Covid-19 Politics

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

Considering how badly the CDC botched this whole thing about vaccinated people no longer having to wear masks indoors and outdoors. Along with certain governors all of sudden saying they're not going to follow the science and data and say they're going to decide for themselves when mask mandates can be lifted, I now wish the CDC hadn't said anything in the first place.

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I was not aware of this situation so I googled it and found the article linked below. I think there are a number of issues here, which I can't verify. One would be the historic one of the pandemic beginning, and maturing when Trump was President and either indifferent to its impact, or more concerned to play it down for political reasons, controlling what the CDC could say in public. The other is the crisis in policy making and implementation that affected the US but also places like the UK, Brazil, and India where the profile of this viral pandemi exposed a failure at the level of service and technical provision, by which I mean the fatal decisions made with regard to Care Homes (in the UK in particular), the initially inadequate supply of PPE, and most of all the management of lockdowns, which in some parts of the US never happened, and which in some parts of the UK were probably extended long beyond the need to, but which may have to return on a local basis, if that makes any sense -can the police stop people leaving or entering Bolton?

Basically, the vaccine has become a 'get out of gaol free' card, with the novel situation that people can claim to be vaccinated when they haven't beeen, but where it is unreasonable to ask shop or restaurant workers to become 'vaccine police' and where there is already an online trade in fake vaccination cards such as the one I -and probably you too- have.

One of the curious factors here, is that the States that have handled the pandemic well have tended to be those with an existing or historic authoritatian government -Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore spring to mind. Israel may be a democratic and open society but most of its citizens are also military reservists, and can be mobilized -'co-ordinated'- quickly and effectively, and also because, the Haredi aside, citizen loyalty to the State exists on a level probably ridiculed and opposed in parts of the US, where defying 'the Feds' is a badge of honour for some, or some childish tantrum with Democrat Governors and Mayors, themselves of varying quality.

As remarked on above, this has been a poor example in too many places of politics failing to protect the citizen. The oddities too are places like Australia which has handled the pandemic well in terms of the numbers and rate of infection, but where, as with Japan, the rate of vaccination of the population has been poor -do people think they just don't need it?

The UK is going to have a public enquiry into the pandemic, but it won't begin its work until 2022, and as these things take at least 1-2 years, I doubt a report will be published until 2025 by which time few people will be interestd if Covid is something that happened 'years ago'- I guess Congress will also spend a year or more investigating it, and in both cases the question that must be asked -'What can we learn from this?' may produce answers that are either ignored or become clauses in legislation and regulations.

But yes, when a major institution issues contradictory advice, it doesn't encourage confidence. Maybe as an advocate of behaviour at the policy makking level, the CDC needs reform?


https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/14/cdc-...ne-police.html

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Originally Posted by Stavros

The oddities too are places like Australia which has handled the pandemic well in terms of the numbers and rate of infection, but where, as with Japan, the rate of vaccination of the population has been poor -do people think they just don't need it?

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It's hard to work out why the vaccination rate if so low in Australia, especially with the blame-shifting that has been occurring around the division of responsibilities between federal and state government. Part of the reason is that low case numbers have meant that there has not been the same urgency as elsewhere. There have also been supply constraints due to countries restricting vaccine exports.

A big part of the problem is that the federal government placed too much reliance of the AstraZeneca vaccine, which is presently the only one manufactured locally. As a result of the blood clot problems they had to advise against people under 50 getting it. As supplies of other vaccines are still limited that means anyone over 50 (which includes me) can only get AstraZeneca, and I guess some are reluctant.

It looks like the more centralised NHS system in the UK may have done a better job of rolling out vaccines efficiently. I was recently surprised to learn that I am now eligible to be vaccinated, which I only found out because I checked the website on a whim. I had been assuming that I would receive some official notification.

'Vaccine hesitancy' is to my mind a slippery term, because it implies that those refusing to be vaccinated now might do so later, whereas I wonder if they intend to be vaccinated at any time. The current problem with the 'Indian variant' in places like Bolton and Bedford, is that some are accusing those now hospitalized, including in intensive care, of having refused the vaccination, while others claim that many cases are of people under 40 who have not been eligible for vaccination. On top of that, the Govt is being criticized for not restricting entry into the UK from India, and given that it can take up to 3 hours for travellers to be processed through passport control at Heathrow, one wonders how they distance people in those queues.

As for Australia, I think that one consequence of the Covid experience may be to signficantly improve its domestic manufacture of vaccines, to relieve the country of any dependence on external sources when, in a pandemic, the demand for vaccines may limit supplies. It is discussed in this article-

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ply-disruption

My uncle who I described as older and weak in my last post just passed away. He had deteriorated over years and though I loved him the circumstances meant it didn't hit me as hard as other deaths in my family.

But the reason I bring this up is because his daughter, who is my cousin, is coming to town for the funeral. My father just told me that she is "vaccine hesitant". Although a certain percent of the population has not gotten the vaccine I didn't personally know anyone who hadn't. I believe someone who I worked with had an anaphylactic reaction to another kind of vaccine and this gave her a bona fide reason for not getting vaccinated. My cousin, on the other hand had no such reason and is going to be interacting with our entire family, including dozens of people in their seventies.

I do think people have a right to make their own health decisions but I can't help but judge that kind of ignorance and selfishness. Ignorance because her chance of having a bad reaction to a Pfizer vaccine is about one in a million but her chance of dying from covid, at 42 years old, is about 3 in a thousand. Her behavior also has an impact that gets magnified throughout the population and endangers even those who have been vaccinated. People like my cousin are a bigger obstacle on the path to normalization (in the U.S.) than any administrative mistakes thus far.

If anyone is interested:

http:// www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

I'm actually surprised that most of the countries with the lowest fully vaccination rates per population are European countries.

Also, there is a pro domme that I follow on Twitter who resides in the UK I believe. She said she got her first vaccination shot the other day and should be getting the next one in 4 months. I don't know if she meant to say 4 weeks, but if it is 4 months, that seems odd to me

A 12 week interval is now common-

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special...clusives/92117

A couple of articles out right now asserting that three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were sick in November 2019. The original source of the claim is a U.S. intelligence report. First, if there is such a report I don't know whether it's accurate. If it is that is definitely suggestive (though not definitive proof) of a lab leak given the timeline.

Republicans seem to think that such a leak would support their theories that China developed the virus as a weapon and intentionally released the virus. It doesn't so I'll just ignore them. If their claim is that the idea of a leak wasn't investigated carefully enough because it could be politically contentious that's a possibility. There are a number of virologists who have been warning about the safety of such labs saying that while the risk of contamination might be low at each lab, cumulatively the global risk is quite high and constitutes a hazard we need to collectively address.

At no point during the pandemic would the information about the virus' origin have helped to eradicate the virus or deal with it medically. Knowing of its origin right now would help us make safety procedures at such labs and institutes a pressing global matter and transparency about what kind of research is taking place at each lab essential.

We know that at least 3.4 million people are dead because of this virus. Understanding its origins is crucial to helping prevent future incidents, particularly if it mutated in a petri dish instead of crossing over from bat to unknown intermediate species to human.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-intel-report-identified-3-wuhan-lab-researchers-who-n1268327

https://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-wuhan-lab-fuels-debate-on-covid-19-origin-11621796228

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Originally Posted by broncofan

A couple of articles out right now asserting that three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were sick in November 2019. The original source of the claim is a U.S. intelligence report. First, if there is such a report I don't know whether it's accurate. If it is that is definitely suggestive (though not definitive proof) of a lab leak given the timeline.

Republicans seem to think that such a leak would support their theories that China developed the virus as a weapon and intentionally released the virus. It doesn't so I'll just ignore them. If their claim is that the idea of a leak wasn't investigated carefully enough because it could be politically contentious that's a possibility. There are a number of virologists who have been warning about the safety of such labs saying that while the risk of contamination might be low at each lab, cumulatively the global risk is quite high and constitutes a hazard we need to collectively address.

At no point during the pandemic would the information about the virus' origin have helped to eradicate the virus or deal with it medically. Knowing of its origin right now would help us make safety procedures at such labs and institutes a pressing global matter and transparency about what kind of research is taking place at each lab essential.

We know that at least 3.4 million people are dead because of this virus. Understanding its origins is crucial to helping prevent future incidents, particularly if it mutated in a petri dish instead of crossing over from bat to unknown intermediate species to human.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-intel-report-identified-3-wuhan-lab-researchers-who-n1268327

https://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-wuhan-lab-fuels-debate-on-covid-19-origin-11621796228

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I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss not knowing the origins of the Corona virus during the pandemic wouldn't have been beneficial in some way.

I think it coming from a lab is a credible theory. But I don't think it was something that China developed as a weapon or if they did something they released intentionally. Because if they did, I think that is a legit reason for a declaration of war or some sort of military action. Not only by the United States, but some other countries as well. I do think that once it was leaked, China wasn't as forthcoming about it as they should have been.

I think if it was leaked from a lab, it was something that happened purely by accident. Either due to negligence or someone making a very costly mistake.

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss not knowing the origins of the Corona virus during the pandemic wouldn't have been beneficial in some way.

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I know it sounds dismissive and I don't have any expertise here but what could the knowledge do unless the scientists developed a treatment during the research. The only options are suppression strategies and medical treatment. When they're working on it in a petri dish they should be decked out in hazmat type because they don't have an antidote. If they get infected and they infect others, it's out there...

There is an epidemiologist I follow on twitter named Marc Lipsitch who has been saying for a while that he's concerned about lab safety generally at these types of labs. His basic math was that even if it's a rare event at each one, it's not that unlikely cumulatively and the possibility of horrible events like this is too great.

We're on the same page about it being an accident and the fact that it's a genuine possibility. Also, agree China has not been forthcoming at all. I have been hesitant because on the right they don't know how to criticize China without being inflammatory but they've been as opaque as authoritarian societies often are. And it's selfish and harmful but an investigation will have to take place.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

I have been hesitant because on the right they don't know how to criticize China without being inflammatory but they've been as opaque as authoritarian societies often are. And it's selfish and harmful but an investigation will have to take place.

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Apologies because I realize I already stated Lipsitch's view in the previous post.

I also want to say there was never any benefit from the "China flu" comments or the "Kung Flu" type comments. If we wanted people to discuss a potential accident or a lack of transparency, these comments have been an impediment. They not only endangered Asian-Americans (first priority concern), they also put a cloud over any attempt to discuss the issue because people didn't want to be associated with the kind of racial animus being trafficked on the right.

I know I sure as hell didn't and don't. And the comments have played out in the form of violence all over the place against Asian-Americans.