Hey you better look out, Niccolo might report you to some kind of antisemitic foundation, just for exercising your 1rst amendment... And then they will come after you and illegally prosecute you with a roll of duct tape...
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Hey you better look out, Niccolo might report you to some kind of antisemitic foundation, just for exercising your 1rst amendment... And then they will come after you and illegally prosecute you with a roll of duct tape...
El Nino,
Come on man, let's try to move forward here. I did try to lighten the mood a little after you posted about that, and made your own position clear. And we seem to be in agreement about the superiority of Buddhism, in some imporant ways, compared to some other religions. We seem to have a fair bit of common ground there then. I mean, two people agreeing about religion - that's not something you see every day now, is it? Know what I mean?
Maybe the two of us can't achieve a cease fire between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but surely we can make one happen between two individual people, namely you and me? That seems do-able. What do you think?
What's the saying again, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step?
Niccolo
Hi Yosi,Quote:
Originally Posted by yosi
Thats a shame if that is your plight. You are in Southern Israel? It seems you have knowledge of the situation, and I would look forward to a conversation about recent events and what led up to it. Majority on here have no idea really of the regions history as it not taught in schools, and gets only a few minutes in the news. So they revert to comment on the religion as a whole. But I think you would agree, the situation has much to do with land, and religion has been used perhaps as an excuse for their actions. I know that many Israelis feel there is no talking, I disagree. And of course when a war has started, yes its difficult to start talking. I think what I meant more of a long term, and could only be used during times of the cease fire.
Im happy you said extreme muslims. That indicates to me, you recognize they are taking it to the extreme and it is not part of any teachings.
Anyway, a few things I would like to see what you think.
Do you think that, while yes there is Hamas being targeted, the families of those who get innocently killed, would naturally not blame Hamas, but instead would turn their anger towards Israel? Perhaps joining the fight now, and could they really be called a terrorist or would these be reacting in self defense? It seems like both sides just react to each other, but really make no efforts to solve the problem. Each side also seems to try to provoke one another in to the next battle.
Also, what about in general, I mean starting back in 1948. You know of course, Gaza is not the home of these people, and many places they fire rockets into used to be the lands they lived on. Can i ask how this is handled in schools or generally culturally. Is it viewed religiously as Israelis rights, as in the "Promise Land" or is it viewed as the past mistakes or triumphs of other governments? Or something else, I dont want to put words in your mouth.
Stay safe.
The dance continues. No books quotes, Im shocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
Have you reported the UN Officials who have made the same comparison?
the true tragedy in the middle east are the palestinians , sad but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel17TS
you probably know the middle east history better than others here
and you probably know about "The black september" in the 70's , the palestinians were butchered in Jordan , a violence of muslims against muslims , nobody saw or heard anything , far away from the press......
up to these days , this kind of violence is never showed.
the common palestinians went out to celebrate the 11/9 because they were FORCED to do it , do you think that they realy cared about it with so many mouths to feed in this harsh reality?
the Hamas forces , when they feel hungry , go and rob a store or a restaurant , I know it happens , I've seen it with my own eyes , not on television.
the palestinian population are terified by the Hamas, some of them are even made to believe that if they will commit suicide killing as many innocent non-muslims , no matter if it is as a human bomb or flying airplanes to crash on some tall building , promising them afterwards 72 female virgins that will be his in heaven...........
do you think that the Hamas leaders will go and commit a suicide?
is the Islam realy says so? I doubt it............
the silence of the arab world about it is screaming in my ears.....realy.
it is the Hamas interest to keep the palestinians as they are , poor , ignorant , and easy to dominate , just like Saddam Hussein did in Iraq.
ever wondered why there are no democracies in the arab world? ok , maybe almost none.
in democratic countries , poeple like the Hamas , will find themselves in jail , where they belong.
If you have difficulty understanding the simple statement: "Islam is an ideology, not a race" then that's your problem, not mine. If you genuinely think that criticism of one has anything at all to do with the other, then go ahead and argue for that. Start by defining your terms. Good luck!Quote:
Niccolo wrote:
Quote:
It was obviously said tongue in cheek as they say. And again, 90% of the posts in here is outright racism towards Arabs/Muslims, yet the silence is deafening. People shouldn't get angry just becuase the view is different than their own.
I don't think this is really the appropriate place to discuss religion, so I wont get involved in that side of it. And, I don't even have an issue if people feel I am wrong or should die some horrible death for my beliefs. At least they come out and say it. Niccolo, you guise your hate in book quotes, which never seem to end for some reason. Have you any opinions based on personal experience with Muslims, Gazans, or Jews in Israel? I think those opinions are far more valuable, even if I were to disagree. Actually I find your comments far worse than all others on here, becuase you dance around what you want to say by directing people to others writings. Just becuase its in a book, it doesn't make it right. It just makes it another mans opinion. Angel17TS
Once again: Islam is an ideology, not a race. It's that simple.
And according to you, nonexistent comments which I haven't actually made anywhere are - in your opinion - the worst comments on this thread. This coming from someone who thinks that their own comment about Jews learning how to gas people in the camps is funny.
Sweet!
The dance continues. No books quotes, Im shocked.
You know, there is no need for you to carry on like a silly little girl. I don't know who you are trying to impress with such childish behaviour. You have shown that you can engage in a real discussion on this extremely thorny topic, in a thoughtful and mature manner. Anyone reading your posts can see that this is a better approach.
Don't you think?
zaron,
1) It’s you who’s meandering around the points I raised. Try addressing them instead.
2) You will find the translation of the Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith, recognised as reliable by all schools of Islamic scholarship, on the website of the Centre for Muslim-Jewish Engagement - the translation is by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, and from the hadith dealing with wedlock, book 62, we find the following:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
3) Rest assured, I’m well aware of the history of the Knights of St. John. I can say with some authority that your “nutshell version” is a very poor effort. Since you brought it up though, I'll mention that the Knights’ “forerunner” was in fact a fellow called Brother Gerard, who was the head of a hospice for pilgrims in Jerusalem around 1080. The historian Ernle Bradford, who served in the Royal Navy during WWII, wrote:
“The Order that Gerard founded anticipated by many centuries all subsequent organisations devoted to the care of the poor and the sick throughout the world. In his ideals he echoed the Founder of Christianity. Members of the Order were enjoined to consider the poor as “our lords, whose servants we acknowledge ourselves to be”. They were also to dress as humbly as did the poor. The nobility of Gerard’s aims and life would be hard to equal at any time, but in the twelfth century, when the western world was based on the feudal concept of lord and serf, they were exceptional. His epitaph is hardly an exaggeration: “Here lies Gerard, the most humble man in the East and the servant of the poor. He was hospitable to all strangers, a gentle man with a courageous heart. One can judge within these walls just how good he was. Provident and active in every kind of way, he stretched out his arms to many lands in order to obtain whatever he needed to feed his people.” (Bradford, “The Shield and The Sword,” Penguin, pp. 24 – 25.)
The Order of Malta is still with us today, and carries out humanitarian and medical work throughout the world. Their relief organisations and ambulance corps operate in over thirty countries. Their latest projects include the inauguration of a children's home and playground in Sri Lanka; running an information campaign about bird flu in refugee camps, and providing business training for indigent women in Thailand; providing support for earthquake victims in Pakistan; and vaccinating children and providing assistance to pregnant women in Darfur, Sudan.
I don’t know if you have been misinformed, or if you are being disingenuous, but so far as your biased portrayal of the Knights of St. John goes, well how can I put this ... you are providing less than half the story, and that out of context.
Your “meandering” around the plain fact that the Knights of St. John successfully defended Malta - and Europe - against an Islamic empire (not some unknown and un-named form of “religious extremism”) is just laughable, and your supposed “doubt” about the significance of the Knights’ sacrifice, and that of the Maltese people too, as they stopped the Ottoman Empire in its tracks in 1565, is irrelevant. The facts speak for themselves. And if we ever need someone to speak for them, we have writers such as Ernle Bradford and Roger Crowley (Please do read “Empires of The Sea”).
4) I have to comment on your use of the concept of doubt in order to make your argument. If someone said to you that they doubted whether any of the events from the last 60 yrs regarding the Palestinians had “any real relevance historically outside of the sentimental”, would you regard that as a convincing argument, and throw aside your “kinship” with the Palestinians? No? You wouldn’t? Well, your argument is equally unimpressive.
5) If you want to deal with women being raped and then being vilified (and worse) for being raped, then I suggest you look into “honour killing”- an absolutely appalling practice. As it happens, the Institute for the Study of Civil Society (CIVITAS) recently prepared a report on this, and if you’re at all interested, it is worth reading. (Here’s the link.)
Niccolo.
Niccolo,Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
Look up at the topic title. It says "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09". It does not say "Muslims why they are evil people who should be dehumanized and persecuted". Let me slow it down and s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t f-o-r y-o-u: the topic is current events of innocent Palestinians being killed.
Though I understand that distracting people by changing the subject to one where you get to dehumanize muslims and Palestinians and in effect justifying their persecution is useful to your personal interests, it does not have anything to do with the topic, "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09". So to say I am meandering by sticking on topic is a complete bold face lie. I have addressed all of your nonsense even though the vast majority of it is about bullshit from 1000 years ago.
FYI: The words used are nikah and dukah for the events that occur at 6 and 9 respectively. Now, nikah which is the equivalent of an engagement or in Islam a legal binding promise to be in state of marriage and dukah is when the woman moves into the man's house and becomes his wife. Intercourse may or may not happen but it is rarely documented in religious texts.
Furthermore, even if he was a pedophile and the worst person in the history of the world, it does not matter. It still does not justify killing innocent Palestinians and if you think it does why don't you just say that outright?
None of the things you say about the Knights of St. John changes the fact that the knights who transformed the group from a hospital to a military order, were the very same ruthless knights who participated in the crusades which concluded with the slaughter of Jerusalem's people. Nor does it change the fact that after they were expelled from Jerusalem they conducted a military campaign against fellow Christians in Rhodes which led to their eventual "acquisition" of Rhodes. Over time this order may have evolved into a force for good but its role in history (as long as it is not written by the pope) is not as saintly as you would make it out to be. Again, who cares about this? What is the relevance of the Knights of St. John to the topic of "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09"?
The events of the last 60 years have a direct causal link to what happens today and you can see the continuous thread of events that have led to what happens today that is why these events are relevant. There is no causal link or apparent chain of events between what happened over a 1000 years ago and today, except maybe in your convoluted logic.
Yes, honour killings are appalling. Does this mean that it is ok to essentially do the same to Palestinians? Why not say so outright if that is what you mean?
It is starting to strike me that you are the only person here at this point who is making negative stereotyping remarks about a people and their core values. Nobody has come out and said that all Jews are evil because of the actions of the Israeli state or even because of ridiculous sweeping remarks that individuals like you throw out in the guise of discourse. It leads me to believe that you as an individual are just a bitter little man, you want empathy for yourself but have none for others. I think the best thing for you to do is to go out and actually meet, get to know and make friends with someone who is muslim so that you can grow out of this bitter hate filled cocoon you seem to have woven yourself into. The internet and books are not adequate substitutes for the perspective gained through human contact.
Best of luck.
And look at the video given in support of that topic title. It does not show a scene after an IDF attack in Gaza, on 1/1/09 or any other time. It shows how Hamas gunmen allowed a crowd of children to gather round a lorryload of explosives and then one of the incompetent bastards had an ND and set the whole lot off.Quote:
Look up at the topic title. It says "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09". It does not say "Muslims why they are evil people who should be dehumanized and persecuted". Let me slow it down and s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t f-o-r y-o-u: the topic is current events of innocent Palestinians being killed.
Isn't that right? Watch the video.
Though I understand that distracting people by putting that title above a video showing people dying because of something that Hamas did, or changing the subject whenever anyone points that out to one where people get to attack Israel, or trying to justify the persecution of anyone criticising Islam (which is an ideology, not a race), will prevent some people from realising that the scene the video shows is one of people dying because Hamas likes their kiddies to learn all about guns, oh yes - read the article accompanying the video - and because some stupid incompetent Hamas gunman had an ND, and ended up blowing a heap of people to bits.
Quote:
A second front to the conflict in the Gaza Strip has opened up in Europe, where a wave of reprisal attacks against Jewish targets is stoking fears of a wider resurgence of anti-Semitism on the continent. Far from simply being a spate of isolated incidents, as many Europeans claim, anti-Semitic violence is becoming more commonplace in every country in Europe. At the same time, anti-Israel demonstrations, which have strong anti-Semitic overtones, are being held with alarming frequency in cities across Europe.
In France, the National Bureau of Vigilance Against Anti-Semitism says it has received more than 100 reports of anti-Semitic violence since the start of Israel’s military operation in Gaza on December 27. Recent incidents include arson attacks against synagogues and Jewish community centers in several French cities, as well as physical assaults of Jews in Paris and elsewhere.
[...]
Many European newspaper commentators are saying that concerns about anti-Semitism in Europe are overblown. They argue that the Jew haters are a tiny minority on the extreme political right who are given far more attention than they deserve. They also say that those concerned about the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe are confusing legitimate criticism of Israeli policies with anti-Semitism.
But myriad polling data show that all across Europe, the fine line between valid criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism has been dangerously blurred. An opinion poll in Germany, for example, shows that more than 50 percent of Germans equate Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians with Nazi treatment of the Jews. Sixty-eight percent of Germans say that Israel is waging a “war of extermination” against the Palestinian people. In terms of Europe as a whole, another poll shows that the majority of Europeans regard Israel as the greatest threat to world peace.
Opinions as grossly irrational as these imply that for many Europeans, anti-Israelism has become a convenient smokescreen for anti-Semitism. Taking this logic full-circle, the belief that Israel is the main force for evil in the world also acts to further legitimize anti-Semitism.
But how can Europeans, who famously pride themselves on being more sophisticated than everyone else, be so woefully ignorant about the reality of the situation in Israel? Much of the blame lies with Europe’s leftwing mass media establishment, which for many years has been systematically and unabashedly purveying the idea that to be anti-Israel (and anti-American and pro-pacifist) is to be sophisticated and politically correct.
Of course, the gatekeepers of European multiculturalism understand that it would be unsophisticated and politically incorrect to be openly anti-Semitic. But self-righteous criticism of Israel is another matter altogether. Thus European publics are being bombarded with round-the-clock, knee-jerk, anti-Israel political bigotry disguised as news coverage. By making such deception fashionable, European media are inciting anti-Semitism.
In one of the more outrageous examples of anti-Israel media bias, France 2 national public television used an outdated amateur video of Palestinian casualties from an accidental truck explosion in 2005 as current footage demonstrating the violence in Gaza. The video shows dead bodies of babies being laid out on white sheets. France 2 was forced to come clean when a French political blog uncovered the trickery. (France 2 also was responsible for a September 2000 report, accused of being a fake, of the supposed shooting death of Mohammed al-Dura, a 12-year-old Palestinian boy, by the Israeli army.)
[...]
Meanwhile, the European political class, which is hyper-sensitive to anti-Muslim bigotry, has remained largely indifferent to the problem of rising anti-Semitism. A recent report on the epidemic of anti-Semitic violence in the European Union shows that most European countries do not even keep official records of anti-Semitic crimes. (The first such report, which was published by the EU’s Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia in late 2003, was initially suppressed and only publicized after months of public outcry.)
European officialdom seems afraid to admit that Europe has a problem with anti-Semitism because doing so would shatter the myth that supports one of the main pillars of European self-identity. After all, European elites would like the world to believe that the European Union is a postmodern multicultural utopia where people of all tribes, tongues, and nations live together in perfect harmony.
Of course, the European political left is also pursuing an ideological battle to eradicate Judeo-Christian influences from European culture. Part of the strategy to achieve their objective involves embracing a host of Muslim causes. And so millions of Europeans have eagerly joined ranks with Islam’s 60-year challenge to Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Indeed, when European commentators proclaim that Israel is a Nazi, apartheid, pariah state, they are deliberately calling into question Israel’s legitimacy. What is clear is that European anti-Semitism says a lot more about the state of contemporary Europe than it does about the State of Israel. - Soeren Kern
Quote:
Furthermore, even if he was a pedophile and the worst person in the history of the world, it does not matter. It still does not justify killing innocent Palestinians and if you think it does why don't you just say that outright?
If you'd bothered to actually read what I said you'll see that in the first instance, Kaiti had made some comments about Islam - and once again, Islam is an ideology and not a race - and was roundly criticised for doing so. One of the things she said was that their prophet was a paedophile, and she also said that he had done things which today would be considered acts of terrorism. In response to the personal attacks which ensued, I sent in what was (I think) my first post on this thread, wondering why it was that people could freely criticise Israel, even though the actual video at the top of the thread showed Hamas gunmen managing to kill heaps of people, and yet whenever Kaiti made comments criticising Islam (again: Islam is an ideology and not a race) she was attacked for doing so?
It is perfectly possible for one to have studied Islam, to whatever extent one is able, given one's everyday time constraints, real-life commitments etc., and to reach the conclusions Kaiti did. I tried to show that. And in answer to your question, it obviously does matter. Kaiti would be right, and the people who attacked her would be wrong to do so. (And that's just the consequences of that being true here on this board. Obviously the consequences out in the real world would be fucking massive - if it could be acknowledged openly.)
I presented an analogy showing how alike the barbaric acts commited by the Japanese before and during WWII, to fellow Asians and Allied POWs alike, were to some of the acts commited by devout Muslims throughout history, not least their Prophet, who beheaded a tribe of Jewish prisoners who had already surrendered, raped one of the widows and sold the rest of the women and children into slavery. I asked why one could criticise the Japanese for doing such things, but excuse someone else - far from addressing this effectively, all you said was that the beheading of prisoners by the Japanese and the beheading of prisoners by Islamic warriors are "not comparable." That there's "definitely a difference." Some argument, that! I bet it took you a long time to get that one ready before posting it!
For you to say that you have addressed what was put before you - that is obviously nonsense.