Donald Trump Indicted on 7 Counts

Not an expert on this, but Mark Meadows wants his trial moved to a Federal Court because he claims he was acting in his capacity as a Federal official. I am not sure but what puzzles me, is that if the White House has lawyers who are on the Federal payroll, why would the Chief of Staff allow a group of other lawyers to both enter the Oval Office, and advise the President? On the Georgia call there was a woman named Cleta Mitchell who clearly did not know Georgia election law, and also there are people such as Giuliani, Sidney Powell and John Eastman, the latter two coming from some obscurity -was it Steve Bannon or Roger Stone who recommended them to Trump? And who told them? But crucially, as none of them were Federal officials, and Meadows knew this, his own behaviour suggests that in participating with them in the call, he stepped outside of his Federal responsibility to become part of the conspiracy to change an election result, which no President or member of his staff has the legal right to do.

I might be wrong, or does the law allow a President to interfere in State elections? And what is the role of the Chief of Staff in this, to advise, or just be an obedient servant? If Trump told Meadows to throw a cat out of the window, would he do so without question?

Mark Meadows testifies in bid to move Georgia election case to federal court | Mark Meadows | The Guardian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

Not an expert on this, but Mark Meadows wants his trial moved to a Federal Court because he claims he was acting in his capacity as a Federal official. I am not sure but what puzzles me, is that if the White House has lawyers who are on the Federal payroll, why would the Chief of Staff allow a group of other lawyers to both enter the Oval Office, and advise the President? On the Georgia call there was a woman named Cleta Mitchell who clearly did not know Georgia election law, and also there are people such as Giuliani, Sidney Powell and John Eastman, the latter two coming from some obscurity -was it Steve Bannon or Roger Stone who recommended them to Trump? And who told them? But crucially, as none of them were Federal officials, and Meadows knew this, his own behaviour suggests that in participating with them in the call, he stepped outside of his Federal responsibility to become part of the conspiracy to change an election result, which no President or member of his staff has the legal right to do.

I might be wrong, or does the law allow a President to interfere in State elections? And what is the role of the Chief of Staff in this, to advise, or just be an obedient servant? If Trump told Meadows to throw a cat out of the window, would he do so without question?

Mark Meadows testifies in bid to move Georgia election case to federal court | Mark Meadows | The Guardian

---

No the law doesn't allow a sitting president to interfere in state elections,a chief of staff's job is responsible for directing,managing and overseeing all policy development,daily operations and staff activities for the president. Mark Meadows would do without question.

Yes. The paradox of losing the plot by following one.

I know it is a different case from the one in the OP, but there is an intriguing aspect to the case in New York concerning the claim Trump made fraudulent claims about the value of his properties there. Earlier this year he told the Court-

"Interrogated about the truthfulness of financial statements he gave to banks, Trump repeatedly insisted that, legally speaking, it didn't matter whether they were accurate or not.“I have a clause in there that says, ‘Don’t believe the statement. Go out and do your own work.’ This statement is ‘worthless.’ It means nothing,” Trump testified. Given the disclaimer, he said, “you’re supposed to pay no credence to what we say whatsoever.”"
-He then added
""Do you know the banks were fully paid? Do you know the banks made a lot of money?" Trump testified. "Do you know I don’t believe I ever got even a default notice, and even during COVID, the banks were all paid? And yet you’re suing on behalf of banks, I guess. It’s crazy. The whole case is crazy.”"
Trump dismissive as New York attorney general accuses him of inflating his net worth by $2 billion (yahoo.com)

But if this means with regard to the Banks that 'they knew the details were crap but they calculated they could all make money from it', should this bring all those involved into a criminal investigation by the IRS? After all, the key to all this is that property values were high when a loan was sought, and low when it came to paying taxes -if Trump is saying the truth is not important, and nobody else thought so too, then he cannot be the only person on trial -?? It is rather like the argument that the auditors who sign off on accounts that are wrong are not so much incompetent, as 'in on the act'. It implicates everyone involved, not just Trump.

But, at a basic level, what does it say of a 'businessman' who knowingly tells lies to obtain money and says 'it's up to you to prove it'? Is there no point in any of these transactions and the legal process when the truth actually has power?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

"Interrogated about the truthfulness of financial statements he gave to banks, Trump repeatedly insisted that, legally speaking, it didn't matter whether they were accurate or not.“I have a clause in there that says, ‘Don’t believe the statement. Go out and do your own work.’ This statement is ‘worthless.’ It means nothing,” Trump testified. Given the disclaimer, he said, “you’re supposed to pay no credence to what we say whatsoever.”"

---

That is just bizarre. If the lenders are supposed to know the valuation was false then what was the point of it? Obviously he did it because he thought it would be to his advantage.

I'm pretty sure that you are not legally protected from liability for false statements just because there is a disclaimer in the fine print somewhere.

Related:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ol-1234815512/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by filghy2

That is just bizarre. If the lenders are supposed to know the valuation was false then what was the point of it? Obviously he did it because he thought it would be to his advantage.

I'm pretty sure that you are not legally protected from liability for false statements just because there is a disclaimer in the fine print somewhere.

---

I understand your argument, but is there a due diligence obligation on lenders. Rather than just take Trump's valuation as stated, make their own investigation? It doesn't seem credible that anyone familiar with real estate prices in Manhattan would believe some of Trump's figures. When Deutsche Bank loaned Trump a billion dollars, did they work out if he could pay it back, and how? It may be that what Trump has exploited foe years, mostly through clever lawyers, is the legal fine print but also the 'I dare you' tactic of making claims he knows lenders won't bother to check, or calculate that either way they will get their money back. I suppose the irony is that while his lenders may have got their money back, he is notorious for not paying smaller bills to people who work for him, like his 'personal lawyers'.

And, ultimately, did he break the law? We still don't know what a Court may decide.

Deutsche Bank has a long history of involvement in dubious practices (eg Russian money-laundering). I would not be surprised if there were questionable motives on their side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank

The Mug shot, sold by a Mug

"Legal experts have warned that the Fulton County Sheriff’s Office owns the copyright for the image and so could sue Mr Trump for using it on t-shirts and other merchandise."
Trump gloats about leading DeSantis in polls as mug shot merch could land him in legal hot water: Live updates (yahoo.com)

So what are they waiting for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

The Mug shot, sold by a Mug

"Legal experts have warned that the Fulton County Sheriff’s Office owns the copyright for the image and so could sue Mr Trump for using it on t-shirts and other merchandise."
Trump gloats about leading DeSantis in polls as mug shot merch could land him in legal hot water: Live updates (yahoo.com)

So what are they waiting for?

---

The criminal prosecution is a higher priority than filing a lawsuit.

The Politico article in the link looks into the fractures that might emerge among the 19 Defendants in the Georgia case.

What I don't know is what the legal status is of lawyers like John Eastman and Sidney Powell -if they are not on a Federal Contract, are they allowed to claim 'Attorney-Client Privilege'? Set aside the claim the law was broken, changing the rules, I don't really understand their status, or how they even got into the White House at all.

In the case of Mark Meadows, his problem is that in addition to being a Federal Employee, he must also be aware of the Hatch Act, and the argument that a sitting President has no legal right to personally challenge any election result in any State, let alone get the senior official on the phone to seek a reversal of the outcome.

But this is quite astonishing, if true-

"Meadows made clear in his own testimony at last week’s hearing that Trump viewed the false electors as a significant part of his strategy to remain in power. He said he sent an email pushing the campaign to assemble those slates because he feared a tongue-lashing from Trump.
“What I didn’t want to happen was for the campaign to prevail in court action and not have this” lined up, he said.
“Why?” prosecutor Anna Cross asked him.
“Because I knew I’d be yelled at by the president of the United States,” he said."
Trump’s co-defendants are already starting to turn against him - POLITICO

Seriously? If he is that terrified of the man, why didn't he just resign and let someone else do the dirty jobs as dictated to by Trump? Or, how about telling the man 'You can't do this, it's against the law'?

Pathetic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

Seriously? If he is that terrified of the man, why didn't he just resign and let someone else do the dirty jobs as dictated to by Trump? Or, how about telling the man 'You can't do this, it's against the law'?

---

Because he was afraid of him. He knew that if he didn't do what Trump wanted, Trump would try to ruin him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

The Politico article in the link looks into the fractures that might emerge among the 19 Defendants in the Georgia case.

What I don't know is what the legal status is of lawyers like John Eastman and Sidney Powell -if they are not on a Federal Contract, are they allowed to claim 'Attorney-Client Privilege'? Set aside the claim the law was broken, changing the rules, I don't really understand their status, or how they even got into the White House at all.

In the case of Mark Meadows, his problem is that in addition to being a Federal Employee, he must also be aware of the Hatch Act, and the argument that a sitting President has no legal right to personally challenge any election result in any State, let alone get the senior official on the phone to seek a reversal of the outcome.

But this is quite astonishing, if true-

"Meadows made clear in his own testimony at last week’s hearing that Trump viewed the false electors as a significant part of his strategy to remain in power. He said he sent an email pushing the campaign to assemble those slates because he feared a tongue-lashing from Trump.
“What I didn’t want to happen was for the campaign to prevail in court action and not have this” lined up, he said.
“Why?” prosecutor Anna Cross asked him.
“Because I knew I’d be yelled at by the president of the United States,” he said."
Trump’s co-defendants are already starting to turn against him - POLITICO

Seriously? If he is that terrified of the man, why didn't he just resign and let someone else do the dirty jobs as dictated to by Trump? Or, how about telling the man 'You can't do this, it's against the law'?

Pathetic.

---

Because Mark Meadows is very afraid of his leader the MAGA King Donald Trump,because if he did resign,his leader would go after him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo

Because he was afraid of him. He knew that if he didn't do what Trump wanted, Trump would try to ruin him.

---

If you are right it only raises more questions about what kind of a man Mark Meadows is. He took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not Donald Trump, so are you saying he not only thinks, or thought Trump is greater than America, but that he was powerless to disobey him? There may be some twisted psychology at work here, though one recalls the way Mike Pence regarded Trump in terms of some odd belief that he treats him as a Christian, his humility and virtue will be rewarded, something Trump would neither understand nor care about.

No, there is something wrong here, and it may be distilled into the 6th of January, that day when according to his staff, he did nothing as the Capitol was besieged by Trump's disciples. Surely, at critical points in history, people in positions of power are called upon to make decisions that are based on conscience, on their duty and for the benefit of the country, not themselves. I just can't understand how Trump, known to his staff as a moron, a man known to all to be utterly obsessed with himself to the exclusion of everyone else, commanded such slavish loyalty even when the people concerned could see he was destroying their country and its Institutions.

Of all the people other than Trump and Giuliani who need to be punished, Meadows must be right up there. A worthless coward, a charmless sycophant, and now a pathetic loser desperate to avoid being held accountable for his atrocious behaviour when his country was being attacked.

And when the time comes, is Trump going to defend Meadows, or cast him as one of the many he blames for his fall?

Moral cowardice has been the story of the Republican Party in recent years. Even when he was must vulnerable after January 6 those who really wanted him gone were afraid to act. If Mitch McConnell had persuaded a few others to back his words and support the impeachment the US would not be in this situation.

We all know the real source of Trump's power is the cult-like hold he has over about half of the Republican voters. The other half will largely acquiesce at the end of the day because they have been brainwashed into believing that the greater danger is the supposed liberal conspiracy to destroy their way of life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

If you are right it only raises more questions about what kind of a man Mark Meadows is. He took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not Donald Trump, so are you saying he not only thinks, or thought Trump is greater than America, but that he was powerless to disobey him? There may be some twisted psychology at work here, though one recalls the way Mike Pence regarded Trump in terms of some odd belief that he treats him as a Christian, his humility and virtue will be rewarded, something Trump would neither understand nor care about.

No, there is something wrong here, and it may be distilled into the 6th of January, that day when according to his staff, he did nothing as the Capitol was besieged by Trump's disciples. Surely, at critical points in history, people in positions of power are called upon to make decisions that are based on conscience, on their duty and for the benefit of the country, not themselves. I just can't understand how Trump, known to his staff as a moron, a man known to all to be utterly obsessed with himself to the exclusion of everyone else, commanded such slavish loyalty even when the people concerned could see he was destroying their country and its Institutions.

Of all the people other than Trump and Giuliani who need to be punished, Meadows must be right up there. A worthless coward, a charmless sycophant, and now a pathetic loser desperate to avoid being held accountable for his atrocious behaviour when his country was being attacked.

And when the time comes, is Trump going to defend Meadows, or cast him as one of the many he blames for his fall?

---

Meadows was a craven opportunist working for a craven opportunist. They flock together. Trump often uses mafia-type language when he speaks, denigrating "rats" who turned against him. Of course criminals don't like rats, because if someone talks, they don't get to continue with their crimes. None of Trump's crew cared about the Constitution. I can guarantee you that Trump has never even read it.

The more desperate he gets, the more desperate the language, but the repeated use of extreme words in the end strips them of their meaning. Mark Milley? Guilty of Treason. NBC? Guilty of Treason. And so on. Either it looks like there will be a Saudi Arabian style orgy of executions if Trump is selected by whoever counts the votes to be 'President', or this is just fatuous waffle from a man whose use of the word 'deranged' appears to be more personal than he realizes. One just hopes some nutter with an AR-15 doesn't decide to save his country by wasting its people.

Trump vows to investigate NBC parent company for ‘treason’ (yahoo.com)

L'etat, c'est moi?

The idea of restructuring the entire US government (including the DoJ) to be under Trump's personal control is not just fatuous waffle. There is a plan to do just that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025

Lock him up!

Score so far:

The Truth 1, Donald J. Trump 0.

"Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House, a New York judge ruled on Tuesday in a strongly worded rejection of the former president’s bid to throw out a civil lawsuit against him.Judge Arthur Engoron found that Trump and executives from his company, including his sons Eric and Donald Jr, routinely and repeatedly deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork.

His ruling came in a civil lawsuit brought by Letitia James, New York’s attorney general, days before the start of a non-jury trial that will hear accusations that Trump, and the Trump Organization, lied for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better terms on bank loans and insurance."
Donald Trump committed fraud as he built his real estate empire, New York judge rules | Donald Trump | The Guardian

The only question is why did it take so long? Even before he went into politics Trump seemed to have a remarkable ability to get away with ignoring the law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by filghy2

The only question is why did it take so long? Even before he went into politics Trump seemed to have a remarkable ability to get away with ignoring the law.

---

Bribery, maybe? Also, in all civil cases he had enough money to wear down any opposition in legal action.

Eric Trump values Mar-a-Lago at $1 Billion. So what does that make the White House worth?

Maybe Skittles should do night classes in maths, or night classes in basket weaving as he doesn’t yet have skills he will need to survive in this cruel, cruel world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

Score so far:

The Truth 1, Donald J. Trump 0.

"Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House, a New York judge ruled on Tuesday in a strongly worded rejection of the former president’s bid to throw out a civil lawsuit against him.Judge Arthur Engoron found that Trump and executives from his company, including his sons Eric and Donald Jr, routinely and repeatedly deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork.

His ruling came in a civil lawsuit brought by Letitia James, New York’s attorney general, days before the start of a non-jury trial that will hear accusations that Trump, and the Trump Organization, lied for a decade about asset values and his net worth to get better terms on bank loans and insurance."
Donald Trump committed fraud as he built his real estate empire, New York judge rules | Donald Trump | The Guardian

---

The MAGA King Donald Trump's persona is a sham,and is not a successful business man as he claim. And now he is going to pay the price. Great day for the truth,very bad day for Donald Trump.

The MAGA King,Domestic Terrorist Leader and Charlatan Donald Trump motion to have Judge Tanya Chutkan recuse herself has been denied by the judge her. He can use all the underhanded tactics too delay the trial all he wants,but they're going to backfire. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/27/polit...ion/index.html

Alina Hannah in court in NYC yesterday : “ “The value is what someone is willing to pay. The Trump properties are Mona Lisa properties” “.

a) there is only one Mona Lisa, but multiples of Trump or Trump branded properties, and if Mar-a-Lago is worth a billion $ the question is, outside of Saudi Arabia or the Gulf, is there anyone dumb enough to pay such a sum for a property that could be underwater in 10 years time?

b) value is not price, and cannot always be simply equated- I don’t know if Doral is one of the best golf courses in the US, but is it not conceivable that Trump properties now, regardless of their location and value, are priced below their worth because the Trump brand has become a negative in the market?

Yes, Stavros, you make a very good point. Value is dictated by desire. Be it a painting, a property or anything else. For Trump, he's fucked. He was always a sham and now, the rest of the world will know it too.
Mar a Lago, (so fitting! The name sounds like a shitty club) will never fetch such a price, unless it becomes an attraction for the utterly stupid and/or children learning about treason and corruption in grade school. Hopefully, he's having a heart attack now, and dying peacefully in his sleep.

This is getting silly now. The Telegraph has the staff to do the simple research to show why Trump cannot become the next Speaker of the House. But who takes the Telegraph seriously these days anyway? It appears on the yahoo site, given that most Telegraph articles are hidden behind a paywall. Who would want to pay for this crap?

Trump to be nominated as next House speaker (yahoo.com)

Hold on, here's why Trump can't become House speaker – for now (nypost.com)

"Lawyers for Donald Trump have urged a federal judge to dismiss the criminal case over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results, advancing a sweeping interpretation of executive power that contends that former presidents are immune from prosecution for conduct related to their duties while in office."
Trump endorses Jim Jordan for House speaker but race remains wide open – US politics live (theguardian.com)

Duties? What duties? Correct me if I am wrong, but a sitting President has no role in the processing of the election, from the count through to the declarations, the Electoral College, and the Certification of the College results in Congress. The only duty a President has, is to accept the result.

Flippin' Heck! Whose next in line to turn over like a guilty dog, their paws in the air, tongue out of mouth?

Donald, where's ya troosers?

Release the Kraken! Nark the Ravens! By the waters of Babbalong we sat down to dye...

Score so far:

Democracy 2, Autocracy 0

"Lawyer Sidney Powell pleaded guilty to reduced charges Thursday over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s loss in the 2020 election in Georgia, becoming the second defendant in the sprawling case to reach a deal with prosecutors."

Sidney Powell pleads guilty in case over efforts to overturn Trump's Georgia loss and gets probation (yahoo.com)

Can't wait for his cronies to testify against him.

Is this man ever going to be treated equally before the law? His outrageous insults and threats must surely 'have their day in court'? Or is even the justice system terrified of this con-man who dares everyone to do the right thing, knowing he is wrong?

"Donald Trump refused to take down a post attacking the law clerk of the judge overseeing his bank fraud trial in New York—blatantly violating the court’s gag order—and lawyers on both sides have just been notified that hell is nigh."
Trump Is About to Be Ripped to Shreds by NYC Bank Fraud Trial Judge (yahoo.com)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo

Can't wait for his cronies to testify against him.

---

Same here,and one by one they'll be turning on him to save their own asses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

Is this man ever going to be treated equally before the law? His outrageous insults and threats must surely 'have their day in court'? Or is even the justice system terrified of this con-man who dares everyone to do the right thing, knowing he is wrong?

"Donald Trump refused to take down a post attacking the law clerk of the judge overseeing his bank fraud trial in New York—blatantly violating the court’s gag order—and lawyers on both sides have just been notified that hell is nigh."
Trump Is About to Be Ripped to Shreds by NYC Bank Fraud Trial Judge (yahoo.com)

---

REPOST: The Pathological Lying Charlatan And Petulant Child Donald Trump's threats and insults againist Federal Judges,Special Prosecutors,District Attorneys and Witnesses,will have their day in court and be used against him,and will land him in prison and also send a strong message,that nobody is above the law including him.. And the despicable comments he is making againist the people who is prosecuting him,are being used to raise money for his campaign and rile up his supporters.

Update on the score:

Democracy 3. Autocracy 0

Is this the political equivalent of ten-pin bowling?

Who's next? Eastman? Giuliani?

"The surprise announcement that former Donald Trump lawyer Kenneth Cheebro has agreed to a plea deal in his Georgia racketeering case is a "serious threat" to the former president and his legal team which may be faced with seeing one of their key Jan. 6 defense strategies be made null and void..."
Trump faces new 'serious threat' his key Jan. 6 defense strategy could be dismantled (msn.com) (Spelling mistake in original).

"Former President Donald Trump claimed Sidney Powell was “never” his attorney in a social media post Sunday, three days after she pleaded guilty in the Georgia election subversion case.".
After Sidney Powell pleads guilty in Georgia case, Trump claims she was 'never' his attorney, despite their past ties | CNN Politics

Next: Trump says 'Giuliani was never my lawyer, and I can prove it -check my account, I never paid him'...

"Midnight shakes the memory

As a madman shakes a dead geranium".

And again

Democracy 4, Autocracy 0
(*I am adding the New York real estate to the stats)

Yet Another Trump Election Lawyer Has Taken a Plea Deal (yahoo.com)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

And again

Democracy 4, Autocracy 0
(*I am adding the New York real estate to the stats)

Yet Another Trump Election Lawyer Has Taken a Plea Deal (yahoo.com)

---

Jenna Ellis filpped,and there will be more that will flip.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

"Former President Donald Trump claimed Sidney Powell was “never” his attorney in a social media post Sunday, three days after she pleaded guilty in the Georgia election subversion case.".
After Sidney Powell pleads guilty in Georgia case, Trump claims she was 'never' his attorney, despite their past ties | CNN Politics

Next: Trump says 'Giuliani was never my lawyer, and I can prove it -check my account, I never paid him'...

"Midnight shakes the memory

As a madman shakes a dead geranium".

---

More deflection and denial from Donald-PLCANPC-Trump.

Justice Arthur F.Engoron fined Donald-PLCAPC-Trump $ 10,000 dollars for breaking the gag order,unfortunately this isn't going to do anything to deter him from making threats and insults againist prosecutors,federal judges and their staffs,and witnesses,because he thinks he's above the law. The only option is to put him in jail for contempt of court,but even that comes with some risks. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/25/n...r-engoron.html