Male student gang raped by muslim youth

And yet you keep mentioning the genocide... every time... when no one else is. What relevance does this have in any way. And as for your references to stopping the "anti social behaviour" I don't see how deepening a smear here, derived from racist websites, about the disgusting behaviour of a couple of young men who may, coincidentally, be Muslim in any way helps anyone - except for affirming stupid prejudices. This is NOT a trait of the Muslim community. It's a trait of aggressive men - of any ethnicity. So stop your smears and you stupid posturing. Admit it. You are a bigot with ignorant prejudices.

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Originally Posted by greyman

Great Britain/UK has a lot to answer for in the Middle East.

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As does the US, France, Italy, Russia ......

It's strange that someone who has accused an entire religious group of being predisposed to criminal behavior is offended by a few curse words. I also find it peculiar that he goes out of his way to mention how he will not mention the Armenian Genocide and thinks that this literalism will fool those of us here with common sense. You invoked the Armenian Genocide to stigmatize a country and did this probably for the effect it would have on a single Turkish poster.

As Prospero said, people of every background commit rape. You did not establish this rape was committed by Muslims based on ideology or upbringing nor did you establish Muslims are more likely to rape. You provided some links from dubious sources indicating the attackers may have been Muslim. Your conclusions are a symptom of inductive reasoning gone awry. You construct a general proposition from specific examples but make no attempt to establish actual figures or distinguish correlation from causation, things that actual statisticians would do given a body of data. You ignore that evidence which cuts in the opposite direction, emphasize that which supports your conclusions, and fail to even be explicit about your hypothesis. But then again, we expect too much from a racist when we ask for more than sentence fragments and a well-thought out argument.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

It's strange that someone who has accused an entire religious group of being predisposed to criminal behavior is offended by a few curse words. I also find it peculiar that he goes out of his way to mention how he will not mention the Armenian Genocide and thinks that this literalism will fool those of us here with common sense. You invoked the Armenian Genocide to stigmatize a country and did this probably for the effect it would have on a single Turkish poster.

As Prospero said, people of every background commit rape. You did not establish this rape was committed by Muslims based on ideology or upbringing nor did you establish Muslims are more likely to rape. You provided some links from dubious sources indicating the attackers may have been Muslim. Your conclusions are a symptom of inductive reasoning gone awry. You construct a general proposition from specific examples but make no attempt to establish actual figures or distinguish correlation from causation, things that actual statisticians would do given a body of data. You ignore that evidence which cuts in the opposite direction, emphasize that which supports your conclusions, and fail to even be explicit about your hypothesis. But then again, we expect too much from a racist when we ask for more than sentence fragments and a well-thought out argument.

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What was so dubious about my sources?

Your sources are the equivalent of quoting from Der Sturmer in the 1930s on the sins of the jews

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Originally Posted by Prospero

And yet you keep mentioning the genocide... every time... when no one else is. What relevance does this have in any way. And as for your references to stopping the "anti social behaviour" I don't see how deepening a smear here, derived from racist websites, about the disgusting behaviour of a couple of young men who may, coincidentally, be Muslim in any way helps anyone - except for affirming stupid prejudices. This is NOT a trait of the Muslim community. It's a trait of aggressive men - of any ethnicity. So stop your smears and you stupid posturing. Admit it. You are a bigot with ignorant prejudices.

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Actually I am not constantly referring.to that event. I mentioned.it originally in one post to see who actually reads and who is merely a p.c. reactionary. What I have done is caught a few reactionaries flying off at the keyboard without reading. It is good to expose them now. Even then, we can all write frankly and listen to.those we disagree with. Now that I know the motives of everyone here I'll say that I do not think this deep seeded ned to dominate the "other" is unique to Muslims, it is a universal phenomenon in human history. Trying to deny the existence of such a phenomenon and keeping it out of the English language media is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Your sources are the equivalent of quoting from Der Sturmer in the 1930s on the sins of the jews

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Which sources are equivalent to Der Sturmer? I would like you to paste the link.

the white supremacist blogs....

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Originally Posted by Prospero

the white supremacist blogs....

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Link them. You asked me for specifics. Which White Supremacist blogs?

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

You are being a reactionary if you think I am vilifying them. Muslims in Europe are the key to stopping this anti-social behavior. How did.the U.S. Stop Klan.terrorism? Infiltration.and prosecution but also exposing and shaming. This tactic is essential to true mainstream social change. You think you are helping them but you are actually just enabling Muslim supremacists within their community.

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Apologies to Prospero for reviving a deservedly dying thread, but by your logic, you would have to conclude that Christians in Europe are key to stopping white supremacist terrorists like Anders Breivik. To the best of my knowledge, no Muslims in Europe have gunned down 77 people, so clearly European chauvanistic violence is exclusively a problem for white Christians to solve.

More to the point, however, if I were to tell you that I, a non-Christian, was gangraped at 11 on a Boy Scout campout by 5 older boys who came from Mormon families, would you then conclude that Christianity is a brutal and primitive religion and that its adherents are motivated by a need to dominate "the other"?

The fundamental error that you are committing is to assume that any given culture or subculture has a monopoly on chaunvanism and violence. The offenders in the Belgian story may or may not be Muslim, but they are, quite obvioulsy, not the first teenagers to brutalize another child. Given that unassailable fact, your obsession with the role of Islam in this story reveals you as just another bigot.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

What I have done is caught a few reactionaries flying off at the keyboard without reading.

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Just a small point. You were not catching people who did not read. We were aware of the fact that you said you were not mentioning it, but that by doing so you were mentioning it. It was gratuitous, mean-spirited, and irrelevant to the conversation.

I'm not going to mention your mother's alleged whoring.(let's see who actually reads and who's just a reactionary blowhard with a whore for a mother that we're not going to mention).

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Originally Posted by thombergeron

Apologies to Prospero for reviving a deservedly dying thread, but by your logic, you would have to conclude that Christians in Europe are key to stopping white supremacist terrorists like Anders Breivik. To the best of my knowledge, no Muslims in Europe have gunned down 77 people, so clearly European chauvanistic violence is exclusively a problem for white Christians to solve.

More to the point, however, if I were to tell you that I, a non-Christian, was gangraped at 11 on a Boy Scout campout by 5 older boys who came from Mormon families, would you then conclude that Christianity is a brutal and primitive religion and that its adherents are motivated by a need to dominate "the other"?

The fundamental error that you are committing is to assume that any given culture or subculture has a monopoly on chaunvanism and violence. The offenders in the Belgian story may or may not be Muslim, but they are, quite obvioulsy, not the first teenagers to brutalize another child. Given that unassailable fact, your obsession with the role of Islam in this story reveals you as just another bigot.

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I thought your post was well-put. I did not want to bump it off the main page by posting my little barb.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

I thought your post was well-put. I did not want to bump it off the main page by posting my little barb.

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Well put except being wrong again. I said gangrape as an intimidation tactic is a universal phenomenon. Muslims are not unique in that regard. What is unique is a majority, indigenous population terrified to address it. Feminists from the Muslim population and child services personnel from the non-Muslim population are not shy to discuss it.

Tragicomedy - I admit that I made a small error in saying you posted links to white supremacist links. But you clearly rely on these source for your information. Your position has slithered from an crude and blanket attack on the Muslim populations of Europe (I quote: "Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest." "Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people." )
to a sort of back pedalling attempt to put your racism into a context of hating force. The only legitimate news sources you have offered were Flemish news reports which attribute the attack to immigrants - never once mentioning Muslims. As i pointed out i an earlier post the only sources on the web I an find which define this as an attack by Muslims were on right wing sites. Now again please offer some serious evidence of your wide attack on the sexual criminality you lay at the door of Muslims?

And regarding the genocide as others have pointed out YOU were the only person to raise it by saying you were not going to raise it. A grubby smear tactic against the Turkish person who posted.

Please also explain what you mean in labelling those who disagree with you as reactionary?

And finally please explain the correlation you see between the tenets of Muslim religious belief and sexual criminality?

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Tragicomedy - I admit that I made a small error in saying you posted links to white supremacist links. But you clearly rely on these source for your information. Your position has slithered from an crude and blanket attack on the Muslim populations of Europe (I quote: "Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest." "Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people." )
to a sort of back pedalling attempt to put your racism into a context of hating force. The only legitimate news sources you have offered were Flemish news reports which attribute the attack to immigrants - never once mentioning Muslims. As i pointed out i an earlier post the only sources on the web I an find which define this as an attack by Muslims were on right wing sites. Now again please offer some serious evidence of your wide attack on the sexual criminality you lay at the door of Muslims?

And regarding the genocide as others have pointed out YOU were the only person to raise it by saying you were not going to raise it. A grubby smear tactic against the Turkish person who posted.

Please also explain what you mean in labelling those who disagree with you as reactionary?

And finally please explain the correlation you see between the tenets of Muslim religious belief and sexual criminality?

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You made a HUGE error which enabled others to slander me. How can you then try to riff on my argument when you made such a blunder? Yes you and the others are reactionaries as you went directly into attack mode when you heard any deviation from political correctness. Ironically, Belgian sources haven't been shy in tackling the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in their.own.country the way English language media has been. This from the very people wanting to delete threads-that they haven't even taken time to.read. Prospero, you get credit for t least asking for sources and.for later apologizing but that only makes you the best of the reactionaries. I apologize for not answering the rest of your post but I am at work.and.simply.don't have the time to give you a worthy reply.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

You made a HUGE error which enabled others to slander me. How can you then try to riff on my argument when you made such a blunder? Yes you and the others are reactionaries as you went directly into attack mode when you heard any deviation from political correctness. Ironically, Belgian sources haven't been shy in tackling the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in their.own.country the way English language media has been. This from the very people wanting to delete threads-that they haven't even taken time to.read. Prospero, you get credit for t least asking for sources and.for later apologizing but that only makes you the best of the reactionaries. I apologize for not answering the rest of your post but I am at work.and.simply.don't have the time to give you a worthy reply.

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It is not about political correctness, but facts. Thousands of people are arrested every day but are never charged, and some of those who are and are tried in court and are found guilty and sent to prison are innocent -you have no idea who committed the rape which started this thread, just as you have no idea if the people arrested are guilty -to judge people accused of a crime before they have even entered a court room is feeble, and has nothing to with pc but everything to do with justice. You did provide a link to a website that claimed the rapists were Muslims, even though it is not world famous for its objectivity, as most blogs are shaped more by opinions than fact. The same website provided video evidence of the 'initiation' ceremonies that students sometimes 'have to' endure, but you haven't spent much time asking why this kind of thing even exists in the 21st century whether it is among Belgian students or the 'hazing' of raw recruits in the US Armed Forces, or some club of toffs in Oxbridge or an elite college in Australia. Nobody needs to eat somebody else's shit to prove they are a man.
As for making a fuss about it, why? In the UK, for example, we have something called the rule of law, and it is there precisely in order to prevent a lynch-mob rushing out into the street and punishing a felon, real or imagined. I don't know of a single person who approves or condones rape of any kind, most of the people I know think the law is there to take over in such situations and we just hope -as in every crime- that the police do their work properly and arrest the right person(s) and that a fair trial concludes the process of judgement.

It seems to me you have a diifferent agenda, and that it has little to do with the law, and a lot to do with prejudice.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

It is not about political correctness, but facts. Thousands of people are arrested every day but are never charged, and some of those who are and are tried in court and are found guilty and sent to prison are innocent -you have no idea who committed the rape which started this thread, just as you have no idea if the people arrested are guilty -to judge people accused of a crime before they have even entered a court room is feeble, and has nothing to with pc but everything to do with justice. You did provide a link to a website that claimed the rapists were Muslims, even though it is not world famous for its objectivity, as most blogs are shaped more by opinions than fact. The same website provided video evidence of the 'initiation' ceremonies that students sometimes 'have to' endure, but you haven't spent much time asking why this kind of thing even exists in the 21st century whether it is among Belgian students or the 'hazing' of raw recruits in the US Armed Forces, or some club of toffs in Oxbridge or an elite college in Australia. Nobody needs to eat somebody else's shit to prove they are a man.
As for making a fuss about it, why? In the UK, for example, we have something called the rule of law, and it is there precisely in order to prevent a lynch-mob rushing out into the street and punishing a felon, real or imagined. I don't know of a single person who approves or condones rape of any kind, most of the people I know think the law is there to take over in such situations and we just hope -as in every crime- that the police do their work properly and arrest the right person(s) and that a fair trial concludes the process of judgement.

It seems to me you have a diifferent agenda, and that it has little to do with the law, and a lot to do with prejudice.

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I was hoping you would bring up the UK as it has been perhaps the biggest failure in.combatting antisocial behavior Muslim or non-Muslim and at the same time the greatest source of p.c. Zealotry in all the Western world. Oh ye Guardianistas shall reap bitter tears. Later.

Political correctness is a relative notion. Among the white supremacist, for example, it is politically correct to cry "reverse discrimination" whenever a woman wins equal pay for equal work, or whenever a black man becomes head of the Harvard Law Review, or cry "political correctness" whenever someone defends the construction of a Mosque or takes up the cause of a discriminated minority. Zealotry, like rape, knows no bounds.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

I was hoping you would bring up the UK as it has been perhaps the biggest failure in.combatting antisocial behavior Muslim or non-Muslim and at the same time the greatest source of p.c. Zealotry in all the Western world. Oh ye Guardianistas shall reap bitter tears. Later.

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For what its worth every day I read The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, and the Financial Times. I am no more a Guardianista than I am a fashionista even if I can tell the difference between a Louis Vuitton and a Burberry handbag without having to go on the internet. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour on the streets of our towns and cities, most of it caused by an excess of alcohol consumption rather than by religion; indeed, it may be caused by an absence of religion. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about; but I have a sinking feeling you are going to correct me.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

Ironically, Belgian sources haven't been shy in tackling the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in their.own.country the way English language media has been.

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None of the Belgian sources that you linked to in your earlier comment mention Islam in any way. It seems that you're the only one doing that. Could you offer some Belgian sources that tackle the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in Belgium to support your comment above?

You've backtracked and gone off on tangents a number of times, and you use written English poorly, so it's difficult to tell precisely what's got your panties in a bunch. But as best I can tell, you seem to have this general sense that Muslims living in European countries are using various forms of interpersonal violence to "dominate" non-Muslims in those countries, and that something called "political correctness" prevents this topic from being discussed openly.

If this is indeed your contention, you need to begin with some actual evidence. Thus far, you have a single, unresolved incident in a single country. Given your certainty, you must have some data in front of you on the rate of Muslim on non-Muslim violence on the European continent. Perhaps you could share that data.

I don't get to Europe much anymore, I'm afraid, so I would necessarily defer to whatever evidence you might have regarding the European context. However, my work often brings me to Indonesia. Since you are an expert on Islam, you are certainly aware that Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country on Earth. Interestingly, the violent crime rate in Indonesia is quite low. Sexual assault is virtually unheard of, somewhere on the order of 0.7 per 100,000. By some estimates, the rate of sexual assault in the U.S. is about 32 times higher. Similarly, the rate of aggravated assault is about 89 times higher in the U.S. as compared to Indonesia.

Apropos of the reason everybody's here, Indonesia has a long tradition of cross-dressing and transgenderism, and transgender people are well integrated into Indonesia society and culture. Based upon the Indonesian context, one could easily conclude that Muslim cultures are far more tolerant of transgenderism than Christian cultures.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

For what its worth every day I read The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, and the Financial Times. I am no more a Guardianista than I am a fashionista even if I can tell the difference between a Louis Vuitton and a Burberry handbag without having to go on the internet. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour on the streets of our towns and cities, most of it caused by an excess of alcohol consumption rather than by religion; indeed, it may be caused by an absence of religion. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about; but I have a sinking feeling you are going to correct me.

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And most Muslims, of course, don't drink.

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

And most Muslims, of course, don't drink.

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This is not correct in real life.

Technically rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Islam - If a woman is one 'whom your right hand possesses' (sex slaves/captives).

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

That verse was crystal right? lol

God, religion is disgusting...

But yeah, those particular rapists may or may not be Muslim and their crime has yet to be proved in court.

(I like the guardian)

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Originally Posted by loveboof

Technically rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Islam - If a woman is one 'whom your right hand possesses' (sex slaves/captives).

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Technically, rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Christianity, too. Spoils of war, among others.

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When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

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Nitpicking stone-age cults is always dicey. Best bet is simply to reject them all based on overall silliness and irrelevance.

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Originally Posted by thombergeron

Technically, rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Christianity, too. Spoils of war, among others.

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I don't know why people raise issues with Christianity in response to a specific comment about Islam (or any other religion). This happened before when I said something or other. Is it relevant? Why point out that Christianity is ridiculous too? Do you believe I am a Christian who is simply being hypocritical?

To be honest, it does kinda feel like some PC uncomfortableness with any criticism of Islam.

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Originally Posted by thombergeron

Nitpicking stone-age cults is always dicey. Best bet is simply to reject them all based on overall silliness and irrelevance.

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As soon as we can all agree on that the better imo... :)

It's called Islamophobia right?

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Originally Posted by trish

Political correctness is a relative notion. Among the white supremacist, for example, it is politically correct to cry "reverse discrimination" whenever a woman wins equal pay for equal work, or whenever a black man becomes head of the Harvard Law Review, or cry "political correctness" whenever someone defends the construction of a Mosque or takes up the cause of a discriminated minority. Zealotry, like rape, knows no bounds.

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All true.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

For what its worth every day I read The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, and the Financial Times. I am no more a Guardianista than I am a fashionista even if I can tell the difference between a Louis Vuitton and a Burberry handbag without having to go on the internet. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour on the streets of our towns and cities, most of it caused by an excess of alcohol consumption rather than by religion; indeed, it may be caused by an absence of religion. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about; but I have a sinking feeling you are going to correct me.

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I'm not going to do that now that you've changed your tone. I think we tore the pretense off of the p.c. reactionaries with my last post to Prospero.

True, most antisocial behaviour IS caused by binge consumption of alchohol and drugs, espcially in Britain. But let's not use that to cover up the very real phenomenon of gangrape-as-dominance used by Muslims in France (called Tournante there) as well as the case after case in Britain of Pakistani Muslim gangs trafficking and raping non-Muslim girls. This was a huge case when it became clear that the British MSM was practicing self-censorship on this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dans_l%...des_tournantes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12142177

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...n-2146251.html

http://www.derbyscb.org.uk/docs/BD09...iveSummary.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-16325953
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...d-1803647.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Blackpool.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3602854.stm
Documentary throws a bad light at Muslim community in UK - YouTube
Notice the Timeline leading back to this documentary being taken off the air versus the long list of other incidents leading up to Jack Straw's comments and beyond a couple years. I don't want to spam you with links so I'll leave it at that.

That is just Britain and France. We see this all over Europe and in Australia.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/se...rape-s06.shtml
Sydney gang rapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s607757.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...185124700.html

Ashfield gang rapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I haven't heard of it in U.S. or Canada.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-16325953

This story discusses an investigation where the evidence was not of a high enough quality to convict. There are other links to this story indicating that the men with the Arabic names were acquitted because the officers asking them questions asked leading questions making the interpretation of their answers suspect. This does not support your argument that Muslim rape gangs are so numerous as to be an epidemic of some kind. I'm also not going to read every link you post when you've already posted several that don't say what you claim they do. If you had anything to say you would not have to deluge us with many links that don't say anything.

I see the link to the documentary of those who groom sex slaves. Sex slavery is common in many parts of the world where there are high rates of poverty. Many of these areas are not Muslim majority. I've seen many white supremacist sites claim that "white slavery" is a Jewish controlled trade. I bring this up because it is very much in line with the type of hysteria you're peddling. They also claim that African-American men rape white women at a higher rate.

What these tales have in common is that they are attempts to convince the average man that some group of aliens is raping their women or facilitating their rape. The real explanation? These individuals are not concerned about rape but view their women as proprietary and therefore their rape by an alien is more dangerous than their rape by someone of similar heritage. You would have an argument if rape were predominantly a Muslim problem or if it were relatively rare outside of their communities. However, it is all too common and in many communities. The story you tell has been told a thousand times about every swarthy group to ever set foot in a new country.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

True, most antisocial behaviour IS caused by binge consumption of alchohol and drugs, espcially in Britain. But let's not use that to cover up the very real phenomenon of gangrape-as-dominance used by Muslims in France (called Tournante there) as well as the case after case in Britain of Pakistani Muslim gangs trafficking and raping non-Muslim girls. This was a huge case when it became clear that the British MSM was practicing self-censorship on this issue.

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Firstly, the men in Rochdale were not Pakistani but British; secondly your phrase 'case after case' implies that this phenomenon of grooming and rape by 'Muslim gangs' is common, which is simply not the case.

Sociologically, there are more gangs in the UK because there are more people, and more people living in relatively deprived urban areas with high unemployment where the shadow economy offers alternatives sources of income through the usual routes, of which drug peddling is the most obvious. Gangs come in all shapes and sizes, but you are pushing the 'Muslim Gangs' for your own personal agenda just as in this country it is pushed by those people for whom immigration is the 'biggest issue' along with membership of the EU and for whom 'the identity of Britain' is at stake. They show no interest in anything other than this narrow focus on bad behaviour, and the aim is not to confront the problem of grooming and rape across the UK, but only those cases which involve your chosen people.

Decades ago this campaigning targeted West Indians, ie Black men who were corrupting our sweet English virgins, grooming them with flattery, dope and then raping them and sending them out onto the streets as their whores. From 1900 into the 1930s, it was the Jews -mostly from the Russian Empire- who were running riot in London's east end, into everything from fixing boxing matches to drug peddling, bribery, prostitution and so on -name your crime, the Jews were responsible; just as in Germany at the same time the Jews were responsible for the dilution of the purity of the Aryan Race, the defeat in the First World War, inflation, etc etc etc etc.

A few decades before, roughly between 1885 and 1900, the Italian immigrants famous for selling ice cream in the parks were dirty, disease-bearing criminals whose primary location around Holborn was 'notorious' and got so bad there was an article in The Lancet suggesting the Italians were a threat to the nation's health -it got so bad the Medical Officer for the London Country Council visited the area, but then wrote a report in which it was revealed that the Italians were indeed living in cramped tenements, but that their homes were the cleanest, that they had the highest standards of hygiene and were rarely ill, and most of the crime statistics related to men arguing with each other over cards -the arrest rate of Italians was higher than other ethnic groups so the statistics looked bad, sound familiar? At its core, the owners of the property in Holborn refused to renovate the homes which declined into a slum as a result -they wanted to get all the tenants out -Italians, English, Irish for the most part- and re-build more expensive property in a climate of growth in demand for upscale housing in central London. It was the owners of property who were responsible for the poor conditions in which people lived, the Italians did the best they could to maintain their standards, which were higher than the rest.

Jews, Italians, West Indians, Muslims, Albanians, Russians, Martians, choose your people, find real evidence of their crimes, and then condemn everyone who is a Jew, Italian, West Indian, a Muslim, Albanian, or Russian.

It is a tired, old agenda, it is transparent loathing based on selective evidence.

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Originally Posted by jake9jake9

It's called Islamophobia right?

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In regard to my comments, it's called a fact. Telling me 'Christianity is fucked up too' is not a defense of Islam. This is especially true when my main beef is with religion full stop.

I have a lot of muslim friends and we have talked about their wacky beliefs many times! We get on well because we respect each other.

I was contributing to this topic with an interesting quotation from the Koran. Does that warrant mindless, panicky, limp accusations of racism/bigotry? Get real.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

Well put except being wrong again. I said gangrape as an intimidation tactic is a universal phenomenon. Muslims are not unique in that regard. What is unique is a majority, indigenous population terrified to address it. Feminists from the Muslim population and child services personnel from the non-Muslim population are not shy to discuss it.

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Lets say that you are right: That is, that the majority do not speak up. I assume you mean in Muslim communities. In that case, then having more dialog between communities, is something that could help bring change. In other words, the solutions involve the exchange of ideas. My main point is, that this brings greater change, than drone pilot attacks. Killing people with drone attacks is also an intimidation tactic. I personally question, how good that is in changing ideas. And speaking of ideas, if you or anyone, thinks that 'negative' behavior by Muslims is the result of words in the Koran, I could easily find words that condemn that same behavior in the Koran. I intuitively know that rape is condemned in such books. So then, those words in the Koran, or other related books, are most effective weapons to promote positive behaviors in those communities. And this then makes burning the Koran, the exactly wrong thing to do, in making a better world.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-16325953

This story discusses an investigation where the evidence was not of a high enough quality to convict. There are other links to this story indicating that the men with the Arabic names were acquitted because the officers asking them questions asked leading questions making the interpretation of their answers suspect. This does not support your argument that Muslim rape gangs are so numerous as to be an epidemic of some kind. I'm also not going to read every link you post when you've already posted several that don't say what you claim they do. If you had anything to say you would not have to deluge us with many links that don't say anything.

I see the link to the documentary of those who groom sex slaves. Sex slavery is common in many parts of the world where there are high rates of poverty. Many of these areas are not Muslim majority. I've seen many white supremacist sites claim that "white slavery" is a Jewish controlled trade. I bring this up because it is very much in line with the type of hysteria you're peddling. They also claim that African-American men rape white women at a higher rate.

What these tales have in common is that they are attempts to convince the average man that some group of aliens is raping their women or facilitating their rape. The real explanation? These individuals are not concerned about rape but view their women as proprietary and therefore their rape by an alien is more dangerous than their rape by someone of similar heritage. You would have an argument if rape were predominantly a Muslim problem or if it were relatively rare outside of their communities. However, it is all too common and in many communities. The story you tell has been told a thousand times about every swarthy group to ever set foot in a new country.

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So you are dismissing real crimes which have gone to trial.and won.multiple.convictions as tales? You are a propagandist, not me.

tragicomedy - I have no idea what sort of life you live or where you derive the main sources of your information. Wht is wholly clear from your original posts in this thread is that you regard islam and its followers as a threat to "western civilisation" - and Muslim men as inherently likely to rape. You've tried to play down this aspect with clouds of rhetoric and attacks on those who reasonably discern your basic attitudes as "reactionaries" (whatever you - Mr Humpty Dumpty - intend that word to mean in your curious private language) . None of your ignorant postings have proved anything apart from your own ill-informed prejudices. As i said before please show some respectable evidential material on how Muslim men, because of their faith, are more prone to rape women than other groups. I know you cannot. Those early posts stand as clear evidence of your position.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

tragicomedy - I have no idea what sort of life you live or where you derive the main sources of your information. Wht is wholly clear from your original posts in this thread is that you regard islam and its followers as a threat to "western civilisation" - and Muslim men as inherently likely to rape. You've tried to play down this aspect with clouds of rhetoric and attacks on those who reasonably discern your basic attitudes as "reactionaries" (whatever you - Mr Humpty Dumpty - intend that word to mean in your curious private language) . None of your ignorant postings have proved anything apart from your own ill-informed prejudices. As i said before please show some respectable evidential material on how Muslim men, because of their faith, are more prone to rape women than other groups. I know you cannot. Those early posts stand as clear evidence of your position.

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You already discredited yourself hen it was clear you hadn't read the posts and then manufactured a critique of dissenters based on your own biased viewpoint. I have only presented 1 academic study and 1 book on the subject. I could present more. You and your ilk have presented.nothing but personal attacks and stale rhetoric. Let us not forget that I am the only person who presented original Belgian sources on.this subjext. You have produced nothing and have gotten it WRONG when you did comment.

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Originally Posted by loveboof

I don't know why people raise issues with Christianity in response to a specific comment about Islam (or any other religion). This happened before when I said something or other. Is it relevant? Why point out that Christianity is ridiculous too? Do you believe I am a Christian who is simply being hypocritical?

To be honest, it does kinda feel like some PC uncomfortableness with any criticism of Islam.


As soon as we can all agree on that the better imo... :)

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I can't speak to why "people" react in such a way, but I do so because hypocrisy drives me apeshit. There's something distinctly colonial about scouring the Internets for obscure Koranic interpretations while pointedly ignoring all the sick shit in the Christian Bible. There's really nothing that you can say about Islam that you can't also say about Christianity. So I really don't understand the motivation to chime in with pearl-clutching over Islam.

If you had said, "Religious people love rape because they hate women," that would be an even-handed comment. But you didn't. You googled "Islam" and "rape" and pasted in the creepiest thing you could find. Why do that?

My hypothesis, given the overwhelming proliferation of armchair Koran "experts" and white people with "Muslim friends" since 9/11, is that concern-trolling Islam provides convenient cover for hating on brown people. Whereas it is no longer acceptable to say, "Wogs like to fuck goats," there is very little social sanction against those who say, "The story of Ayesha illustrates the central role of pedophilia in Islam."

I don't know you at all, so I can't say whether you, loveboof, are a bigot or are just trying to be clever. But I can say for certain that the activity that you're engaged in -- nitpicking the brown people's religion while staying mum on the white people's religion -- provides cover for bigots.

Tragicomedy wrote; "You already discredited yourself when it was clear you hadn't read the posts and then manufactured a critique of dissenters based on your own biased viewpoint. I have only presented 1 academic study and 1 book on the subject. I could present more. You and your ilk have presented.nothing but personal attacks and stale rhetoric. Let us not forget that I am the only person who presented original Belgian sources on.this subjext. You have produced nothing and have gotten it WRONG when you did comment."

No I made one small error - attributing to you postings from specifically racist websites. As I have already pointed out your attitudes chime with the values on these sites. I have read all your posts (bar those in the Flemish languge which i do not speak) But you have presented NOTHING at all which substantiates your racist assumptions. So don't talk piffle. Discredited? Hardly. I have invited you over and over again to offer some substantial intellectually sound evidence of your assertions about islam and sexuality which you have failed to do. My "biased" viewpoint is based on actual experience of working with Muslims, working extensively in Arab countries and on academic studies to do with radical islam - including a University fellowship which has been devoted to focusing on Islam. Your so called original Belgian sources, it appears, do not IN ANY WAY attribute these attacks to people who are proved to be muslims. Nor as Stavros pointed out has anyone actually been convicted of this. You present a farrago of prejudice and have the audacity to say the rest of us present stale rhetoric and personal attacks. Your base your views entirely on cliched prejudices.

I shan't be commenting anymore on your racism.

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Originally Posted by tragicomedy

You already discredited yourself hen it was clear you hadn't read the posts and then manufactured a critique of dissenters based on your own biased viewpoint. I have only presented 1 academic study and 1 book on the subject. I could present more. You and your ilk have presented.nothing but personal attacks and stale rhetoric. Let us not forget that I am the only person who presented original Belgian sources on.this subjext. You have produced nothing and have gotten it WRONG when you did comment.

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Unfortunately, I did waste about 10 minutes of my precious time on earth referencing all the links in your prior post. None were academic studies. One was a very brief wikipedia article about a book written in French, but none of the links provided actual content from that book. Thus, we are left with a series of anecdotal accounts -- several describing the same incident -- and an opinion piece which contains this interesting tidbit: "The Derby gang was all Asian except for one seasoned white abuser."

I do epidemiological work, and I'm continually amazed that lay people don't really understand what evidence is. For instance, this story is not actually evidence that white men are serial rapists.

Also still waiting for your Belgian sources discussing the ethno-religious aspects of youth crime.

Well said thombergeron

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Originally Posted by thombergeron

I can't speak to why "people" react in such a way, but I do so because hypocrisy drives me apeshit. There's something distinctly colonial about scouring the Internets for obscure Koranic interpretations while pointedly ignoring all the sick shit in the Christian Bible. There's really nothing that you can say about Islam that you can't also say about Christianity. So I really don't understand the motivation to chime in with pearl-clutching over Islam.

If you had said, "Religious people love rape because they hate women," that would be an even-handed comment. But you didn't. You googled "Islam" and "rape" and pasted in the creepiest thing you could find. Why do that?

My hypothesis, given the overwhelming proliferation of armchair Koran "experts" and white people with "Muslim friends" since 9/11, is that concern-trolling Islam provides convenient cover for hating on brown people. Whereas it is no longer acceptable to say, "Wogs like to fuck goats," there is very little social sanction against those who say, "The story of Ayesha illustrates the central role of pedophilia in Islam."

I don't know you at all, so I can't say whether you, loveboof, are a bigot or are just trying to be clever. But I can say for certain that the activity that you're engaged in -- nitpicking the brown people's religion while staying mum on the white people's religion -- provides cover for bigots.

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Well let me set your mind at ease with the 'apeshit hypocrisy' - I am not a Christian; I think it is just as dumb. However, it would be particularly irrelevant for me to chime into a discussion about Muslims raping people with some interesting quotations from the bible about rape. Surely you can see that?

And actually, I didn't google Islam and rape then post my findings. I remembered something interesting about Islam (namely, that 'right hand possesses' thing) and thought I'd share it.

9/11 has nothing to do with anthing I have said. There was a stage when I was younger that every single one of my good friends were Muslim (happenstance and a complete lack of racism/bigotry were the likely factors). I have been friends with some of them for over 15 years, others I have lost contact with. Not a cover for 'hating brown people'. You are not in a position to tell me what I believe about anything - the best you can do is interpret the words I am saying... (not what you see in between them)

I can just as easily nit-pick white people's religion (wtf does that mean btw?), but that is not really relevant when we're specifically talking about Islam. As I said, it is not a defense of Islam to say 'Christianity is just as fucked up'.