An outsider watching the US health care debate

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Originally Posted by trish

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...it is rather disingenuous of you to virtually accuse me of being against socialized medicine.

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It's rather disingenuous of you to literally accuse me of virtually accusing you of taking a position which you virtually support but literally feign not to support. Clever :wink: I'm with Realgirls4me: time for you to get off the figurative fence. We[] have one of the worst infant mortality rates and one of the worst life expectancies among the western developed nations. No other developed nation in the western tradition has so many citizens dying because they're uncovered or going bankrupt because of the illness of a family member. But hey, things aren't as bad as we think they are. After all, who wants longevity when you have to watch your children die, your family go without proper medical care and your house fall into the hands of insurance barons?

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I've shown that our infant mortality rates have little to do with health care and I've shown that, when you adjust for non-health care related deaths (like murders), the US life expectancy is the best in the world. Yet, you ignore those proofs and repeat your talking points. Do you pay attention to anything that doesn't fit your world view?

Where have you shown how many citizens are dying because they are uncovered? One thing to remember is that around a third of the uninsured in America are illegal aliens. Even the much vaunted Canadian system doesn't cover aliens. Why should America's system? And, I've shown where people die in Canada because of funding issues with their health care.

Finally, if insurance companies are so profitable, why don't you buy some stock and become an insurance baron yourself?

Who wants to profit from denying others healthcare?

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

Do you pay attention to anything that doesn't fit your world view?

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Most people here don't. They'll sometimes say they do.....but they don't.

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

Where have you shown how many citizens are dying because they are uncovered?

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http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/0...ar?pc=25&sp=50

Obama's ex-doctor: Insurers 'screwing it up'
Chicago physician says companies are telling doctors how to do their job.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/24/news...ion=2009092506

Attorney General's Investigation Reveals Flawed Lyme Disease Guideline Process, IDSA Agrees To Reassess Guidelines, Install Independent Arbiter
http://www.ct.gov/AG/cwp/view.asp?a=2795&q=414284

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

Where have you shown how many citizens are dying because they are uncovered?

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http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/0...ar?pc=25&sp=50

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Thanks. Unlike Trish, you are willing to try and back up your statements.

However, I'd like to see what the methodology is and how that differs from the Institute Of Medicine study which pegged the rate at under 20,000.

Now, I wonder how many people die in Canada each year because, despite being covered, they are not funded - like those bone marrow transplants Dr. Galal mentioned in the article I cited.

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Originally Posted by trish

Who wants to profit from denying others healthcare?

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Way to dodge the substantive issues.

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

Where have you shown how many citizens are dying because they are uncovered?

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http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/0...ar?pc=25&sp=50

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Thanks. Unlike Trish, you are willing to try and back up your statements.

However, I'd like to see what the methodology is and how that differs from the Institute Of Medicine study which pegged the rate at under 20,000.

Now, I wonder how many people die in Canada each year because, despite being covered, they are not funded - like those bone marrow transplants Dr. Galal mentioned in the article I cited.

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You love bringing up that marrow thing and I've debated that with you. We don't see eye to eye. Move on. And as for Trish, she backs her self up more times than not.

As for your death rate in Canada, here's a quick paragraph...

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Deaths considered preventable through health care are less frequent in Canada than in the U.S., according to a January 2008 report in the journal Health Affairs. In the study by British researchers, Canada placed sixth among 19 countries surveyed, with 77 deaths for every 100,000 people. That compared with the last-place finish of the U.S., with 110 deaths.

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Health insurance companies are answerable to their shareholders. Whether the profits are small or large, they are the primary concern. Corporations will cut costs and increase revenue to secure profits, that’s the name of the game. Deductibles are going up, loopholes are exploited to drop the sick and injured from coverage, and people are denied coverage for diseases and injuries that are exempted by the fine print. Expectant mothers discover to their dismay that their plans don’t cover prenatal care, accounting for our higher rate of c-sections, higher rate of premature births and low weight newborns. The elderly discover their insurance isn’t properly tailored to their needs, because very few people can predict which disease they need to purchase insurance against. Generally it’s not evil to make a profit. Just good business. But to make a profit at the expense of someone’s health is untenable. For profit insurance and for profit health care is wrong and is leading us down the road to moral and financial disaster.

Our child mortality rates are poor and our life expectancy is low compared to other western nations. There have been no contrary demonstrations of these facts. No one posted actuarial tables? No one posted calculations? Links to articles in reason magazine do not constitute proof or demonstration.

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Finally, if insurance companies are so profitable, why don't you buy some stock and become an insurance baron yourself?

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Who wants to profit from denying others healthcare?

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Way to dodge the substantive issues.

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If you weren’t so keen to display your lack of wit and launch ad hominem arguments, you wouldn’t have asked the question?

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Originally Posted by trish

But to make a profit at the expense of someone’s health is untenable. For profit insurance and for profit health care is wrong and is leading us down the road to moral and financial disaster.

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"How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it."
- The opening sentence of Adam Smith's book, "The Theory of Moral Sentiments".
http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/tms/tms-p1-s1-c1.htm

"Is this Adam Smith's greatest book?"
http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/tms-intro.htm