Obama is smooth...

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Originally Posted by buttslinger

Welcome to the 21st century.
OK, I'll bite. Who should "our leader" be?

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I don't know. I do know that in a nation with 313,370,000 people we can do better than the clowns (on both sides of the aisle) that are currently running things.

Actually, I don't feel that elections (being glorified popularity contests) are necessarily the best way to have a "representative" government. I think voting does have it's place in certain applications though (like ballot initiatives, local issues, ect...).

we can do better than the clowns (on both sides of the aisle) that are currently running things.


You would think so.....

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Originally Posted by zulusierra

I don't know. I do know that in a nation with 313,370,000 people we can do better than the clowns (on both sides of the aisle) that are currently running things.

Actually, I don't feel that elections (being glorified popularity contests) are necessarily the best way to have a "representative" government. I think voting does have it's place in certain applications though (like ballot initiatives, local issues, ect...).

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Maybe the best leader is no leader. Alan Moore explicates. By anarchy he means libertarianism. (Alan Moore wrote V for Vendetta.)
So, what would a libertarian society look like? Well, your guess is as good as mine. But there are different factions, as it were.
There is right leaning libertarianism associated with the likes of Ludwig Von Mises, Murray Rothbard and Ron Paul. And left-leaning libertarianism associated with the likes of Murray Bookchin, Rudolf Rocker and Noam Chomsky. So, pick your political poison -- ha ha! :))

Alan Moore on Anarchism - YouTube

Noam Chomsky on Libertarian Socialism - YouTube

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Originally Posted by catherinefan

One of these guys loved war.........the other does not.

I would not call that a slight difference!

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Obama isn't a dove. Never has been. Look I, myself, am not a pacifist. It isn't realistic. Or sensible. (And, too, to suggest that Obama wants peace, well, everyone wants peace. Even Bush wanted peace. He asked Hussein and his sons to leave Iraq in '03 so we could have peace.)
I mean, Obama could've -- and still can -- simply pulled out of Afghanistan if he detested war. (We eventually pulled out of Vietnam. So, when do we leave?) I mean, what's the endgame? Why are American troops still in Afghanistan?
I agree with Ron Paul on this issue. He's right.

This War Is Illegal! Ron Paul Afghanistan War Debate - YouTube

Bush -- wanting peace:

Archive: George Bush threatens Iraq 03-17-03 pt 1 - YouTube

And Obama:

Barack Obama on Afghanistan - YouTube

You guys don't seem to remember this whole thing is a crapshoot anyway. Some Dream Jefferson had that men could live in a country without a King. If Bush had pursued Bin Laden and killed him in 2002, the war would have been over then and there. Cheney would be President now. The Bush years were a complete and total disaster.

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Originally Posted by Ben

Obama isn't a dove. Never has been. Look I, myself, am not a pacifist. It isn't realistic. Or sensible. (And, too, to suggest that Obama wants peace, well, everyone wants peace. Even Bush wanted peace. He asked Hussein and his sons to leave Iraq in '03 so we could have peace.)
I mean, Obama could've -- and still can -- simply pulled out of Afghanistan if he detested war. (We eventually pulled out of Vietnam. So, when do we leave?) I mean, what's the endgame? Why are American troops still in Afghanistan?
I agree with Ron Paul on this issue. He's right.

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We (the US, the UK and the rest of the allies) invaded Afghanistan in 2001 when all the intell pointed to Bin Laden being in Pakistan. Wonder what happened there....?

There's also a good case for saying that the CIA essentially armed and made the Taliban into a credible fighting force in the first place on the basis that anyone fighting the Russians during the cold war was our friend, proving that it's possible to be both doctrinaire and hopelessly naive at the same time.

Bush and Blair got us into the fuckup that was Iraq by lying and into Afghanistan by a knowingly wilful misinterpretation of intelligence. As with most politicians, they have left the stage, amassed their fortunes and left their successors to clear up the mess.

Afghanistan is both intractable and probably insoluble as a military conundrum. But the mess that we are in is very largely of our own making. If we walk away too soon - and we will - the Afghan people will be left to carry the can, the Taliban will take over, and the country will tumble back into the dark ages of theocratic tyranny.

I don't see a solution, but at the same time the thought of the west abandoning the Afghans to their grisly fate sticks in my craw. There's a moral responsibility here. The question is how many of our soldiers' lives have to be lost before the calls for withdrawal become overwhelming.

I don't envy the politicians in their options, but I do believe that Obama and to a certain extent Cameron, are acting as sincerely and honestly as the dreadful circumstances allow.

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Originally Posted by Ben

Obama isn't a dove. Never has been. Look I, myself, am not a pacifist. It isn't realistic. Or sensible. (And, too, to suggest that Obama wants peace, well, everyone wants peace. Even Bush wanted peace. He asked Hussein and his sons to leave Iraq in '03 so we could have peace.)
I mean, Obama could've -- and still can -- simply pulled out of Afghanistan if he detested war. (We eventually pulled out of Vietnam. So, when do we leave?) I mean, what's the endgame? Why are American troops still in Afghanistan?
I agree with Ron Paul on this issue. He's right.

This War Is Illegal! Ron Paul Afghanistan War Debate - YouTube

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I'm sure Obama isn't a dove but to suggest that Bush actually wanted peace......... Why then would he have started that war with Irak on totally false grounds, thereby forcing other countries to support his crooked plan? More than a million innocent civilians died in this totally unnecessary war. People that did have nothing at all to do with 9/11.

And unlike the victims of 9/11.......no-one remembers them.

#ObamaDogRecipes Michael Vick's Ol' Fashioned Backyard Jambalaya

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

We (the US, the UK and the rest of the allies) invaded Afghanistan in 2001 when all the intell pointed to Bin Laden being in Pakistan. Wonder what happened there....?

There's also a good case for saying that the CIA essentially armed and made the Taliban into a credible fighting force in the first place on the basis that anyone fighting the Russians during the cold war was our friend, proving that it's possible to be both doctrinaire and hopelessly naive at the same time.

Bush and Blair got us into the fuckup that was Iraq by lying and into Afghanistan by a knowingly wilful misinterpretation of intelligence. As with most politicians, they have left the stage, amassed their fortunes and left their successors to clear up the mess.

Afghanistan is both intractable and probably insoluble as a military conundrum. But the mess that we are in is very largely of our own making. If we walk away too soon - and we will - the Afghan people will be left to carry the can, the Taliban will take over, and the country will tumble back into the dark ages of theocratic tyranny.

I don't see a solution, but at the same time the thought of the west abandoning the Afghans to their grisly fate sticks in my craw. There's a moral responsibility here. The question is how many of our soldiers' lives have to be lost before the calls for withdrawal become overwhelming.

I don't envy the politicians in their options, but I do believe that Obama and to a certain extent Cameron, are acting as sincerely and honestly as the dreadful circumstances allow.

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Agreed. Well said...