Production and promotion standards in the TS niche

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Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Excellent point. Except that you neglect to mention that there's too much politicking that goes on in our niche so sometimes the best thing for a studio to do is to make a short-term sacrifice in order to neutralize a long-term threat.

In my case, I tend to challenge the major players in this game in an effort to improve the situation for both myself and the younger models who dare not speak up. Is it really that far fetched to believe that there are some who wish that I would just shut up and go away and who want to keep me and others like me from getting any more modeling work by marketing us improperly? It seems like a pretty simple solution to the problem of those who would question the authority of the supposed hierarchy.

Girls tell me all the time that porn and activism don't mix and I argue to the contrary because what they are saying is only true if one cares about their modeling career more than they do about making a difference. I don't.

~BB~

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Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Sure, we all sign away our rights to our photos but that's because we presumably trust those who would control the content. We should be able to reasonably assume that our photos will be used in the most flattering way possible. I for one would not sign a model release if I thought for a second that that wouldn't be the case - and I didn't. Sure, it's all legal, but for many of us models, it's still a betrayal of our trust in the producer.

~BB~

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OK, so you like to go and upset the applecart and piss in producer's cornflakes and be an activist, and at the same time think that in return you should be able to trust those same producers to make you look the best you can possibly look even if it's against their own economic interest/business model, and seem to think that rather than them posting these pics to bring in business there is a "huge right wing conspiracy" to keep TS models in their places by posting ugly pics of any girls who "dare" to speak out against the posting of "ugly pics"? And that you also go do shoots for companies who use these tactics to "control the system in the long term" who you speak out against because they do such things, so that you can go and speak out about them doing it?

best bet to make good money and a name in modelling ... launch your own website , hire your own models etc ... then as and when you pick model shoots for other sites its just basically paid marketing ... bonus to draw people to your own site ...

with your own site you can produce to what ever level you wish .... there is simply not enough work about in the ts niche to base a modelling career just living off earning from paid shoots .... no one shoots 5 days a week month after month for multisites do they :)

of course some sites will market or put more time in shooting certain models that get the ratings in for them , that makes them money ... but take a look at yum as an example, each model has a bio page that will have a link to your ownwebsite ....you can also use some of the pics in youv set to use to promote as well....

fortune favours the bold as they say :) self promote ...

i didnt like some of hte pics used from sites by me to promote me ,,, but all i did was pic some pics i did like and market them instead along side ...

my 2 pence :) i could go on alot more ...

Unbelievable! I have to word this carefully so as not to be accused of attacking the OP. First let me state I have worked for 3 production companies in the past 12 years, I've been in front of the camera, behind it, done web design, edited film, been in shipping, customer service etc.

I have seen producers put up with some flaky ass models and some crazy shit, if their sets got alot of positive feedback, or their videos flew off the shelf. I've seen producers willing to try something new, for example, I set up my old boss with Olivia Love for his first TS shoot.

Some models just didnt sell. And alot of times it would surprise the hell out of us. The guys loved the girl we didnt think they would, and the glamour babe they could do without, you never knew.

We are in a RECESSION. A model could be the biggest pain in the ass in the world, and if she sold, they would bring her back. Again and again. Sometimes a model just doesnt sell, and to blame the producers, who are in business to make money, isnt fair.

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Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

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Originally Posted by TempestTS

Actually I would guess that there is somebody out there somewhere that for whater reason is completely turned on by someone like her and would pay good money to see her in a movie or pics.

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Cletus the slack-jawed yokel maybe?

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Originally Posted by TempestTS

Go over to the Clibs4Sale site and just take a look at all the strange categories you can buy content for...

Toothbrushing

Sweat Fetish

Ugly

Spinal Brace Fetish

Sneezing

Hiccups

coughing fetish

Nose Pinching

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And you think OUR niche is small? I mean you're talking about amateur stuff on Clips4Sale, not Playboy, Hustler, or even Yum. Ok fine, there IS an audience for everything, but three guys living in a trailer sandwiched between a prison and a landfill drinking moonshine don't qualify as a demographic. The only reason Clips4Sale has those categories is because they don't have to produce content so it doesn't cost them anything to offer them. They're not a production site dishing out money for shoots and expecting to make a profit. Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

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Well if we go up against Straight porn or even Gay/lesbian porn yes our niche is much smaller but its also much bigger than it was 10 years ago which says a couple things about its growth but you also have to factor in carrying capacity of the market. If your niche is rare you can make a lot of money but as some people jump in once they see the money the fanbase will only grow to a certain level then it becomes hard to make money and several companies might close because they run into the red, or they might up the production quality or spend money on promotion to see if they can push the market wider. It might work, It might not... its not a easy yes or no answer there are way too many things to take into account.

Clips4Sale has a great concept. They host content in their system for anyone who wants to provide it and they take a cut of the profit. Largely they leave it up to the content providers to market for them. Im guessing that they dont have a huge marketing budget but might spend a little to continue to attract more producers so they have more content and more sub companies who will push their site for them. BRILLIANT!

They have all those different Fetish niche categories not only because its easy, its because "Somebody" is producing and "somebody" is buying and when you have millions of clips and photos in all those sub niche offerings it adds up to a lot in the end even if the Guy stuck in Siberia Russia with the toothbrush and sneezing fetish only buys one clip a month. As long as he keeps buying money is money right?

Not to mention that Clips4Sale also has content for several large studios. They already own the content, prices on individual clips are so high that only a couple of them sold are similar to a one month trial on a lot of sites. And of course you cant leave out the advertising value of just being on a site with lots of traffic who might see their studio while browsing for amateur toe-nail clipping porn and stop in to buy something or at least remember they saw it and visit the producers main site later.

Yes there is a market for everything... if your a very small niche your fanbase will be very dedicated since its hard to find anyone else producing it... as long as no other sellers enter the market youll probably do well.

One guy is a landfill with a jug of moonshine is a demographic as long as he is buying what your selling, if he's buying a lot you might want to advertise in other landfills who knows what untapped market youll find :lol:

How do you measure success?

Is it dollars or enjoyment of what you do
Or is it both.

Can a choice of content, style of work, or advertising always going to pay off based on the data you make your decisions on?
Of Course Not... R ember the Sony Beta-max VCR system? Better in just about every way but flopped.

Could producers change the way they do things and improve the market?
YES... but I have no idea what would work and what would not. if I had the answers Id already be rich. And some shit just never makes sense no matter what "Yoko Ono anyone?"

Do I feel that I was marked correctly by every company I worked for.
No. But its not personal and its just what they viewed as best for their marketing budget at the time... I have no beef there.
Am I sure about that?
Hell no but Id like to at least believe I have something more to offer so Im going to give it a shot. I might prove them right and fall on my ass or I might prove them wrong and do quite well but either way I will have learned from the attempt and I believe in trying to follow my dreams so its ok either way at least Ill be doing what i want to be doing.

Do I feel that you Bella have not hit your true potential as an adult model.
YES. I still want to bring you up here to shoot for TS-Rockdolls.

Do I know it will be worth my investment. Is it "For Sure"
No but I think I see more in you than I have yet to see on any shoot youve done so Im willing to risk money I barely have just to find out.

HEY THATS A DUMB IDEA! Im risking money that I can hardly spare on someone that I dont really know based on no hard data but only because I have a hunch?
Yes Its probably not the best thing to spend my money on but its what I want to do so Im going to do it simply because I believe you have a lot more potential, but I dont believe for a second that my little indi site can give you a push even in 10 years of the best promo and production that I can offer than you would get in 10 days as just being in a Grooby YUM December gallery. Lets face it Grooby is a traffic monster for model visibility even if they dont formally do promotion on you.

There is certainly room for improvement and change in any business model. There always will be but change always comes with some risk because its too complex to predict no matter how much or what data you collect.

You look at your cards and place your bet on not only what you can see but what you feel but youll never know for sure. So dont become too personally invested in the game or let it tear you apart if you lose. If your only in it for the win you shouldnt even play, you need to be in it because you enjoy the game not because you are looking for a specific outcome. Its hard not to take things personal when its you up there in that photograph or in that video but its not "YOU" that they are seeing, its just a bunch of pixels on a screen that might or might not have some additional data that indicates how that group of pixels would be best used by company XYZ.

No guarantees on anything in life but I hope you stick around in this adult industry to show your true potential and do your best to enjoy the ride getting there.

Even though Im in disagreement with you Bella on this issue its just a debate of opinions. I think your a fantastic gal and really do hope that we do get the chance to work together some day soon ;)

TempestTS you are one smart cookie. If you ever get to NYC i'd love to chat with you. In the meanwhile if there's anything i can do to help you with Adult marketing advice, I would be glad to.

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Originally Posted by slinky

TempestTS you are one smart cookie.

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Not only smart but from all dealings I've had with her, eloquent and very cool.
If anyone hasn't checked out her site, please do. We're about to start some promotions on it. It's great to see models like Tempest and Mandy producing content on their own terms and very different to the more mainstream TS porn.

Having a solo amateur site and working with only one other person here are a few of my observations.

Production value: We try to mix this up a bit - we have the equipment and know how to do high end glamorous shoots but don't have the budget to pull it off on a weekly basis (I update my site every week). Plus members enjoy some variety so I'll do casual shoots or outdoor shoots (which are more tricky because you have less control over the lighting and environment) or shoots with a specific theme. Of course we try to do the best we can on every shoot but still like to keep some of the amateur charm. But there are times as both a model and as a photographer that I do miss the mark or fall short. We all have good days and bad days on both sides of the lens.

Modeling is tricky. Even working with the same photographer for the last 6 years I still find myself a little surprised (sometimes in a good way and sometimes not so much) looking at pictures after a shoot. Like I was giving you all THIS and you shot THAT???

I edit all of my pictures and video. For photos I generally go through the whole raw set and toss out all of the obvious duds. Then go through again and find which ones are repeats or blurry. Then I generally go through the photoshopping process. I resize, flip pics around where needed, make any lighting adjustments, then touch up where needed. I try not to be too heavy handed but that gets tougher and tougher as I get older. Then, depending on the size of the set, I'll pare it down even further.

When I'm deciding which pics to keep and which to toss out I can't have my partner in the same room with me. Sometimes she'll look over my shoulder and say "You're getting rid of that shot!?! That's one of my favorites!" And then the debate begins on what I dislike about it VS what she likes. "You're ass looks so hot there." "Yeah, but look at the face I'm making." And on and on. So I find it best to make sure the door is closed when I going through this process.

Trixie creates most of the promotional galleries for my site so she chooses which pics are included there. I swear if we were to pick 15 pictures out of a set there might be one or two that were actually the same. Obviously we try not to give away the 15 best shots out of a set, I mean you want to leave people wanting more and don't want them to be disappointed when they do join. Ultimately I get the final say in what goes out for promo but I've come to realize that with any shot that I don't like, she obviously has seen something she does like. So I'll usually just let it slide.

I'm still amazed at which pics from a set that a member will pick out as a favorite. I haven't found any rhyme or reason in it. Totally subjective and varies from individual. I try to keep that in mind when I'm thinning out a set and if I question whether to keep or get rid of a shot I'll usually keep it.

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Originally Posted by slinky

OK, so you like to go and upset the applecart and piss in producer's cornflakes and be an activist, and at the same time think that in return you should be able to trust those same producers to make you look the best you can possibly look even if it's against their own economic interest/business model, and seem to think that rather than them posting these pics to bring in business there is a "huge right wing conspiracy" to keep TS models in their places by posting ugly pics of any girls who "dare" to speak out against the posting of "ugly pics"? And that you also go do shoots for companies who use these tactics to "control the system in the long term" who you speak out against because they do such things, so that you can go and speak out about them doing it?

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I'm not pissing in anyone's anything. If I wanted to do that I would start tossing out crude personal insults and such. I'm just looking for a dialog. As far as the activism thing goes, I sum it up to this: it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it. It might as well be me. Can you see Kimber or Kelly Shore or Yasmine Lee doing it? I didn't think so. lol

And I'm not alleging that there's a conspiracy. It's not that complicated. Again, what's so far fetched about someone who has control over someone's else career exercising that control for the 'greater good.' If I'm willing to make sacrifices so that other models can have better benefits, what makes people think others wouldn't do so to protect their larger interests? Frankly, those who accuse others of being conspiracy theorists tend to be guilty parties or those quick to defend the status quo. No tin foil hats or reptilian overlords necessary!

I may be wrong, but I'm not paranoid. It's just a theory.

~BB~

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Originally Posted by TempestTS

One guy is a landfill with a jug of moonshine is a demographic as long as he is buying what your selling, if he's buying a lot you might want to advertise in other landfills who knows what untapped market youll find :lol:

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Right, but the models that cater to that 'demographic' know who their audience is and accept the degrading role they've been offered. In our niche we all try to look our best and expect to be promoted accordingly. It's not about law, technical prowess, content rights, etc. It's about expectations. We expect to be promoted as sexy, beautiful, and desirable, not by bunions, crooked fingers, drug use (crack whores), body fat, etc. That's all I'm saying.

~BB~

Thanks for the shout out Seanchai.

I'd just like to chime in here . There are many different ways to focus on production. Lighting gear and makeup are only a few. I spend the bulk of my production costs on hiring phenomenally talented videographers, photographers, rope bondage experts, and video editors, even though I could shoot with SMC in LA for free. I don't look nearly as glamorous in my shoots that I produce as I do in my LA shoots. So why do I do it? I do it like this because I'm an action girl. I love the action. I don't give a shit about looking like Barbie, I wanna make hot and filthy pornography. I've found a crew of people that I click really well with, and I'm willing to shift my focus from hyper control of my appearance to hyper control of my content.

GG's in porn don't face the nearly constant self loathing and doubt that TS do in regards to our appearances. Look at nearly all straight/girl-girl hardcore and those bitches get fucked up. Makeup all over the face, hair a mess, and guys go crazy for it. But we TS constantly have to worry about our own self loathing and other people possibly thinking we are not looking passable.

I'm at a point in my career where I want to make porn that goes beyond this. If my hair gets messed up, and I have makeup running that doesn't make me less passable, it just means I'm having a good time like any other women would. I think this attitude has actually been integral to my success in this industry.