Well, no sense trying to communicate with someone so hysterical.
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Well, no sense trying to communicate with someone so hysterical.
I'm sorry. Given the title of the thread and given "communications" likeQuote:
Originally Posted by the_unnatural
I just sort of thought we implicitly agreed to speak in hyperbole.Quote:
you have a giant police-state snowball running out of contro
Here's a couple more just for fun:
Seems more than half the black population of this Nation has been behind bars since the seventies. (Before that they were being lynched and murdered by the KKK). But let a white man's car be subject to search on the reasonable assumption it may contain drugs and BAM...we're living in a giant police state.
Do we live in a police state? In a police state, complete totalitarian control resides with the executive. Anyone makes the executive unhappy and they’re disappeared. OH MY GOD! That’s what happened to Eric Cantor!! That explains why all three branches of government seem to be acting together in machine like lockstep. It's a giant fucking snowballing police state!!!!
No. We don't live in a police state. We don't come anywhere near the definition. There is a lot of shit wrong with this country, but being a police state is not one of them. It's not the government but the culture. Of course an elected government is a manifestation of the culture.
We are a culture that glorifies competition over cooperation. We prefer to privatize services rather than sponsor them. We hate taxes. We love lotteries. We choose religion over science. We say we love freedom but we'd rather incarcerate a man than address a deep social problem. You can count on us to bring a gun to a debate. We're tough on blue collar criminals but easy on root causes of crime.
These are the policies that politicians run on. These are the policies that get them elected. We're the one's that voted for the war on drugs; we're the ones who voted to get tough on crime (perhaps not you personally-certainly not me- but that is exactly what the electorate wanted). I'm not surprised to find our schools deteriorating, our rivers polluted, our populace maimed with stray bullets from the guns of private citizens, our pensions raided, our bankers getting bigger bonuses than ever, our prisons (more numerous than almost any other nation's in the world) full to overflowing. I'm not surprised because these are the natural consequences of the policies that seem to appeal to the American voter.
The problem doesn't lie with The Other. It's not the government per se. We are the government. The Other is Us. The problem is us. We're not a compassionate nor a thoughtful people. We don't usually vote for compassion nor for thoughtfulness. We want to be tough. Tough on crime. Tough on drugs. Tough on terrorists. Tough lazy louts who won't work for a living. Tough on immigration. Tough on everything. That's what we got...not a police state...just a tough, tough government that mirrors our collective soul and every blemish.
Collecting DNA at checkpoints. Seizing property of people charged with no crime. Busting down the doors of tomato growers. Nope--nothing like a police state.
You obviously choose to ignore any of the stories I've linked. Go ahead--fixate on the snowball and rant away. I'm done with you.
Obviously you chose to ignore the very definition of a police state: a state where the executive has totalitarian power. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that our executive branch as the opposite of totalitarian power over the Congress. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that you can complain in a public forum about living in a police state without getting your ass hauled off to jail. Obviously you chose to ignore that all the infractions of which you complain are a direct result of policies the electorate voted for. These are not characteristics of a police state. They are the characteristics of an ignorant, small minded electorate.
You want a government that’s tough on crime, you’ll get prisons. You want tough on undocumented immigrants you’ll get searches and ID checks. You want tough on drugs, you’ll get more searches. You want tough on terrorists, you’ll get wire-tapping. You want security, you’ll get airport searches and full body X-rays. You get the consequences of what you vote for. You want free and unregulated enterprise, you’ll get jobs with no pensions and slave wages. You want stand-your-ground laws you’ll get more shoot-outs.
You want to provide safety nets, diminish poverty, encourage learning and research, clean air and water, a safe food supply, public lands all can enjoy, highways, bridges, dams, disaster money for regions hit by fire and flood, you want firemen, 911 services, etc. etc. Then you’ll get some taxes.
Ouch! Forget taxes! How much is the tough-on-every government?
Great points, Trish. All of them.
You are quite the debatetrix.
There is no such thing as paranoia. Your worst fears can come true at any moment - Hunter S ThompsonQuote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
Seems more than half the black population of this Nation has been behind bars since the seventies. (Before that they were being lynched and murdered by the KKK). But let a white man's car be subject to search on the reasonable assumption it may contain drugs and BAM...we're living in a giant police state. [/QUOTE]
No Im talking about what the government is doing to all people - especially the black population. BTW Im part Cherokee - please ask me some time what the government did to far more than half of my people. And on that note my tribe was told that we were paranoid, there was nothing to worry about... told not to fight back, not to question - until it was far too late for it to do any good.
Actually its fast becoming one and if you look at the rate that our rights have been eroded yes its the "snowball" effect. And yes people are disappeared - NDAA declares the whole country a battleground in the war on terror authorizes "indefinite detention" of anyone suspected of being part of a terror plot - without defining what that means. Not to mention a "War on Terror" is a forever war - there will never be a winner or a loser, no one can claim victory and it will never ever end. "but Nobody's disappeared" Ill save you the time of that argument - if someone is vanished how would you ever know? - how would you prove it?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
No. We don't live in a police state. We don't come anywhere near the definition. There is a lot of shit wrong with this country, but being a police state is not one of them. It's not the government but the culture. Of course an elected government is a manifestation of the culture.
And I couldnt agree more with that statement - we kick in the door for a nickel bag of pot and spend 12 MILLION $$$ to raid Tommy Chong a 1970's comedian for selling glass bongs. AKA police stateQuote:
Originally Posted by trish
Correct the problem lies with us - we are to blame completely - the government took control through fear and we all bought into it - tough on crime because criminals are scary - touch on drugs because smoking Reefer drives you insane - Tough on Terror because we cant let them win so guy buy another big mac - tough on security because we need to keep all those terrorists posing as punk rock bands from getting on the airplane -Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
now let me drop the sarcasm here - we let the last hope of holding on to our freedom trickle through our fingers over 50 years ago and we as a people can be convinced to be afraid of our own shadow at the drop of a hat so we progressively voted in a government that purposed stronger and stronger civilian authority to protect us against whatever ghost we were most scared of a the time. And that my dear is historically how ever police state gains power.
We fucked up - we threw our freedom away - where you and I differ is in thinking that a little ink in the right check box is going to ever bring it back.
you define a police state to the extreme - I define ours as one still a bit more subtle than that but growing daily.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I pay my taxes - no problem with that - I just question what they are spent on - here is a little trivia - last year we spent 7.4 billion on the failed F35 fighter alone - that same amount could would have been enough to provide homes, food and medical assistance to every single homeless person in our country with ample money to spare.
Freedom to talk on a forum without the police knocking down my door - nope they havent done it yet but with the money pouring into internet surveillance of all types I will guarantee my name is on a list somewhere just like yours is for taking part in this discussion. Another little trivia bit - I dont just do porn and rock n roll - my "day to day" gig is as a network engineer - any guesses who has approached me more than once to work on a "homeland" project.
That's because the terminology you used is extreme. The Soviet Union during Stalin's reign was a police state because the ruling party exerted near total control over all political and economic life. People were regularly made to disappear based on the barest of suspicions. The suspicions themselves were over actions such as dissent, an indictment based purely on subversive thoughts without any affirmative act at all. That you would even attempt to conflate the present situation in the U.S with that most ghastly of historical examples was destructive to your credibility ab initio.Quote:
Originally Posted by TempestTS
North Korea? Nazi Germany? Have you seen a concentration camp? A gulag? A prison camp in North Korea?
When you say guarantee, do you mean guarantee, or simply that you believe it might be the case? Because guarantee means it is a certainty. If it's just your opinion or you think it's a strong probability based on your judgment, that's not really a guarantee.Quote:
Originally Posted by TempestTS
completely nuts lol .
tldr ... so did the victims in the OP sue the state and get cash/justice for their alleged troubles ?
Yes I am well versed in the history of those autocracies as well as our own - as I stated before Im part Native American, Cherokee, my great Great grandmother was shipped to the Midwest on an orphan train - care to ask me why she was an orphan?Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
it all starts somewhere - that kind of control isnt an overnight happening - perhaps you could do with a history lesson yourself - none of those camps, gulags and prisons popped up over night - none were as horrible in the beginning as they became. What if you could go back and stop it before it got that way ? Would you? or would you hold your tongue because you might be called a dissident and considered subversive?
Once again if Im wrong there is absolutely nothing to worry about - Ill take being wrong any day - gladly
I have the greatest of admiration and respect for you as a woman and as a musician and in other ways Tempest, but i think you have a rather warped view of things and clearly do not really understand the nature of a "police state."
Can I suggest that you try reading about the situation in Eastern Europe and especially East Germany before the collapse of communism where the Stasi spied on everyone (A good primer is the book "The Stasi Files" or the movie "The Lives of Others") consider the situation in North Korea now or in Rumania before the overthrow of Ceaucescu or under Stalin in Russia or Mao in China. Consider the treatment meted out to dissenters in modern iran or to those who fail to observe the religious rules in Saudi Arabia. These are real authoritarian police states. These are places where to even talk about the dictator could get you imprisoned, tortured or killed.
Yes the fate of the native Americans is a deep and terrible stain on the history of the USAbut that does not make the modern US a police state. It is one of the freest nations in the modern world - despite the dubious activities of the CIA and NSA. There is much that is wrong with the US. Many things that all Americans need to work to correct. But if you look at the past 50 years and the progress of ethnic minorities, the civl rights recoms, gay rights etc etc... and in the past decade the election of the first African American President then surely you can see that there is much that is good and positive about the US (even when it has slipped into aggression against foreign nations under your previous president George W Bush). Perhaps after your next election it might even have its first female president. All signs of progress. No nation is perfect. No system is perfect. But the US is closer than most to being a civilised and acceptable place.
In modern america where are the pogroms, where are the extermination camps, the gulags, the forced re-education of mililons, the mass vanishings of sectors of the population ?
The German concentration camps sprang into existence all over Germany just weeks after Hitler became Chancellor, and the NAZI party usurped power. Storm troopers and local police in every province arrested anyone who was imagined to be a political opponent to the party and thrown into a detention camp, if not shot. Given the depressed state that Germany was in after WWI, this turn of events was, in hind sight, predictable; but at the time it was about as efficient and as sudden as one can imagine. These camps didn’t slowly evolve from resort hotels into dens of death and squalor. They pretty much sprang full blown into existence that way. It certainly didn’t take no fifty years which is the time span you keep bringing up when complaining about the U.S. becoming a “police state.”
It’s ludicrous to compare the U.S. to NAZI Germany. What U.S. political party is the analog of the NAZi party? The dems? The republicans? Which one is arresting and assassinating political opponents? (Which one is sending spies into the conferences of the opposition party? ) Who’s Hitler? What central figure is orchestrating the take over of this fantasy police state that we have to rise up and fight against? Obama? At the end of his second term he won’t have gotten half his appointments approved! Is it Boehner? How about the Koch brothers? Are they pulling all the strings? Certainly there is no overt political power in charge of this “police state.” It must be a shadow agency. The Illuminati perhaps? A cabal of Jewish, Wall Street bankers, maybe? Who is it? And if we dismember the government as you advise, why wouldn’t this shadow agency just step up and take over? What would stop it? What’s stopping it now, other than the fact that it doesn’t exist and anyone who would wield political power in the Nation at the current time ultimately has to win a majority of the electorate?
Ours is about as far as you can get from a police state. Police states are efficient and centrally controlled. If anything, our government is inefficient and somewhat dysfunctional.
You get what you vote for. You vote for policies that are tough on crime, you’re going to get prisons and police. You vote to get tough on immigrants you’re gonna get searches, and ID checks. You wanna get tough on terrorists you’re gonna get Homeland Security providing local police forces with all kinds of gear they never seen before except in movies__and they’re gonna find excuses to use it. The more people vote for get-tough-policies the more inexperienced police we’ll see on the street exercising bad judgment. You ask whether ink on paper can put a stop to this? Of course. Enough little ovals filled in with black marker can easily do it. Because we’re the shadow figures controlling the strings and making those silly politicians dance and say all the silly things they say.
In all sincerity I am very sorry what happened to your family. The United States committed grave atrocities against the Native American people. It is a dark stain on American history and human history. That doesn't mean the U.S. is currently a police state and has restricted all political freedom or quashed dissent in the way you indicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by TempestTS
I know of at least nine members of my family who died in extermination camps. They lived in occupied Europe during WWII, but not within Germany. But if you take a look at the Nuremberg Laws you can get a flavor for how quickly things went downhill in Nazi Germany. This was as early as 1935.
Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
It's not as if one day the Germans were executing a no knock warrant looking for contraband and the next day Jews were forbidden from marrying those of German stock. Or that people's conversations were being monitored and then the next day they were sent to concentration camps. This was the ethos from the night of the long knives forward.
In North Korea, people are sent to prison camps for saying anything considered hostile to the regime. People are executed summarily, without any right of appeal, and often for crimes that no civilized society would consider capital (vandalism, burglary). Some argue that our system of capital punishment is barbaric, and I think it should be abolished, but a system that only allows execution for murder and has multiple layers of appeal is not on a slippery slope to midnight executions of political opponents.
In NK, people are forbidden from having contact with the outside world, forbidden from leaving the country, restricted in their movements around the country, forced to have abortions, persecuted for their religious beliefs (and I don't mean forced to sponsor health care that includes coverage for contraception), and systematically starved to death. If you are interested in how this came about in North Korea, take a look at Kim Il-Sung's reign over NK and his practical deification within that country. Though I am not an expert on their history, it does not appear to have been gradual. I simply fail to see how policies legitimately tailored to fighting crime and subjected to judicial review can transform into a cult of personality where a leader considered a deity and thought to control the weather starves and imprisons a terrified populace.
It's not ludicrous. For the sake of discussion, bringing up striking similarities of the current USA to Nazi Controlled Germany are relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
- The Schutz Staffel which translated into it's political and police use, means Protection Department. Germany's Nazi Policies , were so blatantly aggressive and considered dangerous, that it was indeed needed to create a "Protection Department" to protect Germany and most notably , it's government and ideology.from people who did not agree with the government's policies domestically, or externally. The SS conducted assassinations and operations outside of Germany, prior to the start of military hostilities of World War 2
- Department of Homeland Security (notice even the similarity of the name to Protection Department?), was formed as a reaction to the 9/11 events. Seen at the surface, this appears to be a completely necessary move and was accepted by, although begrudgingly by some, most Americans.
these are facts except the part about the names being similar.
Now to the similarities.
- Both the SS and DHS, serve(d) a country, whose political , military and social behavior , were not agreed with internally and externally by opposition groups in other countries and within the countries. The DHS, was formed as a counter to the terrorism experienced by the USA, after 9/11. However, one must ask. Why is there terrorism in against/within the USA?
Well, like Germany during the Nazi Era, the USA , has a questionable foreign policy of protecting the best interests of the country. Sounds ludicrous? It's not. The USA , regardless if we agree or not (on this board) has been conducting a foreign policy that is not necessarily in the best interest of those affected. From the ill-advised invasions, assassinations, interventions and propaganda distributed in other countries, the USA is not far from Nazi Era Germany in terms of being regarded as an evil, meddling self serving country.
Nazi era Germany (and the USA since 2001) knew full well, that their foreign and internal policies, were being met with resistance, and sometimes violence.
This is NO DIFFERENT , to the USA's policies of about the last 30-40 years. Done under the guise of protecting American Interests.
What is the result of such policies, intervention and ideologies? Well, for the initiator, it seems righteous and like something that HAS TO BE DONE.
To the affected , it definitely does not feel like that. And some will be subjugated to the will of the government, and some will rebel, manifest or fight the oppression. The rebellion (the USA calls them insurgencies) against USA military occupations, propaganda, and interventions , is met with resistance from simple to demonstrations, to all out fighting.
The USA and Nazi era Germany, are two countries, whose questionable foreign policies and outward disregard for foreign and internal opinion, led them to create departments specifically for the purpose of protecting the country from before mentioned opponents.
The difference is, Nazi era German did it quicker. In the USA , it is a more gradual, perhaps not as open, evolution into a quasi-Police State such as Nazi era Germany.
The are other similarities. Such as the continuing erosion of certain civil rights (happened in germany). If you keep up with politics, and law changes, you can detect changes to basic civil rights, that were not there before, and nobody notices until it happens to them. The passing of the Patriot ACT is a blatant example of this. and the knee jerk reaction to 9/11.
also, escalated racial bias (muslims are a very maligned group, just like jews in germany, specially after 9/11), In germany, jews were seen as scum and the cause of Germany's World War 1 defeat.
expansion of law enforcement. Immediately after the Nazi's rise (through elections, although there's much speculation that these were tampered with), Polizei , Gestapo , Sicherheitsdienst and other offices of the SS sprung up all over Germany. Much like the DHS branches and new groups.
The overall anger at 9/11 and other anti-American and western ideal terrorist attacks, have created a NEED TO ESTABLISH such a system. Much like Germany's situation before WW2. People want protection. That's understood. But these two governments , have created so much international and domestic discord, that they cannot function without those "protection departments"
The POLICE STATE in Germany , was not overnight. It took years of development. It was not an overnight process, although in real terms, it was alot faster than the USA's approach towards becoming a police state.
The inclinations, and similarities are there. Is the USA ALREADY A POLICE STATE (as compared to Full Nazi Power era Germany)?
No, I would say it's definitely in the beginning stages of it.
USA's foreign and domestic policy(perhaps as far back as post WW2 policies) is the root cause of terrorism and attacks, internally or externally, or originating externally (9/11) against the United States of America.
Germany did the same. For years they had outward expansionism, and were met with internal (Germans against the Nazis) as well as external opposition (obvious , nations or peoples that did not want Nazi influence or occupation)
Sound familliar? That's because it is, The USA has been doing the exact same thing (although with a different approach). All to defend, expand, and protect the American Way. Much like Germany did.
The POLICE STATE in the USA has already started. And as long as the Judeo-Christian-Western Allies continue to impose their will on the people's of other countries, the USA will find itself in a constant state of protecting themselves from those who do not agree with it, be it internally, externally, of American descent or from foreign origin.
The article presented by Tempest is just one of thousands of examples from the last 13 years of so, of people losing some of their basic constitutionally protected rights.
From that perspective, the USA now , and Germany then , do have too many striking similarities.
Not ludicrous at all to compare them , In my opinion.
I'm not saying the USA's policies have been wrong. But , there's a reason why those groups , internal and external "HATE" the USA and act on it through sometimes violent means. And the reason is, they have a different viewpoint. And when people have different viewpoints to what their or another government's viewpoint is, they're not always discussed in a forum such as this.
this was meant as an edit to my other post , but it didn't let me:
The article presented by Tempest is just one of thousands of examples from the last 13 years of so, of people losing some of their basic constitutionally protected rights albeit momentarily and not in all cases permanently. The laws are really vague to the average american citizen, and most people do not have the time and resources to sue, fight , or question these violations in a court of law, meaning the Police usually win, hence to why it appearing to be very "Police State" like.
As a result , American citizens are experiencing this in the form of police brutality, and disregard for basic civil rights. Much like German citizens under Nazi Rule.
The Nazi party cannot be compared to the Dems, or GOP, the Nazi party is more like the entire congress and their leader, with a a paranoid public willing to lose some of their liberties in the name of security (much like what "normal" german citizens did under the Nazi Government)
My my my. I like you but that is utter bilge.
I like you as a person as well btw .Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
But, that's your prerogative and right to express what you did.
However, the Similarities, are there
Outward , supposedly "justified" acts of war against sovereign nations are there for both.
the erosion of civil liberties, and increase in police brutality and scare tactics are there for both.
implied, and expressed hatred and disregard for an entire group or groups are there for both.
the need to create a self protection department, apart from each nation's military, due to questionable and outright aggressive foreign policy are there for both.
If you don't see this. perhaps you need to live here in the good ol USA for years, to see the actual differences from 30 years ago to now.
Is the USA, putting Muslims in concentration camps. NO, hell no!
But it is a nuke in a major american city away from doing it.
And the police, yes. I live here, and they're definitely more brutal and unobservant of your rights since 9/11.
anything to add?
In the case of Germany, it’s easy to point to the single power that usurped political control: the NAZI Party and their fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There is no central power behind the so-called “police state” which you claim is the U.S. has becoming. By definition, in a police state there is a central power that maintains its political control principally through the utilization of the domestic police. Who’s doing this? Whose political power depends upon the police?
Unlike NAZI Germany, our foreign incursions (for good or ill) were carried out with loud support from the electorate. Despite the opposition of many Democrats, the Iran invasion was immensely popular with the electorate. Bush was re-elected. He didn’t use a domestic police force to stay in power for a second term.
Cantor lost his office because the primary voters thought he was too soft on immigrants. Obama too is taking heat for being too soft on immigrants. There no despot amassing police and guards at our southern border unless the electorate counts as a gang of despots.
That internal policies sometimes meet with resistance is no surprise in any country, whether it be a democratic-republic, a communist state or a fascist. That domestic policies meet resistance can hardly be called a parallel between the U.S. and NAZI Germany. That you list it as such tells me you’re argument is not very discriminating. Ditto foreign policies.
The Patriot Act, which I publicly protested, was defended vociferously and almost unanimously by Republicans when it was signed by Bush. But the power of the Republican party is not even close to becoming the monolithic iron fist that was the NAZI party. Moreover, I was not arrested for my protest. However much you dislike it, the Patriot Act is not the tool of a single party to maintain political control.
Yes there is a lot of prejudice in this country directed against Muslims. Yet it has not found a friendly reception within any branch of our government. President Bush was emphatic that we should refrain from blaming Muslims for 9-11, there have been no laws disenfranchising Muslims and religious freedom has been upheld by our courts. Attempts by enforcement agencies to profile Muslims have met opposition by the general populace and all branches of government. Not what would be expected in a police state.
You say our policies over the last 30-40 years are NO DIFFERENT from those of the NAZI era Germany. That’s simply ludicrous on the face of it! You say the the police state in Germany did not occur overnight, yet it did. It certainly didn’t take 30-40 years. The reason is that the police state in Germany was the result of a government take-over by a single monolithic party. That is an essential element of a police state. The power in a police state is wielded by an efficient centralized depot. Who or what, over the last 30-40 years, do you propose has been growing the roots and tentacles of power and is about to reveal themselves as our supreme leader? Who? Who are we supposed to rise against?
So where does this the-U.S.-is-a-police-state meme and the your-vote-doesn’t-count meme come from? It plays right into the ideology of the small-government and no-government conservatives, libertarians and gun nuts. You may or may not subscribe to these sophomoric political philosophies, but if you think the U.S. is a police state or that people shouldn’t bother voting ‘cause your vote doesn’t count, then your have been exposed to their viral memes and contracted the disease. Seek professional care.
We are the government. They are are two separate entities.
These "parallels" are about as specific as saying two people look alike because they both have faces. Here are some differences. Very soon after Hitler became Chancellor, domestic political enemies were murdered without process. All of the Jews in the country were by law, both de jure and de facto, prevented from marrying Germans, engaging in intercourse with them, or employing them in their homes. Five years after he became chancellor, there was kristallnacht, where synagogues were burned to the ground, about one hundred German citizens were murdered by SS disguised in plainclothes, and thousands sent to camps. Further, the victims of Kristallnacht were fined to pay for the property damage perpetrated by the SS.Quote:
Originally Posted by my my my!
Where is the murder of political opponents in the U.S? The systematic suppression of dissent by laws punishing strictly political speech? What groups are by law precluded from working or interacting with others or even displaying our national flag?
Addendum :)
We are the government. They are NOT two separate entities.
I never said they were replicas.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
If you want to bring up EVERYTHING the nazi's did, and find the USA equivalent. you're not going to find it.
I said they were very similar, and enough for a valid comparison and to be mentioned together.
The USA does have beginning signs of a police state. Is it going to happen the EXACT same ways it Happened in Germany? NO
You guys are suggesting Nazi Era Germany is THEE POLICE STATE that all future POLICE STATES must be measured against.
Nazi Germany is not Thee Police state to compare against. A Police state can be a gradual thing and even elected into power, with the people unwittingly accepting it. The United States is definitely heading that way. Police States have developed under different circumstances than in Nazi Germany. There is no central power in the USA. But the abuses, and underlying symptoms of a future police state are there. Who's ordering these cops to abuse their power, and disregard the law? A police state exists, because the people let it become, and subconsciously approve of it. Hitler was elected. Due to his speeches and ideology, actually appealing to Germans. People here in the USA , approve of brutal police tactics, racial profiling, discrimination , as long as it is for the "common good" .Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
NO,Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.
This is not necessarily have to be through the Police....
Exactly, as long as a majority wins , even if it is 51 to 49 out of 100 does not make it right. Who cares about the other 49 right? Hitler's popularity went up every year , up until the onset of world war 2. Bush lied to the United States , and His second term was based on a lie, the quagmire in Iraq. The public overwhelmingly showed support for him , by voting for him. Just like that German public loved Hitler even as he took over the Sudetenland.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I don't think you've seen the big giant fence, and numerous border patrol installations on the border. That's pretty police state-ish. Under the guise , of "preventing illegal immigration".. Yea, that' a pretty friendly way.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
No, I said there's similarities. If you want to go tit for tat. I will. What part of 'similar' don't you get? You have two governments, who pretty much do what they want, with the apparent support of the people, yet their victims and opppsition don't like it and react. This reaction is met with "Oh , we need a department for home defense" from both Germany and the USAQuote:
Originally Posted by trish
The patriot is just a major example, it's not the single tool. The overall tool, is subjugation and brainwashing through manipulation.. "We must allow our police to do whatever they want, or the criminals don't get caught" . But again, you keep insisting that the REps or Dems , one or the other , has to be like the Nazi party for ME to make the comparison. I still think you're not seeing the full picture of why the comparison is not "ludicrous" as you put it.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Again, I never said it was ALREADY a police state...Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
There is alot of , I would not say prejudice, But an unfounded "touch with a pole" mistrust of Muslims. People don't go around saying "I think all muslims are terrorists and up to no good" but there certainly is an undercurrent of it. It does start somewhere. The hatred of the Jews was first mentioned in the Beer Halls of Munich, only to become a serious issue about 15 years later when the Nuremberg laws were issued.
Met opposition. They still do it.
No. I said, that our policies WERE NOT MET with glee by those that were affected by them. did the USA , issue an order to exterminate all arabs in the USA? Of course not. Did the USA Invade sovereign countries against their wishes. yes. Was that met with open arms in said country? Not by everyone. Did said country's angry people plot terrorist actions against American Interests? Yes. Did the USA becoming an Ally with Israel, cause certain people to hate us? Yes. did those people act on it? Yes. There you have it. If you read my post properly, you would've noticed that I said a country whose actions are questionable internationally and internally, are met with resistance, both internally and abroad. It reaches such a dangerous level, that said country, needs to develop a "protection department" to deal with these threats, caused by their very own foreign policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
It's not a meme. Simpletons such as yourself choose to think people are overreacting and you conveniently give it the vomit inducing label of "meme".Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I didn't say "i think the U.S. is a police state". I said the similarities are there, and In my opinion it could very well become one, as the signs are already there. But, By your definition , it has to almost literally be like Nazi Germany in every way to be considered a "police state". Slowly becoming and "Is" are two very different things.
If anyone need professional care, it is you.
I've read you drivel on other threads, and you seem to think that if anyone disagrees with you , they are so blatantly wrong, they need to "seek professional care". And there's a circle jerk in this section of about 4 or 5 people that agree with you on every thing.
You are a condescending ignoramus at best. What you do excel at, is taking things out of context very consistently.
I make no qualms against robust debate - people are free to disagree with me and as I have pointed out I hope I am wrong - I just dont believe I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospero
As I have said, would it be any better if I said the prelude to the police state? I grow tired of comparisons to the examples of Nazi germany at its height or the utter extremes of what a police state can be.
Extreme police states get that way from a slow and subtle rise in power and control that offer a gradual but continual erosion of personal freedoms - Such as the data bank the NSA currently has on American citizens costing black budget millions if not billions just to maintain all the electronic records - but of course it "NEVER" looks at honest citizens just the really bad ones - you can always tell the bad ones true villains always wear black hats and have the curly mustaches...
George Orwell's 1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual - how close are we to it now??? camera's everywhere - cellphones being monitored, internet posts collected into massive data centers digital profiling and DARPA doing multi million dollar studies on manipulation of crowd dynamics through social media... all being done to American's - most of the free world thinks we have gone stone cold crazy but most our nation is content to stick our heads in the sand and believe that the government is just protecting us from the really bad guys and its all for our own good... exactly the way almost every police state that has ever existed rose to power...
Keep thinking that... Im sure it will get a huge laugh out of most politicians...Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I really, really want to believe in the dream... but Ive caught far too many glimpses of what happens when I open my eyes that I simply cant.
You said there was NO DIFFERENCE.Quote:
Originally Posted by my my my!
I'm suggesting that to be a police state there must be a central authority that controls the police and whose authority is maintained through the police.
You seem to be suggesting if the electorate grants law enforcement to obtain court orders to wiretap a phone, search a house, or confiscate Cliven Bundy's cattle then it's a police state. If law enforcement, not on orders from any other governmental agency, sometimes oversteps its authority, then its a police state. The difference is that, in the U.S., when enforcement makes an error in judgment the aggrieved as recourse through the law to set things right.
If you want to call us militaristic in our foreign policy, I might agree. If you want to say we have too many prisons and too many people in them, I agree. If you want to say that various enforcement agencies have made some very bad judgment calls, have profiled, beaten people and shot innocent people, I'd say yes. But none of that makes us a police state. It makes us a state with too many prisons and too many ill-trained police. That's to be expected when we live in a country where every politician promises to put even more police on the street corners. Why do they promise that? Because is gets them elected. And that's the main reason why we're not a police state: the only politicians that can take office are the ones that can garner the vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by my my my!
My My My <---- seems to have the gist of it...
Good. Then it's settled: we do not have a police state.Quote:
A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population.
The point is we arnt there yet - but things are continuing to slip - judicial review is being eroded - there is a growing number of cases where judges have lashed out at the actions of the FBI, NSA and Police only to be completely ignored. I gave you an example about the no fly rule which was virtually impossible to actually appeal - a judge ruled it unconstitutional in its current form the TSA and NSA has taken that under consideration but the policy stays in place... WTF seriously WTF?Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
History lesson - yeah to attain that kind of power over a country it can be very a slow process - power is seized slowly - going too fast results in civil war but take a little freedom away at a time and it gets hard to notice...
Our data continues to be gathered up in massive sweeps of any form of digital communications despite public outcry and even a rare bipartisan condemning by congress - they simply re worded the definition of their practices... hell even data overseas isnt safe as long as the company does business in the US it can be demanded by the US because we say the digital is different than paper... really? in today's world ?
Police cant search your phone - well unless its turned on and logged in but by the way if you get on a flight you might be asked to do just that...
NDAA has authorized indefinite detention if you have suspected ties to anything overseas or terror related - S U S P E C T E D !!!! not proven just suspected - no trial, no judge, no appeal, nothing...
No this isnt as bad as the scenario's you describe in NK and Nazi Germany but if too many of us stay silent Im worried we wont be able to prevent sliding closer and closer...
Sticking our heads in the sand wont solve anything...
Know where you are - and where you have been - if you want to see where you are going to.
this is what i said:Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Nazi era Germany (and the USA since 2001) knew full well, that their foreign and internal policies, were being met with resistance, and sometimes violence.
This is NO DIFFERENT , to the USA's policies of about the last 30-40 years. Done under the guise of protecting American Interests.
There is a difference to the actual policies...
There is no difference, in the knowing they would piss people off, just to protect their own interests. Still going ahead with it. creating enemies as a result. resulting in THE NEED FOR A PROTECTION DEPARTMENT , to deal with the internal issues caused by the incursions into other countries.
That's the similarity.
I'm not saying "The USA is exactly like the police state of Nazi Germany" , I'm saying they have many things in common.
After all, the necessity for a "protection department" is a big sign along with other similarities, that your government has downright awful internal and foreign policy issues that it needs such a department. The other ones that have seen the necessity of such a "department" are other police states as well. You as a country know you've messed up quite a bit, when your own people are enough of a danger to necessitate such a department.
you want the USA to slaughter Muslims as approved policy, for you to finally consider it a police state, or as sign that it is becoming one? By all means. think like that if you want.
Ever hear of the Occupy movement ? Ever hear what happens to protesters protesting big corporations or banks... how their free speech is suppressed or how completely over the top the paramilitary police response is... hell half the time these days the police response out numbers the protesters - why the fuck would that be? - oh yeah I forgot - "Fear and Intimidation"Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
Apparently its ok to camp out for a playstation or superbowl tickets but not if you want to protest bankers. And dont give me any bullshit about it was for public health and safety because of weather conditions... ever see shoppers camped out at walmart before black Friday before Xmas?
Food for thought?
Here is a photo of the police response to the McDonalds protest for higher wages -- a bunch of minimum wage fry cooks and high school kids gets met by a massive police force that looks like its battle ready for any war. And all they wanted to do was protest that their wages were so low that it wasnt even possible to live on them.
Go ahead tell me thats not over the top - tell me that wasnt done specifically to intimidate - tell me that it was necessary - go on tell me...
Exactly Tempest.Quote:
Originally Posted by TempestTS
They're going overboard, they've been going overboard. They will continue to go overboard, And it will take some of the people on this board, a baton to the face during a routing traffic stop or getting tackled to the ground and hit with a closed fist for jaywalking, to realize the police and other law enforcement are indeed practicing tactics generally associated with "Police States"
The fact they're dressed in full riot gear and assuming the worst from people, treating everyone as potential rioter, or thug. They believe everyone is a potential criminal, instead of thinking , "we shall protect the good citizens from the criminals". Innocent until proven guilty, is but a relic of the past. Now you have to go out of your way to prove your innocence. the Burden is on you , to make the "people" aka the District Attorney see the error in their ways.
Our government approves of this. As they do very little to punish these "peace officers". That in itself is "police state"-ish. When the government , short of encouraging this behavior, allows it to happen.
Add that to the dismal USA foreign policy of creating more problems than they solve. In the meantime , creating more populations that have a real anger towards the USA.
I agree with you 100% Tempest.
So who’s garnering all this power over the country? How long can they take? This has been going on 30-40-50 years, right? So they must be getting pretty old by now. Who is it? The head of the NSA? The director is appointed by Secretary of Defense and approved by the President. The turnover is too frequent, so it can't be the director. The Secretary of Defense and the President turnover too frequently as well...can’t be them. Perhaps it's the agency itself. It has some sort of personality of its own...an artificial intelligence. Yeah, that’s the ticket.Quote:
to attain that kind of power over a country it can be very a slow process - power is seized slowly - going too fast results in civil war but take a little freedom away at a time and it gets hard to notice...
Yes, I was a participant.Quote:
Ever hear of the Occupy movement ?
This was of course an over reaction of the local police. They weren’t ordered by the NSA, or Homeland Security. So who is it then, making the move to gain absolute political power and turn us into a true police state? The Governor of California maybe? A Wall-Street Cabal.Quote:
Ever hear what happens to protesters protesting big corporations or banks... how their free speech is suppressed or how completely over the top the paramilitary police response is... hell half the time these days the police response out numbers the protesters - why the fuck would that be?
Tempest wants us to force the two houses, the president and the supreme court of the U.S. government to resign (as in Iceland) because police in Berkeley over react to an Occupy protest. That just doesn't make sense.
If police states “exercise rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population” then who’s doing the exercising here. To have a police state you have to have someone or something exercising the police.
A Wall Street Cabal ?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Why yes - havent you heard what Ive been saying
Who is gathering power - banks and corporations - warned about by Thomas Jefferson and just as strongly by Eisenhower...
Protests of banks and corporations are being met by massive police forces - who is calling the shots here and why are they responding en-mass ? If its our elected officials then why are they protecting the corporations more than the people?
you "were" a member of the Occupy movement - I still am
Why did you stop? Occupy has barely scratched the surface there is much more to be done... did the cops scare you away or was it because even a large group of people made hardly difference at all against the control of the mega corporations and massive banks?
Do you think it was only in Berkley the cops over reacted ? You realize I can give examples all day long... Lets not bring it to that - accept that its much more wide spread than an isolated incident - if you were in Occupy you know that to be completely true
Do I want to ask the government to step down - NO - I want it to represent the people and I feel that it has failed to do so for quite some time -
Here are the choices for those who govern
Do your job - represent the people for the good of the people - but them before all else
If you cant do your job step down and let someone worthy of leading do the job
If you wont drop out you will eventually be forced out
This is history - the world over - and yes its simple
Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.
Not what I said - not at all - now Im not sure I believe you were part of the occupy movement as you said you were.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Do I need to go over how powerful banks and corporations are and how strongly they influence elections yet again...
Have you so lost this debate that are left to misdirection and mockery to make your point?
and DO you really remember Occupy ?
six-month anniversary of the start of Occupy Wall Street…When the police moved in to the park that night, in formation and with batons, to arrest a massive number of nonviolent protesters, the chaos was terrifying.
https://31.media.tumblr.com/3ce140e8...ZXN1s27oyr.jpg
I'm sorry but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read in this section. Because our country has a department dedicated to internal security, that makes it a police state? Only Nazi Germany and other police states have agencies or departments focused on domestic based threats? If you are going to choose a parallel, why not choose something that only the country you are making the comparison to has?Quote:
Originally Posted by my my my!
I am sure that just about every Western country and many Eastern ones have similar departments to deal with domestic terror threats. Would you like me to compile a list of agencies that handle terrorist threats in other countries? Edit: Wikipedia has already done it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter..._organizations
What's next, you're going to tell us that Nazi Germany also had an equivalent of the department of transportation and since we do to we're a police state?
Trish is also not saying that the United States must "slaughter muslims as approved policy" for our foreign policy to trouble her but if you are going to compare the United States to a country whose hallmark was liquidating its own citizens based on racial characteristics, then you should find actual points of comparison. The parallels should be a little tighter than "well they were aggressive and knew other countries might not like that aggressiveness..." This is not a basis for an analogy but a vague and unclear standard.
Finally, of course police aggression against protesters is wrong. The question is whether the directions have come from the top down. Are the protesters being dispersed because the government is trying to prevent their message from being spread or is it a regulation of the time, place, and manner of speech? Back in the 60's police officers used to use violence against protesters based on their message. If we are on a road to police statehood shouldn't the force used be getting worse?
BTW, the wiki list includes agencies aimed at both international and domestic safety.
I think the point that was being made was that our the department we have to deal with domestic and overseas threats has grown overtly large and is viewed by most of the European countries you cite as having similar agencies that ours is growing out of control...Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
Police response force getting stronger - Holy FUCK!!! have you seen how they are armed these days??? - the armored troop carriers - the massive battle armor and armaments ? how can you possibly say its the same
He said that only a country that is a police state necessitates an agency like the department of homeland security. You know before the department of homeland security was created, the FBI handled all domestic terror threats. It only made sense to separate those functions after a major attack on our homeland.Quote:
Originally Posted by TempestTS
I am saying I don't think the actual violence police officers use in putting down what they view as disturbances has gotten worse. They may be more heavily armed to ward off threats, but vietnam war protests were often very violent, as were labor disputes, which frequently led to deaths in the early 20th century.