Muslims

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The idea that the MIiddle East should be reserved for Muslims is a pernicious one that allows extremists to attack Arab Christians, be it in Egypt or Iraq; the Christians of Lebanon may not be targeted in the same way, but over the next ten to twenty years the Shi'a will be the dominant community, if they are not already.
This debate it is not helped by people cliaming the Lebanese are not (for the most part) Arabs...

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Agreed. It would seem that it is rarely ever good policy to emphasize historical, cultural or ethnic differences when the political climate is as unstable as it seems to be in Northern Africa and the Middle East.

Unfortunately, Trish the region has form on this topic: the presence of Jews and Christians in the vicinity of Mecca was profoundly important for Muhammad when he was developing his ideas about another monotheist religion, but unlike most other Middle Eastern countries you will not find a synagogue or a church in that country. The Eastern Mediterranean coast in the first half of the 20thc was a vibrant region populated by Arabs, Jews, Greeks, French, English, Russians and son on, attracted by the easy life in a mildy decadent climate but above all by the ability to make money -the same region today is either mostly Jewish or mostly Arab, give or take the minority nationalities who do dirty jobs in Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. This creeping monoculturalism is not enough for bin Laden and the Jihadis but has by now drained the region of its diversity and, if anything, intensified political conflict. It has always struck me how multi-culturalism, so derided by conservatives in the UK, Germany, France and elsewhere, has been fundamental to the success of the USA -not necessarily in its politics, but in its society and societies -there is for me a sense of adventure in New York knowing how many different people live there, with their own beliefs, their own cuisine -much as I like the Middle East, there is only so much rice and chicken that I can eat...

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Originally Posted by Stavros

it is not a "myth" ask any lbnese also and they will not say they are arab, and thjey do not even speak a real arabic... they use french words and bleach their hair, wear contacts and say they are european lol.. There may be some percent of lbnese who are mixed with arab yes.. but for the most part they are decendant of phoenicians and greek but this is very off point..

Unfortunately Najwa, in a thread on Muslims it is of the point; there has been some effort exerted in recent years by extremists -Salafi, Takfiri call them what you will, where the right of abode in the Middle East has been linked to the perception that you can only belong if you are Muslim and Arab. It is in part a response to the view some Israelis have that their state should be an exclusively 'Jewish' state even though they can't legally define a Jew to everyone's satisfaction and will probably be unwilling to give up their domestic servants and farm labourers from Asia.

The Lebanese speak French for the most obvious reasons, a long-established trade link to France -whose 'claim' on Lebanon and Syria was made before 1920 by the silk merchants of Lyon; and the experience of the French 'mandate'. Sophisticated Lebanese liked to think they were more oriented to Europe and the Mediterranean world than to the Arab world, but the research done by Kamal Salibi and others has tended to confirm that Lebanon, like most other states in the region was populated from its core base in the Yemen -the same is also possibly true of the Jews; there were long-established Jewish communities in the Yemen and what we now call Saudi Arabia when Muhammad received his first revelations in the 7th century.

French-speaking Lebanese should be seen in the same context as French-speaking Russians at the court of Nicolas II -its a case of snobbery, as simple as that. There are some Lebanese who are not Arabs, the Armenians, for example, but they remain a minority as they always have been.

The idea that the MIiddle East should be reserved for Muslims is a pernicious one that allows extremists to attack Arab Christians, be it in Egypt or Iraq; the Christians of Lebanon may not be targeted in the same way, but over the next ten to twenty years the Shi'a will be the dominant community, if they are not already.
This debate it is not helped by people cliaming the Lebanese are not (for the most part) Arabs and to suggest that this is confirmed by bleached hair or contact lenses, although I assume this was not a serious comment anyway.

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hah! shia is always been a minority and always will be for obvious reasons that they are not true muslims... the exact is same with arab christians and arab jews they are minority in overall population and in most countries..
and i am sorry to tell you but minority will always be opressed by majority just look at transsexuals, we are minority.
i am saying a serious comment because a fact is lebanese people as whole are completely different than real gulf arabs, lebanese people are very mixed because of their history as trade ports.. the diference between lebanese and arabs is like comparing french people to greeks.. but this conversation is beginning to feel like debate on stormfront and i am sooooooo not in mood for that right now.buuut i dont understand how you can tell me about arabs and muslims and think you understand when you are neither?! it is like you telling me how it is to be a transsexual.. you may think you know from reading but you never live it yourself so you can not know.

Buuuut i willl leave you with this picture of street sign in lbnan

http://oi52.tinypic.com/j133bo.jpg

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hah! shia is always been a minority and always will be for obvious reasons that they are not true muslims...

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Yeah yeah yeah... Everybody else is always some kind of blasphemous idolator.

If memory serves, wasn't the great schism in Islam within a generation of the death of the Prophet? The Christian schism took centuries. But anyway: I'm not Muslim, but from what I've observed, Shia seems to be the liberal wing of Islam. The real fundamentalist nutjobs, like the idiots who crash planes into buildings, or the Taliban, etc, are Sunni. Isn't the Shia denomination growing fastest?

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Originally Posted by hippifried

Yeah yeah yeah... Everybody else is always some kind of blasphemous idolator.

If memory serves, wasn't the great schism in Islam within a generation of the death of the Prophet? The Christian schism took centuries. But anyway: I'm not Muslim, but from what I've observed, Shia seems to be the liberal wing of Islam. The real fundamentalist nutjobs, like the idiots who crash planes into buildings, or the Taliban, etc, are Sunni. Isn't the Shia denomination growing fastest?

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shia is not 'liberal' unless you consider persians and iran to be liberal because majority of iran is shia.. and no fundamentalist highjackers are not sunni they are salafis or wahhabis.. if i will explain it to you and compare they are like hasidic jews of islam and are not a big population of total of all muslims..

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Originally Posted by tsnajwa

shia is not 'liberal' unless you consider persians and iran to be liberal because majority of iran is shia.. and no fundamentalist highjackers are not sunni they are salafis or wahhabis.. if i will explain it to you and compare they are like hasidic jews of islam and are not a big population of total of all muslims..

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Well you learn something every day.But don't these salafis and wahhabis control the sunni religion?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Unfortunately, Trish the region has form on this topic: the presence of Jews and Christians in the vicinity of Mecca was profoundly important for Muhammad when he was developing his ideas about another monotheist religion, but unlike most other Middle Eastern countries you will not find a synagogue or a church in that country. The Eastern Mediterranean coast in the first half of the 20thc was a vibrant region populated by Arabs, Jews, Greeks, French, English, Russians and son on, attracted by the easy life in a mildy decadent climate but above all by the ability to make money -the same region today is either mostly Jewish or mostly Arab, give or take the minority nationalities who do dirty jobs in Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. This creeping monoculturalism is not enough for bin Laden and the Jihadis but has by now drained the region of its diversity and, if anything, intensified political conflict. It has always struck me how multi-culturalism, so derided by conservatives in the UK, Germany, France and elsewhere, has been fundamental to the success of the USA -not necessarily in its politics, but in its society and societies -there is for me a sense of adventure in New York knowing how many different people live there, with their own beliefs, their own cuisine -much as I like the Middle East, there is only so much rice and chicken that I can eat...

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:iagree::iagree::iagree::Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown :

That is a brilliant post, Stavros. Nothing to add, not necessary.

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and no fundamentalist highjackers are not sunni they are salafis or wahhabis..

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Oh come on... That's like saying "they're not Catholics, they're Jesuits" or "They're not Protestants, they're Baptists". Every organized religion has its share of crazies, hypocrites, frauds, & assorted philosophical twisters of the dogma & tenets. They all have names for their particular set of beliefs within the belief system. I understand that knowlege of such details helps in analyzing the insane actions of certain individuals, but it doesn't affect my statement. In my observations, Shia appears to be the liberal wing of Islam. & yes, that includes Iran. Iraq too. I don't have or want intimate knowlege of the Q'uran or those who follow it. I'm atheist & have no interest in converting. It was just an observation from the outside. The Sunnis seem to be much m9ore conservative in their beliefs.

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Originally Posted by hippifried

Oh come on... That's like saying "they're not Catholics, they're Jesuits" or "They're not Protestants, they're Baptists". Every organized religion has its share of crazies, hypocrites, frauds, & assorted philosophical twisters of the dogma & tenets. They all have names for their particular set of beliefs within the belief system. I understand that knowlege of such details helps in analyzing the insane actions of certain individuals, but it doesn't affect my statement. In my observations, Shia appears to be the liberal wing of Islam. & yes, that includes Iran. Iraq too. I don't have or want intimate knowlege of the Q'uran or those who follow it. I'm atheist & have no interest in converting. It was just an observation from the outside. The Sunnis seem to be much m9ore conservative in their beliefs.

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:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Well said. And in "Christian" African states, the situation for LGBT is every bit as bad as it is in islamic countries. Here in the UK, most of my muslim friends are either shia or sufi, the latter being a tiny minority but imho the most liberal strand of all. And for what it's worth, we also have jewish friends in common.

While I am now pretty much atheist, I grew up in a liberal christian tradition, which I recognise has as much in common with deep-dyed southern baptists as it does with islamic fundamentalism. No religion is truly monolithic.

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Originally Posted by hippifried

Oh come on... That's like saying "they're not Catholics, they're Jesuits" or "They're not Protestants, they're Baptists". Every organized religion has its share of crazies, hypocrites, frauds, & assorted philosophical twisters of the dogma & tenets. They all have names for their particular set of beliefs within the belief system. I understand that knowlege of such details helps in analyzing the insane actions of certain individuals, but it doesn't affect my statement. In my observations, Shia appears to be the liberal wing of Islam. & yes, that includes Iran. Iraq too. I don't have or want intimate knowlege of the Q'uran or those who follow it. I'm atheist & have no interest in converting. It was just an observation from the outside. The Sunnis seem to be much m9ore conservative in their beliefs.

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you are wrong in so many sentences i do not even know where to begin.. first of all iran and iraq are like comparing brazil to argentina. iran is persians, and they speak farsi and they are shias 90% iirc. iraq has majority shia, but there is still 40% sunni iirc, majority of iraqis are arabs and speak ARABIC, and baghdad and iraq has been known for hundreds of years to be liberal and cultural city.. just look at iraqi music videos with girls wearing low cut tops and short shorts and bikinis.. i never see that in iran videos or tv..

and yes denominations are denominations for a reason. maybe to you and in christianity there is little difference but in Islam they are VERY different.. just look at how shias visit grave of husayn and worship prophets and will have pictures of them, while wahhabis beleive they are idol worshippers and are not real muslims etc.. look how wahhabis destroy house of prophet muhammad in saudi arabia a few years ago because they wanted to discourage people from traveling there to visit and 'idol worship'

my point i am making is i know many sunnis who drink alcohol, eat bacon and go to clubs like it is end of the world... but will pray five times a day and be at masjid always.. and i know shia's who are very conservative. so do not generalise like you say..
xxo