Covid-19 Politics

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Originally Posted by sukumvit boy

Yes,thank you for that clarification.

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The clarification in itself is of minor importance as the grim reality is that even before the 'Freedom Day' that was re-branded as 'Caution Day' -July19th- new infections were, and are rising in the UK, mostly in the younger people and others not yet vaccinated, while the prospect of 'vaccine resistance' must also now be factored in to suggest that over time, existing vaccinations may, as with flu, require annual upgrades -that Covid-19 is here to stay.

Yesterday I spoke with a Consultant whose head dropped when I mentioned Covid, as in his hospital -he is not directly involved in Covid- there were 6 Covid patients a month ago, there are 14 today. It is only relevant to me because I am waitig for an operation which might be delayed if hospital resources are diverted from other areas, though I can live with what I have and do not mind if Covid cases take priorty.
There is a sense among those on the front line that the Govt has lost control of the agenda, that the science continues to urge caution while the politics, besieged by the commercial world where a diverse range of policies makes no sense when workers in one sector are expected to self-isolate while others are not, has in effect abandoned rational policy for an ideological commitment to indivdual liberty. This is a collective crisis, and yes, even in my small town there was a demonstration -albeit made up of 10 people and two banners- against vaccinations, but one wonders what people use for brains these days. For this reason I expect the infection rate to worsen over the next month, and just hope that more peoplle are vaccinated, and that fewer people die than was the case last year.

It no longer makes sense to say 'I am glad I don't live in Texas' when the idiots in charge there are not much worse than the idiots we have here. Covid-19 has exposed a failure of leadership across the world, and an indifference to science tha is as scary as it is incredible, and it there are few signs it will get better soon or any time

Vaccine Resistance-
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/uk-ne...istant-variant

The eluusive claims of 'Herd Immunity'-
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

Covid infections are also on the rise again in the US, corresponding with a slowing in the rate of vaccination. Are we about to throw away the chance of beating this virus simply because some people have decided to resist vaccination for political reasons? And not for any reason of rational self-interest, but because ignoring expert advice and dismissing Covid risks and has become a marker of tribal affinity.

As this article notes, Republicans used to sell themselves as the party of personal responsibility. Now they seem to be about promoting irresponsible behaviour and shielding people from any consequences.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...not-with-covid

The question is what should be done if persuasion does not deliver a sufficiently high percentage of the population to reach herd immunity. Vaccination passports seem a logical move to encourage vaccination as well as allowing normal activities to resume safely as far as possible. However, a portion of the population not only want the right to refuse vaccination but are also vehemently opposed to facing any disadvantage relative to the vaccinated as a consequence. This is going to be a big political battleground - there have been violent protests in France against recent measures there.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...passports.html

One thing I find astounding is that there are health workers opposing vaccination mandates. Perhaps those people need to find a more suitable career.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Covid infections are also on the rise again in the US, corresponding with a slowing in the rate of vaccination. Are we about to throw away the chance of beating this virus simply because some people have decided to resist vaccination for political reasons? And not for any reason of rational self-interest, but because ignoring expert advice and dismissing Covid risks and has become a marker of tribal affinity.

As this article notes, Republicans used to sell themselves as the party of personal responsibility. Now they seem to be about promoting irresponsible behaviour and shielding people from any consequences.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...not-with-covid

The question is what should be done if persuasion does not deliver a sufficiently high percentage of the population to reach herd immunity. Vaccination passports seem a logical move to encourage vaccination as well as allowing normal activities to resume safely as far as possible. However, a portion of the population not only want the right to refuse vaccination but are also vehemently opposed to facing any disadvantage relative to the vaccinated as a consequence. This is going to be a big political battleground - there have been violent protests in France against recent measures there.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...passports.html

One thing I find astounding is that there are health workers opposing vaccination mandates. Perhaps those people need to find a more suitable career.

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In aggregate terms, Covid cases are not as bad here as the local experience suggests, though I believe we are still vulnerable to variants of the disease and have yet to assess the full impact of the relaxation that began on July 19th. We may be looking at a perod over the next 5 years when we 'settle down' to an annual occurrence of non-lethal/hospitalised infectons with accompanying vaccines, as with 'flu, but other countries are behind the curve, so I doubt international travel is a good idea for some of us.

Re: Australia -a few weeks ago I read that while Australia has done well with the management of Covid-19, yet barely 14% of the population has been vaccinated -do you know why?

Filghy, we went from about 10 cases per day in my county to 140 per day in a matter of two weeks. This has been going on all over the place. The CDC told people if they were vaccinated they did not have to wear masks indoors. Of course people who are unvaccinated at this point are probably also unlikely to wear masks.

The Delta variant is more transmissible. The CDC claims it spreads as readily as chickenpox although virologists I follow claim that's an overstatement and the r0 is between 5 and 6, still much more transmissible than the original strain. There are also more breakthrough cases with Delta, though the vaccines are supposed to maintain their protection against severe disease and death longer than they do against infection. There have been studies showing that although vaccinated people who get breakthrough infections tend to have less serious symptoms they still have similar amounts of virus in their nasal passages so they're presumably able to spread the virus as readily.

Among those who haven't been vaccinated there are several camps. Some can be reached and some can't. There are those who say they are waiting for more information, are waiting for full fda approval, or need some impetus (maybe a family member getting sick) to get vaccinated. Then there are the indoctrinated masses who watch Fox news whose political tribalism tells them death is better than prudence. In my view the fda trials and the data about vaccination provide enough information for anyone, but at least people who claim they want to know more have not ruled out the possibility of getting vaccinated.

Right-wing media here pumps out bullshit about the vaccines all day and night. They're heavily invested in having a fractured society...they no longer seem to have a plan except to amplify fake grievances, misunderstand data, and to confuse gullible people.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Re: Australia -a few weeks ago I read that while Australia has done well with the management of Covid-19, yet barely 14% of the population has been vaccinated -do you know why?

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Most Australians would also like to know. The figure is now up to 23%, but it's still one of the lowest in the developed world. There is a lot of dissatisfaction about this with much of the country recently going back into lockdown due to delta strain outbreaks.

There are a number of factors. One has been supply constraints, with AstraZeneca being to only vaccine that is manufactured locally. However, the government seems to have erred in putting to much reliance on AstraZeneca initially and then moving too slowly to obtain mRNA vaccine supplies.

Second, the low incidence of blood clots for AstraZeneca has contributed to vaccine hesitancy, which may not have been helped by mixed messaging from official sources. I know there is an argument that the balance of risks changes with the incidence of Covid infections, but I think this goes over many peoples' heads and they are left with a sense of confusion and an exaggerated impression of the blood clot risks.

Third, the low incidence of transmission until a few weeks ago led to complacency on the part of both governments and the public. Many people thought the risk was low, so why not wait for the better and apparently less risky Pfizer vaccine. The government only recently started strongly pushing a message that people should get vaccinated ASAP.

Fourth, the federal government insisted on taking charge of the vaccination rollout because it had been left on the sidelines by the states and wanted to get credit for a success story. The problem is that they don't have much expertise in major logistical exercises like this and they made a hash of it.

Finally, we have our own Fox News equivalent, which has been busy spreading misinformation. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-...tion/100341386
Fortunately, their audience reach is much less than Fox, but they do appeal to a certain segment of the public.

[Duplicate post]

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Originally Posted by broncofan

Right-wing media here pumps out bullshit about the vaccines all day and night. They're heavily invested in having a fractured society...they no longer seem to have a plan except to amplify fake grievances, misunderstand data, and to confuse gullible people.

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The question I often ponder is why the Murdochs condone this. I know they want want right-wing governments for low taxes and regulation, but promoting political/social/economic disorder would not appear to be good for business on the face of it. A more conventional Republican Party would seem to better align with their interests.

Perhaps they think that going down this route is the only way that Republicans can win nowadays, and undermining the recovery will work against the Democrats. They might also think that the news/entertainment business won't be much affected if the pandemic is prolonged.
Or perhaps there is no coherent plan, just a monster they have lost control of but must keep feeding because they can't afford to lose the target audience.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Covid infections are also on the rise again in the US, corresponding with a slowing in the rate of vaccination. Are we about to throw away the chance of beating this virus simply because some people have decided to resist vaccination for political reasons? And not for any reason of rational self-interest, but because ignoring expert advice and dismissing Covid risks and has become a marker of tribal affinity.

As this article notes, Republicans used to sell themselves as the party of personal responsibility. Now they seem to be about promoting irresponsible behaviour and shielding people from any consequences.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...not-with-covid

The question is what should be done if persuasion does not deliver a sufficiently high percentage of the population to reach herd immunity. Vaccination passports seem a logical move to encourage vaccination as well as allowing normal activities to resume safely as far as possible. However, a portion of the population not only want the right to refuse vaccination but are also vehemently opposed to facing any disadvantage relative to the vaccinated as a consequence. This is going to be a big political battleground - there have been violent protests in France against recent measures there.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...passports.html

One thing I find astounding is that there are health workers opposing vaccination mandates. Perhaps those people need to find a more suitable career.

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Completely agree that health workers who are opposing vaccination mandates should find a more suitable career.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

The question I often ponder is why the Murdochs condone this. I know they want want right-wing governments for low taxes and regulation, but promoting political/social/economic disorder would not appear to be good for business on the face of it. A more conventional Republican Party would seem to better align with their interests.

Perhaps they think that going down this route is the only way that Republicans can win nowadays, and undermining the recovery will work against the Democrats. They might also think that the news/entertainment business won't be much affected if the pandemic is prolonged.
Or perhaps there is no coherent plan, just a monster they have lost control of but must keep feeding because they can't afford to lose the target audience.

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Murdoch's view was summarized by Ronald Reagan in his 1981 Inauguration address: "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

Thus Murdoch has campaigned against Govt/State regulations in the US, the UK and Australia since the 1960s -hence his victory in persuading Reagan in 1987 to abandon the Fair Broadcasting agreement that has created a sectarian media, to replace balanced reporting and debate with propaganda. And on the Murdoch principle applied to newsapers and other media- don't report the news when you can create it. Hence a lot of what claims to be news is in fact a futile response to some outrageous statement by Laura Ingraham or Tucker Carlson, neither of whom venture into the streets to report on say, homelessness, or poverty, or education.

Murdoch doesn't believe in Big Government, but his appeal to the kind of minimalist State found in the first decades of the US, and above all his belief that Markets are superior to Governments cannot deal with a national crisis such as the current Pandemic, which requires the mobiization of Government and Non-Governmet agencies in a public health campaign. The best he can offer is some sort of temporary military response to be disbanded when the crisis is over. But in the US where there is no national health service provision and up to 31% of the public reject vaccination, it appears Markets -ie a world in which individuals make the decisions free of Govt/State- one man's freedom may be another's avoidable death or illness.

As for Mudoch himsef, an Australian born US citizen who lives in the UK, if his UK newspaper that published photos of topless 16 year-olds had been published in some US States, he would have served time in prison, and be on the sex offenders register. But hey, Page 3 was just a 'bit of fun'. much as Love Island is about virile young men and horny young women who never talk about sex...and allegedly never do it either, a sort of Puritan Ibiza. Funny old world, innit?

I still have trouble finding any coherence in what they're doing. While they may reject government solutions, collective action, and paternalism they haven't proposed any kind of private market solution. Why not downplay government funding for warp speed and instead praise Pfizer and Moderna as private companies who have exploited a profitable market? Pfizer has, after all, made 33 billion so far this year. They don't have to share those profits with anyone.

Anyhow, they could have conceded a modest role for government and tried to get past this crisis as smoothly as possible so they could focus on their agenda items. By digging in during a pandemic, probably the worst scenario for their utopian selfish corporatist society, they amplify the weakness of their ideology and look like giant buffoons.

I agree they distrust government and don't like asking people to make sacrifices for society (except the military) but I see them as following an instinct for contrarianism and allowing it to lead them in a fight against modernity and decency. Also, the sensationalism that fox news depends on makes it hard not to play some card. They can't simply ride out this crisis and acknowledge that in rare circumstances people do need to cooperate. So there is some of that play to sensationalism.