An outsider watching the US health care debate

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Originally Posted by raybbaby

healthcare is simply one of those things that should not be for profit.

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Yes! Free healthcare for everyone.

And ice cream and pony rides and whiskey, too! Whee!

Nothing free, folks. Somebody's going to pay. And as dumb and asleep at the wheel as the voters are, and as corrupt and self-serving as the politicians are, you can fucking well bet it won't be the corporations or the wealthy who'll be footing the bill.

I'd prefer to pay my way and let the assholes who eat at MacDonald's or enjoy bbbj with the working girls, or enjoy their dumbass extreme snowboard hang gliding canyon sports pay for their cost of their own stupidity.

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Originally Posted by jcinva

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Originally Posted by raybbaby

healthcare is simply one of those things that should not be for profit.

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Yes! Free healthcare for everyone.

And ice cream and pony rides and whiskey, too! Whee!

Nothing free, folks. Somebody's going to pay. And as dumb and asleep at the wheel as the voters are, and as corrupt and self-serving as the politicians are, you can fucking well bet it won't be the corporations or the wealthy who'll be footing the bill.

I'd prefer to pay my way and let the assholes who eat at MacDonald's or enjoy bbbj with the working girls, or enjoy their dumbass extreme snowboard hang gliding canyon sports pay for their cost of their own stupidity.

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How amazingly forward thinking of you.

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

How amazingly forward thinking of you.

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I prefer pragmatic.

There are consequences for various activities. I already bear enough cost for other people's dumbass, short-sighted fuck ups, paying too much for a home they couldn't afford in the first-place, for example. Tax base rises and I pay more taxes on mine, while some of the homes nearby get foreclosed and the crime rate goes up. And I'm just bracing myself for the new tax schedules to come out to reflect the cost of the "bail out" so these ignorant assholes can stay in their overpriced homes.

That money won't be coming out of the Shearson bond traders' pockets, you'd better believe it.

The only reason we can so casually and often refer to natural rights and natural privileges and natural entitlements is because there's enough surplus yet to bear the actual costs.

It's not so long ago that we saw a socialist nation/union get its back broken economically because of all the "natural" entitlements.

So - as a courtesy, and I have little reason to expect you'll honor the request, but please stay the fuck out of our internal political debate. We don't go nosing about stirring up your Quebecois separatists.

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Originally Posted by jcinva

It's not so long ago that we saw a socialist nation/union get its back broken economically because of all the "natural" entitlements.

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You'll have to enlighten me because we're doing pretty well up here. How's that bank system of yours pal?

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So - as a courtesy, and I have little reason to expect you'll honor the request, but please stay the fuck out of our internal political debate. We don't go nosing about stirring up your Quebecois separatists.

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You're right, I am free to talk about whatever I want. And will continue to. As for the Quebec Separatism....how very 1995 of you. Shall we discuss the FLQ incident next?

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

You'll have to enlighten me because we're doing pretty well up here. How's that bank system of yours pal?

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Wow - you guys really do say, "pal." I thought that was just Parker/Stone humor.

Ad hominems aside, not my banking system. Not my idea to subsidize and legislate improvident loans, and all of the cascading business stupidities that followed.

Not my system. I just have to live in it, and I shudder to think how much more contorted it will get when the doctor's office is brought to me by the same people who brought me the DMV.

Nor is it your system, and you don't even have to live here or deal with the consequences. What you enjoy doing is serving up your moral high-handed kibitzing so you can demonstrate how enlightened and "forward thinking" you are. Maybe one of the eros-toronto "ladies" will toss you a free throw for being such a nice guy.

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Originally Posted by jcinva

Ad hominems aside, not my banking system. Not my idea to subsidize and legislate improvident loans, and all of the cascading business stupidities that followed.

Not my system. I just have to live in it, and I shudder to think how much more contorted it will get when the doctor's office is brought to me by the same people who brought me the DMV.

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You just proved my point. The bank issue was not because of the government being involved. When a society allows capitalism to trump it's citizens there's a problem. People cried bloody murder when the government stepped in and owned part of the banks and the car companies. "how dare they take away our freedom". Please...that freedom led to greed which then led to a lot of homeless people.

That same "freedom / greed" is what's happening in the health care system. Drug companies, doctors and hospitals don't see people, they see dollar signs. When Obama spoke of Insurance companies using scare tactics...then yah I would think I'd want my elected officials to step in.

You can't have a society run by big business. Or at least you can't have it run without some regulation. There needs to be a balance and check. Will you get our health care system? Probably not...but at least Obama's heading in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

That same "freedom / greed" is what's happening in the health care system. Drug companies, doctors and hospitals don't see people, they see dollar signs.

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Yes, I agree. But the proposed plan is no different in that regard.

The reason why so many drug companies, hospital chains, major practices, and insurance companies are on board with the program is because they KNOW it will stifle competition and give them near-monopoly control over the American health care sector.

Do you really think this would, in any way, make health care a not for profit system? Hell no. They're focusing on gov sponsored health care, and not gov-controlled health care*- for a reason, and that reason IS big business.

There will be control in other ways... i.e. morality enforcement. did you notice that Obama said in the speech right after the heckler that "no federal tax dollars will pay for abortions"? America IS a backward country in some ways, and the politicians are demanding they control peoples' access to reproductive rights using the proposed health care system. Basically the dem's just sold out reproductive rights (Like I've been saying for months they would) to try to get the moderate republicans & conservative democrats on board with the proposal.

This is a major problem since most abortions, contraceptives, and sterilization procedures in the US are paid for by private health care. Those policies will disappear as companies go "you know what, we don't need to offer health benefits- the gov will do it for us!" Our blue collar fields are notorious for keeping people employed a tick below 40 hours so they can deny them health insurance, because so many of the employers in this country LOATHE the idea of paying for it. It will be yet another "perk" slashed away from the working and middle class families in the name of profits, like good pensions, reasonable pay, and everything else thats taken a hit since the recession started.

All this will do is make access to these socially controversial treatments even more asymmetrical depending on SEC-status. Only the rich will be able to afford health care that is NOT state-sponsored, which would be the ONLY plans to cover these things (since it would be illegal for tax dollars to fund any plan that covers these treatments). Thus its "our politicians want to play doctor and tell you what you can and can not get for your body"



* By this I mean in the NHS style where a public health care sector exists under government's control & operation which (supposedly anyway) isn't supposed to be for-profit, in contrast to the private health care sector which is.

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Originally Posted by raybbaby

healthcare is simply one of those things that should not be for profit. There's something fundamentally flawed about trying to make money from sick people rather than simply trying to make them well. And that's about it.

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What about food? Isn't that more fundamental to life than health care?

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by raybbaby

healthcare is simply one of those things that should not be for profit. There's something fundamentally flawed about trying to make money from sick people rather than simply trying to make them well. And that's about it.

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What about food? Isn't that more fundamental to life than health care?

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We've had state sponsored farming at least as far back as the great depression.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by raybbaby

healthcare is simply one of those things that should not be for profit. There's something fundamentally flawed about trying to make money from sick people rather than simply trying to make them well. And that's about it.

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What about food? Isn't that more fundamental to life than health care?

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We've had state sponsored farming at least as far back as the great depression.

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But we aren't paying for our food via taxes. You don't walk into the supermarket and give them a card that covers everything. We cover the poor with Food Stamps for food and Medicaid for health care.