine, and even natural philosophy...what would become physics were being practised... all while under reasonably enforced sharia. (Not say.... the authoritarian thing the Saudi gov't. calls sharia, which is really an excuse to suppress it's populace.)


Oh and more on topic. Read about the current "Trasitional federal govt. of Somalia." Check who the UN recongnized "president's" pals are. He was commander of the government we ousted, which had the will and ability to stop the piracy. Now, why should they do either?

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Originally Posted by trish

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And just because two phenomena are linked statistically does not indicate that one causes the other. A basic maxim goes something like this: correlation does not imply causation. Your theory of economic deprivation fails to explain why rich kids and adults get involved in crime, and it does not explain why most poor people in Somalia are decent people who don't stick guns in innocents' backs and hold them hostage for money.

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My so called “theory of economic deprivation” isn’t intended to explain why the rich get involved with crime. There are do doubt many factors and causes of criminal behavior besides poverty. If X is offered as a causal factor of Y, it is not necessarily a valid criticism to maintain X doesn’t explain Z.

It is true that correlation alone doesn’t imply causation. But I also provided a mechanism of causation in the form of increased pressure to behave criminally in order to survive because of the poverty of legitimate means of survival. Can you provide an alternative explanation for the correlation?

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I'm not convinced your mechanism is valid. This is an area of pure conjecture and it does the broader population little good to try and rationalize why a some Somalis have chosen to commit piracy. I think some individuals in every society are willing to hurt or take advantage of others in order to benefit themselves, and this reality cuts across race, ethnicity and socioeconomic status. Perhaps poverty is more often associated with crime simply because poor people accused of crimes are less likely to get a good defense, and poor victims are less likely to see their victimizers prosecuted and taken off the streets.

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Originally Posted by trish

I do not know for a fact that the “most poor” Somali are not involved in some form of illegal behaviors in order to survive. It probably depends on what one means my “most poor”. Not having any legitimate opportunities to provide the necessities of survival seems like a possible definition. But of course if we take that as the definition of “most poor,” it becomes tautological that the most poor are indeed surviving by criminal means.

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I think it is pathetic that you impugn the vast majority of Somalis to support your unconvincing explanation.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Yes it is about Islam.

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You're paranoid too. Just respond to the points I made in my last post.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

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There is a serious pirate problem in the Malacca straits off the coast of Indonesia, but I'll leave it to you to say whether they are true Muslims.

Personally, I don't think the world's piracy problems are related to Islam.

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I did answer your points. Economic deprivation is no excuse, violence is no answer. For Somalia an Islamic government, which somali's would respect, could enforce laws against piracy. It happend before.

Piracy Off Somalia's Coast Increases

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NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Piracy off Somalia is on the rise because an Islamic group that had cracked down on the seafaring criminals was ousted from power, an official who tracks such cases off Africa's side of the Indian Ocean said Tuesday.

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It's as simple as that. Had we not ousted that particular Islamic Government, in our irrational fear that they might harbor terrorist, there would not have been a pirate attack on the ship, none of this would have happened. Directly because of the USA and our racially, and religiously motivated crusade against Islamic Government.

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Is your scientific logic so convincing too?
And how many leading academic centers in physics exist under sharia law? Seriously.

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Look in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Feb 25, 1999,Pakistan creates national centre for physics Well before then... in the 1960's there was Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam. Then reaching way back there is the historical fact that in the Islamic world, before the renaissance philosophy, medicine, and even natural philosophy...what would become physics were being practised... all while under reasonably enforced sharia. (Not say.... the authoritarian thing the Saudi gov't. calls sharia, which is really an excuse to suppress it's populace.)


Oh and more on topic. Read about the current "Trasitional federal govt. of Somalia." Check who the UN recongnized "president's" pals are. He was commander of the government we ousted, which had the will and ability to stop the piracy. Now, why should they do either?

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Fail.

Most of Pakistan is not governed by sharia law, and certainly not the islamic law that the Islamic Courts Union of Somalia tried to impose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a transsexual who has posed in the past for shemale porn? I doubt that you would feel very comfortable living under the sort of government you advocate for Somalia. I suspect you're a hypocrite, as too many religious people are.

I agree there are some people in every society who are disposed to take advantage of others. But I also think that in truly impoverished populations many people not so disposed are pressured into a life a crime by the mechanism which I elucidated above. But these are questions best left to criminologists and statisticians.

Let’s take a look at the progress we’ve made. This evening’s conversation began with me being accused of justifying the pirates by suggesting there may be an explanation for their behavior. It seems that you now grant there is a distinction between justification and explanation. We both agree their criminal behavior is not justified. So our focus has shifted to explanation. We see the main causes of criminal behavior in Somalia differently. That’s something about which we can agree to disagree. Suppose I’m wrong and the scarcity of legitimate means of survival has nothing to do with excessive crime in Somalia. That only means I failed to find a proper explanation of their criminal behavior. Lacking an explanation of behavior is not a justification of that behavior either. So either way, whether I’m right or whether your right, we have a basic agreement on the moral issue.

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Originally Posted by trish

I agree there are some people in every society who are disposed to take advantage of others. But I also think that in truly impoverished populations many people not so disposed are pressured into a life a crime by the mechanism which I elucidated above. But these are questions best left to criminologists and statisticians.

Let’s take a look at the progress we’ve made. This evening’s conversation began with me being accused of justifying the pirates by suggesting there may be an explanation for their behavior. It seems that you now grant there is a distinction between justification and explanation. We both agree their criminal behavior is not justified. So our focus has shifted to explanation. We see the main causes of criminal behavior in Somalia differently. That’s something about which we can agree to disagree. Suppose I’m wrong and the scarcity of legitimate means of survival has nothing to do with excessive crime in Somalia. That only means I failed to find a proper explanation of their criminal behavior. Lacking an explanation of behavior is not a justification of that behavior either. So either way, whether I’m right or whether your right, we have a basic agreement on the moral issue.

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No, I still think that trying to explain the pirates' crimes on the basis of them being economic deprived victims is illegitimate and a form of excuse making. I do think that you have backed away somewhat from some of the very stupid things you wrote earlier in this thread. And I would rather agree to disagree with someone making such claims, than grant any common ground.

The sad fact that you continually conflate explanation with justification has more than a little to do with your continual misinterpretations of my prior posts which are consistent with everything I’ve said tonight. I’m sorry we couldn’t find common ground. It seems to me the main obstacle is as follows. You believe that the occurrence of criminal behavior can only be explained by moral disposition and that any [...] explanation amounts to a justification. So if I really proved that scarcity of legitimate means of survival was the cause of increased crime in Somalia, you would have to believe that crime was justified. To me that sounds silly. I’m willing to hold people responsible for their actions regardless of their causes. In any case, the only progress we made was to speak civilly to one another. Thank you for the exchange. I think I'm calling it a night.

[All edits are within square brackets]

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by phobun

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

Yes it is about Islam.

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You're paranoid too. Just respond to the points I made in my last post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

People get hijacked and robbed on the high seas all around the world yet only one place does it get reported, and made to look like the only place it happens.

---

There is a serious pirate problem in the Malacca straits off the coast of Indonesia, but I'll leave it to you to say whether they are true Muslims.

Personally, I don't think the world's piracy problems are related to Islam.

---

I did answer your points. Economic deprivation is no excuse, violence is no answer. For Somalia an Islamic government, which somali's would respect, could enforce laws against piracy. It happend before.

Piracy Off Somalia's Coast Increases

Quote:

---

NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Piracy off Somalia is on the rise because an Islamic group that had cracked down on the seafaring criminals was ousted from power, an official who tracks such cases off Africa's side of the Indian Ocean said Tuesday.

---

It's as simple as that. Had we not ousted that particular Islamic Government, in our irrational fear that they might harbor terrorist, there would not have been a pirate attack on the ship, none of this would have happened. Directly because of the USA and our racially, and religiously motivated crusade against Islamic Government.

---

Is your scientific logic so convincing too?
And how many leading academic centers in physics exist under sharia law? Seriously.

---

Look in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Feb 25, 1999,Pakistan creates national centre for physics Well before then... in the 1960's there was Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam. Then reaching way back there is the historical fact that in the Islamic world, before the renaissance philosophy, medicine, and even natural philosophy...what would become physics were being practised... all while under reasonably enforced sharia. (Not say.... the authoritarian thing the Saudi gov't. calls sharia, which is really an excuse to suppress it's populace.)


Oh and more on topic. Read about the current "Trasitional federal govt. of Somalia." Check who the UN recongnized "president's" pals are. He was commander of the government we ousted, which had the will and ability to stop the piracy. Now, why should they do either?

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Fail.

Most of Pakistan is not governed by sharia law, and certainly not the islamic law that the Islamic Courts Union of Somalia tried to impose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a transsexual who has posed in the past for shemale porn? I doubt that you would feel very comfortable living under the sort of government you advocate for Somalia. I suspect you're a hypocrite, as too many religious people are.

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Really, Pakistan does not have Sharia? This is what google gives for pakistan sharia law. ]As for the Sharia the ICU practiced... each Islamic court in the union was pretty independant, so it varied from liberal to conservative. However on the whole it was better than chaos and the law of the gun.

As for being transgender, even living this lifestyle, and being muslim being contradictory I have , over time, presented evidence that says otherwise about, Malyasia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Morrocco, and even Arabia during the time of Muhammad, my beloved prophet S.A.S. had a number of transgender persons called Mukhannathun around him. They were entertainers who sang erotic songs and danced for a living. If Islam condemned us, his first act as ruler of Medina would have been to have all of them executed. Such a deed would have been recorded by someone. Instead we have stories about him at one time berating them for their music, and protecting one from a mob that expected the prophet to execute the male for wearing female clothes.

(That did not stop people even back then from not liking and being prejudiced against transwomen, even as the founder and leader of their religion was not, nor does it stop people now. Persecution of transwomen over there, and right here are because of peoples emotions. No religion I have studied that bothers to mention us, condems us.)

And the winner is phobun, hands down.

phobun: 3
trish: 0... and she goes back to shemale cartoons
Brenda: -1

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Originally Posted by 2009AD

And the winner is phobun, hands down.

phobun: 3
trish: 0... and she goes back to shemale cartoons
Brenda: -1

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Basically that's a inverted scale for how well you understand subtle points of logic.

OK, This comes from a black, muslim, paranoid, republican shemale prostitute.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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Originally Posted by 2009AD

And the winner is phobun, hands down.

phobun: 3
trish: 0... and she goes back to shemale cartoons
Brenda: -1

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Basically that's a inverted scale for how well you understand subtle points of logic.

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Holy crap, Brenda you are dumb.

trish, the reason I say you are arrogant and ignorant is because you have been trying to justify these criminal acts. You cannot just "explain" their behavior because of economic deprivation. Are all of these people in Somalia criminals? Like phobun says, what about all the rich people who commit crimes. They can't be justified, not greed either.

Brenda I already said to you that you can't compare these people to Robin Hood, but you try to anyway. I don't know what other" white Christian thieving bastards" that people glorify as good but are more like pirates, you obviously don't know any to name either. I already explained why these people are nothing at all like Robin hood.

Now please tell me, when has a white Christian ever shown you to be a thieving bastard? When has a white christian ever directly stole from you or anyone you know? Don't tell me about what you see on TV.

Brenda, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

trish if your really at all smart, realize that your wrong for trying to justify these acts. Just stop posting on here, it's over. People are going back and forth with no resolve but your wrong trish. Absolutely no one agrees with you, except for that moron Brenda who I'm sure you don't even agree with. Aside from maybe that Robin Hood was a pirate.