Trannies for Trump

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

You have certainly given a thorough and truthful description of the American system of democracy. But none of that matters.

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If obtaining an ID is that simple, that basic, that common, why in reality is it such a hurdle for those Transgendered Americans who, even if they wanted to vote Republican, could not vote at all? My point was that when someone turns up at the office to register their vote it is their ID that is rejected, if they have any, and if they don't have any, it may be because they can't get one, because they can't afford the $10 it needs to get to the office, or when they arrive to Register as Michaela, the officer only sees Michael.

Real problems in the real world, maybe you should address them, instead of saying 'none of that matters'.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

I'm simply highlighting the same point that virtually every analysis of the 2016 election has highlighted. You should try reading some of them.

I'm not sure whether you don't understand basic logic or you are being disingenuous because you need to pretend to yourself that you never lose an argument. To explain the 2016 election you need to explain what changed between 2012 and 2016. Republican advantages that were similar to the previous elections cannot explain it. The biggest single thing that changed was the Republican margin among less educated white voters.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that Trump actually lost the popular vote decisively. He only won as a result of small margins in a few working class states that voted previously for Obama, again due to the shift among less educated whites.

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So what you're saying is that a lot of stupid people went from voting Democratic to voting Republican in the most recent election. No wonder the Democratic Party is in such shambles, they've lost their base.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

If obtaining an ID is that simple, that basic, that common, why in reality is it such a hurdle for those Transgendered Americans who, even if they wanted to vote Republican, could not vote at all? My point was that when someone turns up at the office to register their vote it is their ID that is rejected, if they have any, and if they don't have any, it may be because they can't get one, because they can't afford the $10 it needs to get to the office, or when they arrive to Register as Michaela, the officer only sees Michael.

Real problems in the real world, maybe you should address them, instead of saying 'none of that matters'.

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I'm sorry, Stavros, I just don't see this as being a problem. A legal citizen of this country has no problem obtaining an ID. Even if you've lost every piece of identifying paperwork you have, you can always obtain your birth certificate from the county clerk's office where you were born. You can use that to obtain a Social Security card, and you can use those two things to obtain a driver's license, or a state-issued ID if you can't drive. Pretty simple.

So simple, in fact, that one might say that anyone who doesn't have a legal, government-issued ID in this country is either an illegal alien, or extremely irresponsible. Either way, whether that person can vote or not is not important to me.

As for transgenders and their ID's, of course they can obtain one just like anyone else. It might have their BIRTH gender and their LEGAL NAME on it, but it will still be totally legit and enable them to vote.

If someone's "real problem of the real world" is that they don't have $10, they have a lot bigger problems than not being able to vote.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

I'm sorry, Stavros, I just don't see this as being a problem. A legal citizen of this country has no problem obtaining an ID. Even if you've lost every piece of identifying paperwork you have, you can always obtain your birth certificate from the county clerk's office where you were born. You can use that to obtain a Social Security card, and you can use those two things to obtain a driver's license, or a state-issued ID if you can't drive. Pretty simple.

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I sometimes wonder if you live in the US. Life may be easy for you, for others, dealing with State officials can be intimidating and traumatic. And yes, on any given day, $10 may be the difference between an ID card and a meal -what choice is that?

We manage to live without ID cards in the UK, why not scrap them in the US, and use a different mode of identification in elections, it is the 21st century, it can be done.

Do you really think it is 'pretty simple' when there is so much evidence that for many Americans the simple fact that they are poor, or blind, or forgetful, or Black means they have no ID, and can't vote? Here is the evidence with many examples:

“I hear from people nearly weekly who can’t get an ID either because of poverty, transportation issues or because of the government’s incompetence,” said Chad W. Dunn, a lawyer with Brazil & Dunn in Houston, who has specialized in voting rights work for 15 years.
“Sometimes government officials don’t know what the law requires,” Dunn said. “People take a day off work to go down to get the so-called free birth certificates. People who are poor, with no car and no Internet access, get up, take the bus, transfer a couple of times, stand in line for an hour and then are told they don’t have the right documents or it will cost them money they don’t have.”
“A lot of them just give up,” Dunn said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.121fc48db9f6

https://rewire.news/ablc/2014/10/16/...-id-just-vote/

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I sometimes wonder if you live in the US. Life may be easy for you, for others, dealing with State officials can be intimidating and traumatic. And yes, on any given day, $10 may be the difference between an ID card and a meal -what choice is that?

We manage to live without ID cards in the UK, why not scrap them in the US, and use a different mode of identification in elections, it is the 21st century, it can be done.

Do you really think it is 'pretty simple' when there is so much evidence that for many Americans the simple fact that they are poor, or blind, or forgetful, or Black means they have no ID, and can't vote? Here is the evidence with many examples:

“I hear from people nearly weekly who can’t get an ID either because of poverty, transportation issues or because of the government’s incompetence,” said Chad W. Dunn, a lawyer with Brazil & Dunn in Houston, who has specialized in voting rights work for 15 years.
“Sometimes government officials don’t know what the law requires,” Dunn said. “People take a day off work to go down to get the so-called free birth certificates. People who are poor, with no car and no Internet access, get up, take the bus, transfer a couple of times, stand in line for an hour and then are told they don’t have the right documents or it will cost them money they don’t have.”
“A lot of them just give up,” Dunn said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.121fc48db9f6

https://rewire.news/ablc/2014/10/16/...-id-just-vote/

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First of all I think I've made it known that I have not led an exemplary life. My youth was quite filled with various forms of irresponsible adventure.

Once, when I was working tugboats in the Gulf, we came back from a 3-week hitch and put our boat into dry-dock. I wasn't signed on for the next hitch, I was going to take a week off. But that night I wandered off into the French Quarter and really tied one on, had a blast I'm sure. At the end of the night I was pretty broke and quite wasted, so I decided to just go back to the boat and sleep in my cabin. It was right across the river and there was a bridge, so I stumbled back to my little quarters on the boat.

I slept long and hard, and when I woke up, much to my surprise, the boat was in motion. I had a vague memory of people beating on my cabin door in the night and me telling them to fuck off. I went flying out of that cabin, through the galley, nodded to a couple guys I knew on the way through, and came screaming out onto the deck, knowing that if we were already past the mouth of the river, I was fucked - I'd be out on the water for 3 weeks with no pay, working for food.

Well we weren't past the mouth of the river, but we were just about to the point where the "land" beside the river becomes nothing but marsh and reeds for miles and miles before the whole mess opens out into the Gulf. But there was still some solid land in sight, so without giving the matter much thought, I dived off the boat and swam to shore. Got a couple nice catcalls and waves from the crew, and was actually feeling pretty happy with myself until I realized I'd left my waterproof wallet in the cabin in my haste - the waterproof wallet that contained every document on this planet proving I exist, driver's license, Coast Guard license, birth certificate, fishing license, social security card - it was all in that wallet. I traveled light back then.

So I'm sitting there on the shore of the Mississippi River a good mile or so from civilization, no money, no way to identify myself, nothing but a pair of soaking wet shorts, a t-shirt, and the pair of flip-flops I now saw floating around within grabbing distance.

I did have one thing going for me - I had a paycheck coming the following day.

So here's what I did, Stavros. I bummed around the Quarter that night, saw a couple people I knew, let them buy a few beers, talked one of them into letting me crash on his couch. The next day I went and got that paycheck, and I took it to a pawn shop. Pawn shops in this country can be very flexible in the way they do business.

I explain my situation to the pawn shop guy, show him the check, and tell him I'd like to cash the check at his highest convenience rate, but that I need a little help getting my life back first. It was a substantial check, for the whole 3 weeks I'd just spent on the ocean, and it meant a couple hundred bucks to the guy, so he let me use his phone and his business address. I called the county clerk office where I was born and arranged to have my birth certificate FedEx'd to the pawn shop. Pawn shop guy held the check and advanced me a hundred bucks, so I went and got a happy meal, a bottle of whiskey, and a cheap motel room. Next day I got a phone call from pawn shop guy that my birth certificate was there. He said that was enough ID for him to complete the transaction, so we finished our business and I walked out of there with my birth certificate and a pocket full of cash.

Next stop, SSA office. I produce my birth certificate, explain that I have lost my wallet, and leave with a temporary social security card which will serve as a 2nd form of ID for the DMV.

Go to DMV, give them my out-of-state license information, produce birth certificate and temporary social security card, they say I gotta take a written test so I do and I pass it, leave DMV with birth certificate, social security card, and now driver's license.

Take all my new ID to the Coast Guard Licensing facility, tell them I lost my wallet, produce ID, obtain new Coast Guard license.

All this cost me around $40 (if you don't count the extravagant fee I paid to cash my check) and was done in two days. Starting from the shore of the Mississippi River.

And really, Stavros, if you expect me to feel so sorry for people who give up on getting an ID because they're poor or don't understand the process, I just don't. It ain't rocket science, but yes, it can be time-consuming. Every American has logged his or her hours in nightmarish DMV lines. It sucks and we all hate it, but it's how the shit gets done.

And for every complaint of poverty in this country, there's a remedy if the person is willing to ask for help. There are plenty of programs around, government and otherwise, whose first step in trying to help someone get back on their feet is to get them some form of ID so they can get on the government tit. Which, fine, I'm not opposed to programs like that, I don't mind paying for people to survive, if that's the extent of their goals. But that's a whole different topic.

Anyway, no Stavros, it's not hard, it's not expensive, it's just something you have to do as an American. You don't just "give up" on obtaining an ID, you get one. It's the first step to practically everything else you might want to do here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

First of all I think I've made it known that I have not led an exemplary life. My youth was quite filled with various forms of irresponsible adventure.

Once, when I was working tugboats in the Gulf, we came back from a 3-week hitch and put our boat into dry-dock. I wasn't signed on for the next hitch, I was going to take a week off. But that night I wandered off into the French Quarter and really tied one on, had a blast I'm sure. At the end of the night I was pretty broke and quite wasted, so I decided to just go back to the boat and sleep in my cabin. It was right across the river and there was a bridge, so I stumbled back to my little quarters on the boat.

I slept long and hard, and when I woke up, much to my surprise, the boat was in motion. I had a vague memory of people beating on my cabin door in the night and me telling them to fuck off. I went flying out of that cabin, through the galley, nodded to a couple guys I knew on the way through, and came screaming out onto the deck, knowing that if we were already past the mouth of the river, I was fucked - I'd be out on the water for 3 weeks with no pay, working for food.

Well we weren't past the mouth of the river, but we were just about to the point where the "land" beside the river becomes nothing but marsh and reeds for miles and miles before the whole mess opens out into the Gulf. But there was still some solid land in sight, so without giving the matter much thought, I dived off the boat and swam to shore. Got a couple nice catcalls and waves from the crew, and was actually feeling pretty happy with myself until I realized I'd left my waterproof wallet in the cabin in my haste - the waterproof wallet that contained every document on this planet proving I exist, driver's license, Coast Guard license, birth certificate, fishing license, social security card - it was all in that wallet. I traveled light back then.

So I'm sitting there on the shore of the Mississippi River a good mile or so from civilization, no money, no way to identify myself, nothing but a pair of soaking wet shorts, a t-shirt, and the pair of flip-flops I now saw floating around within grabbing distance.

I did have one thing going for me - I had a paycheck coming the following day.

So here's what I did, Stavros. I bummed around the Quarter that night, saw a couple people I knew, let them buy a few beers, talked one of them into letting me crash on his couch. The next day I went and got that paycheck, and I took it to a pawn shop. Pawn shops in this country can be very flexible in the way they do business.

I explain my situation to the pawn shop guy, show him the check, and tell him I'd like to cash the check at his highest convenience rate, but that I need a little help getting my life back first. It was a substantial check, for the whole 3 weeks I'd just spent on the ocean, and it meant a couple hundred bucks to the guy, so he let me use his phone and his business address. I called the county clerk office where I was born and arranged to have my birth certificate FedEx'd to the pawn shop. Pawn shop guy held the check and advanced me a hundred bucks, so I went and got a happy meal, a bottle of whiskey, and a cheap motel room. Next day I got a phone call from pawn shop guy that my birth certificate was there. He said that was enough ID for him to complete the transaction, so we finished our business and I walked out of there with my birth certificate and a pocket full of cash.

Next stop, SSA office. I produce my birth certificate, explain that I have lost my wallet, and leave with a temporary social security card which will serve as a 2nd form of ID for the DMV.

Go to DMV, give them my out-of-state license information, produce birth certificate and temporary social security card, they say I gotta take a written test so I do and I pass it, leave DMV with birth certificate, social security card, and now driver's license.

Take all my new ID to the Coast Guard Licensing facility, tell them I lost my wallet, produce ID, obtain new Coast Guard license.

All this cost me around $40 (if you don't count the extravagant fee I paid to cash my check) and was done in two days. Starting from the shore of the Mississippi River.

And really, Stavros, if you expect me to feel so sorry for people who give up on getting an ID because they're poor or don't understand the process, I just don't. It ain't rocket science, but yes, it can be time-consuming. Every American has logged his or her hours in nightmarish DMV lines. It sucks and we all hate it, but it's how the shit gets done.

And for every complaint of poverty in this country, there's a remedy if the person is willing to ask for help. There are plenty of programs around, government and otherwise, whose first step in trying to help someone get back on their feet is to get them some form of ID so they can get on the government tit. Which, fine, I'm not opposed to programs like that, I don't mind paying for people to survive, if that's the extent of their goals. But that's a whole different topic.

Anyway, no Stavros, it's not hard, it's not expensive, it's just something you have to do as an American. You don't just "give up" on obtaining an ID, you get one. It's the first step to practically everything else you might want to do here.

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You don't understand the philosophy behind voter suppression and why the GOP has invested so heavily into it.

The point is to put up so many hurdles and barriers to voters, including reducing the number of DMVs in a given 100 mile radius to ONE and nearly inaccessible by public transportation. Or the number of polling centers for a community is reduced from 5-6 to 1- or 2.
BTW, how did you get to the DMV and Coast Guard Licensing facility in your story without a car? How did you pick up your check with no ID???

The GOP wins when fewer people vote, which is why you will NEVER see Republican leadership advocating for a national voter holiday where everyone has the day off during a general presidential election.

It's one thing to believe everyone should have a valid ID. But that shouldn't be an excuse to make it 10x harder for some communities to obtain said identification.

The biggest bullshit lie I'm sick of hearing from the GOP is that they need to discourage illegals from voting.

Illegals NEVER vote, just like they NEVER show up for jury duty or anything remotely 'legal'.

We had the lowest voter turnout for a presidential election in 2016, and Trump still had the nerve to say 3 million illegals voting is why HRC crushed him in the popular vote.

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

BTW, how did you get to the DMV and Coast Guard Licensing facility in your story without a car? How did you pick up your check with no ID???

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The bus system in New Orleans is - or was in the 90's anyway - quite adequate. But I don't really recall whether I even had to take a bus, the Coast Guard building is right there at the crescent of the river like practically everything else in the boating industry. I think I did take a bus to the DMV. Also, I didn't need an ID to pick up my check, they knew me.

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

You don't understand the philosophy behind voter suppression and why the GOP has invested so heavily into it.

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Of course I don't, I'm a conservative. Only the "woke" liberal mind can understand election strategy. This particular strategy is a bloody good one too, because even though it does bar certain types of people from voting (mostly criminals and layabouts), it also makes perfect sense that voters ought to identify themselves at the polls. Simple proof that you are who you say you are and you are qualified to vote is not too much to ask, in fact it's hardly anything at all.

I seriously - SERIOUSLY - doubt that any DMV locations have been hand-picked for the purpose of curtailing voter registration. DMV's have always been a nightmare, so for immigrants and other newcomers to the system, welcome to the USA, now take a fucking number.

Jeezus Christ, sometimes I think liberals really believe some of this horseshit.

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger

I explain my situation to the pawn shop guy, show him the check, and tell him I'd like to cash the check at his highest convenience rate, but that I need a little help getting my life back first. It was a substantial check, for the whole 3 weeks I'd just spent on the ocean, and it meant a couple hundred bucks to the guy, so he let me use his phone and his business address. I called the county clerk office where I was born and arranged to have my birth certificate FedEx'd to the pawn shop. Pawn shop guy held the check and advanced me a hundred bucks, so I went and got a happy meal, a bottle of whiskey, and a cheap motel room. Next day I got a phone call from pawn shop guy that my birth certificate was there. He said that was enough ID for him to complete the transaction, so we finished our business and I walked out of there with my birth certificate and a pocket full of cash.

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So you're telling us that the pawn shop guy advanced you (a complete stranger I assume) $100 even though you had no security and no ID, so he had no way to know it wasn't a stolen check. Even if your story is true, do you think this would have been possible if you weren't white and didn't have a big check?

You're also telling us that the county clerk's office was willing to send your birth certificate to a pawn shop office just on the basis of a phone call. Maybe you were born in a small place where everyone knows each other, but I doubt that would have worked in a big city. In any case, I'm pretty sure the requirements to get a birth certificate would have been tightened since then due to identity fraud.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

So you're telling us that...

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I'm telling you that it's easy to get an ID in this country unless you've got something to hide, Flighty.

I'm telling you that it's not the big problem you're trying to make it out to be. But hey, that's liberal politics - "If morons who aren't even resourceful enough to obtain a legal ID can't vote, there must be a systemic bias against morons."

Well guess what, Flighty. There is.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

So you're telling us that the pawn shop guy advanced you (a complete stranger I assume) $100 even though you had no security and no ID, so he had no way to know it wasn't a stolen check. Even if your story is true, do you think this would have been possible if you weren't white and didn't have a big check?

You're also telling us that the county clerk's office was willing to send your birth certificate to a pawn shop office just on the basis of a phone call. Maybe you were born in a small place where everyone knows each other, but I doubt that would have worked in a big city. In any case, I'm pretty sure the requirements to get a birth certificate would have been tightened since then due to identity fraud.

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https://www.wikihow.com/Obtain-a-Cop...-in-California
I was born in California so I looked up the process because I remember it being much more involved the last time I got a certified copy of the birth certificate. According to this link, you fill out an application, find a notary public, send a check to the California health department, and wait fifteen days for processing. It's not the toughest process in the world, but it's the first step if you've lost your documents. I just got my social security card because I lost that a while ago and I used my birth certificate, but they did not give me a temporary. I waited about ten days for it to be mailed.

So assuming your driver's license requires these documents, you might be waiting about twenty five days before you can prove to your dmv both proof of identity and citizenship. Might there be ways to expedite this? Possibly, but you can imagine what it's like for someone who works six days a week to deal with government bureaucrats and to be sent home multiple times because the utility bill they're using for address in the state misspelled their name or something.

It is possible the process was easier back in the day, but it isn't quick I don't think.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

https://www.wikihow.com/Obtain-a-Cop...-in-California
I was born in California so I looked up the process because I remember it being much more involved the last time I got a certified copy of the birth certificate. According to this link, you fill out an application, find a notary public, send a check to the California health department, and wait fifteen days for processing. It's not the toughest process in the world, but it's the first step if you've lost your documents. I just got my social security card because I lost that a while ago and I used my birth certificate, but they did not give me a temporary. I waited about ten days for it to be mailed.

So assuming your driver's license requires these documents, you might be waiting about twenty five days before you can prove to your dmv both proof of identity and citizenship. Might there be ways to expedite this? Possibly, but you can imagine what it's like for someone who works six days a week to deal with government bureaucrats and to be sent home multiple times because the utility bill they're using for address in the state misspelled their name or something.

It is possible the process was easier back in the day, but it isn't quick I don't think.

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I'd also like to point out that if the process were back then(in Mississippi) what it is in California today, Nick couldn't have gotten the birth certificate as the first form of id given that he couldn't notarize the application without any id. So we don't have a story about an especially resourceful person but the most generous interpretation is that it's someone who got their id when it was much easier to do so.