BREAKING: 'Transgender' excluded from ENDA

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Originally Posted by TrueBeauty TS

And God forbid they should go " out of their way to protray a positive media image." You think showing the world that all trannys are whores and sex workers would put us in a better light?
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but, TrueBeautyTS, if there was NO single ts-hooker on this planet, do you think there would be MORE "mainstream"-acceptance?

I highly doubt that. in the western hemisphere everything has to be good/bad, black/white, man/woman

TS just transcend that fine and handy dichotomy. and thats enough for many to simply dont like TS.

I remember my biology teacher in highschool, who was so anti gay it was ridiculous. for him ANY gay guy was a child molester, and trans were the ultimate bottom-feeders for him. hopelessly ill in the head. and this was a catholic private school , ten years ago, and suffice to say he was a RESPECTED MEMBER of the community.

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Originally Posted by mbf

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Originally Posted by Felicia Katt

It seems to me that the gay community decided that half a loaf was better than none, so they took what they could get, leaving the transgender community with nothing but crumbs. .... So the public perception of being gay has been molded and changed from flamboyance, feather boas and leather to the mainstream of the mundane, minivans, monogamy and McDonalds. But even as the public face of gayness has so evolved, the community kept its solidarity.
FK

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here is my two - most likely - unwanted cents nevertheless Im gonna post away.

gays are integrated in the "mainstream" ONLY on a case-to-case base, in selected fields and at selcted places.

gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees

the "public perception" doesnt change that a bit. be openly gay in a job thats NOT the arts, fashion, entertainment - and you are at best ridiculed or more likel FIRED. sure, thats more than the "t-community" has achieved yet.

gays are excepted as the "interesting" sidekick, the "creative" fashion designer. and NOT your kids schoolteacher.

show me a high ranking openly gay decision maker. or a blue collar guy who says hes gay.

but maybe europe is really different in that respect, you have an openly gay mayor in Hamburg as well as in Berlin, the capitol of the most important european state. you have a (former prostitue btw) transgender-activist in the Italian parliament.

just dont kid yourselves - the "mainstream" onmly accepts outsiders or minorities if they can be exploited.

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I am going to have to beg to differ with you, there are gays in all
walks of life, living quite openly. You may not know them, but I kow many
gay and lesbian people working in blue, grey, pink and while collar
occupations, not merely the stereotypical ones like the arts and fashion.

I will agree with this:

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gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees

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Gays because they are usually single and without children, tend to have
a great deal of disposable income, thus this makes them a very sought
after market demographic.

As voters, they are very organized and will mobilize to get the candidate
of their chosing in or out of office. They also will lobby very aggressively
for issues impacting them.

And finally not only are they employees, but they are often employers as
well, and their voice by virtue of being taxpayers is one that must be
heard.

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Originally Posted by mbf

but, TrueBeautyTS, if there was NO single ts-hooker on this planet, do you think there would be MORE "mainstream"-acceptance?

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Yes, I do. If every TS was a beautiful, ellegant, educated, well-mannered young woman, I think there would be more mainstream exceptance. But I know that's not the reality and that was not what I was implying.

I was simply saying to Brenda that ONLY portraying TS's as sex workers, street walkers and whores is not any better than bashing the TS activists she dislikes so much.

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ooops hit the wrong button, sorry folx!!!

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Originally Posted by Nowhere

So, I think this is just expected and should be yet another example of why the TS Community should stop associating themselves with the gay community and realize that they must fend for themselves.

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Agreed. Everyone that has an interest in the TS world needs to become an activist. Grandparents of TS's, Parents of TS's, brothers & sisters of TS's, lovers & admireres of TS's.


And how many TS's are registered to vote? Maybe next to the free AIDS testing booth, we need a free voter registration booth. Squeeky wheel gets the grease.


You don't have to wear a "I AM A TRANNY" T-shirt, but start making a small difference in everyday life. Speak out against someone making a snide remark about a TS, casually say that you've met a TS before and they seemed like "normal people" (even if that's a lie. LOL) Hire a tranny a work. Just start winning small battles. They will add up.


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Originally Posted by mbf

gays are now beeing - somewhat - accepted because they are

a) consumers
b) voters
c) (possible) employees

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Totally. It's all about power and we have little.

...unless we stop bitching and fix this:

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Originally Posted by mbf

There is no real solidarity in the T community. Transsexuals denigrate crossdressers, Young transsexuals would throw older ones from the train if not under it. I have cringed reading some of the posts here about older transitioners. The beautiful would abandon the homely. And the admirers feel free to heap abuse on any girl who doesn't meet their ideals, and to cower behind their anonymous "straightness", even aganist other fellow admirers. Well, wake up everyone. We can't expect the rest of society to treat us better than we do ourselves. Right now, they look at us, and see how fractured and divisive and dysfunctional our community is and its easy for them to say, they deserve what they get, and they aren't like us.

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Which is was exactly what I was talking about in this post:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...r=asc&start=20

Come on people!

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Originally Posted by SarahG

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Originally Posted by Nowhere

It's fairly clear by now that they've really had no interest in the betterment of the TS Community at all. There may have been some coincidental alliances back in the days of stonewall, but that is long in the past.

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Beyond that I agree with your notion of how we are ignored in terms of hate crime outcry, trivialized by those who see us as freaks, not defended by those in the community baring witness to the occasional "lumberjack lesbian hate speech against trans individuals" but really, what would you propose to replace the lgbt bedside alliance?

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I propose doing what is necessary, which has been necessary, all along. The TS Community must take care of itself.

And, it should take MORE care of itself. It should be more vigilant on getting the proper perception of all girls in the media. For example, anyone with reasonable knowledge knows the "Springer" model - working girls use it for a laugh and as advertisement for future dates.

The TS community should completely condemn that. And, to top (this also might be controversial), but all girls who do that, I believe, should be completely ostracized from the community, too. There is nothing more destructive to acceptance than making girls look like circus freaks, no matter how passable they are.

The community should develop it's own legal teams to deal with all of the hate crimes that are so rampant. They should deal with the media when they're ignored or treated like freaks by it.

The overall perception of girls should be taken back into their hands and should be carefully managed so that they are ALWAYS seen as women, just as gays carefully manage the perception of them to be always seen as human.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

We're such a tiny demographic size wise, we'd never be able to stand on our own. Fuck, no civil rights movement IN HISTORY has been able to get anywhere without widespread support from people in groups not related to the struggle personally. The black civil rights movement had the moderate jews, women's suffrage had male progressives, child labor laws had politically active adults (ok, that example is iffy since everyone was a child once).

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Actually, I think that's a good example, since everyone knows women and half of the population are women, so reinforcing the fact that tgirls ARE women would work well, provided it was done carefully.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

I am not going to claim that every tv is a fetishist, that every late transistioner can't pass, or anything of the short... but those situations are going to keep the general public's perception twisted for quite a long time to come. Look at how the media seems to have spent years latching onto trans stories where the person in question did an overnight transistion without extended hrt use first, looking no different from their "before" picture except in different clothes, maybe with makeup or a wig... it is as damning as the "tvs are 50+ year old men jerking off in hose" image.

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And, hence the reason that image must be minimized / eliminated through careful management of the media's perception.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

The assimilationist, normal (per the general public's perception), passable transsexuals of the world are, in the realm of everyone considered to be transgendered- in the vast minority.

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It doesn't matter, as long as the passing image is the image that is known.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

When I stop and think of all the friends I have had whom have fallen off the face of the planet, I am reminded just how unrealistic a "TS only political community" is. With so many people disappearing into stealth, leaving those behind who either do not want stealth or couldn't pull it off...

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And, the only reason that is the case is because the acceptance doesn't exist. I'm quite sure most girls would not hide their past if no negative repercussions (and extreme ones at that) existed.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

I can't help but wondering why anyone would think such a situation could work. What has ts activism, without external support from any side, been able to accomplish in this country? We can't even make a uniform position regarding Bailey or Blanchard (the later of which having done the most harm to our community).

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Hence, the reason it needs to come together and take responsibility (in this case, condemning and renouncing all concepts of AG as heresy) of it's image and perception.

@SarahG

In one paragraph you talk about how time and energy has been wasted arguing over causes of transsexuality. Then in the next you say this.

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Blanchard is exactly the reason why medical treatment for GID is not covered in the US, and made as hard to reach, abrasive in process, and disenchanting as possible in Canada and the U.K.

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I decided this was not worth mentioning. In an earlier post I described a conversation with a Brit who was young post-op and in the RAF serving in Iraq for the last many years. I was curious to know if she was aware of the whole BBL ruckus over here.

I said to her: "have you hear of Chicago's Michale Bailey and his book."

She said "who?"

I said "Never mind."

And we moved on to other topics.
I really don't think that this persons life has been so effected by Bailey or Blanchard. She does not even have a clue they exist. Which I assure you is most people including the members of congress. Only within the USA/Canada is there any awareness of that issue even among transsexuals ourselves.

You really don't get the England reference? Having been here for a while. Even in context of a thread that has become about public perceptions and media matters? :-/ :-? There's something odd about that. :-\

@ True Beauty

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What have you done to make the world better for transsexuals ?

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I love it when people try to question my lifetime achievements or personal connections. It gives me a chance to brag.

I am a quietly out, passable and yes some people think I am pretty transsexual with a B.S. in physics and in graduate school. I am a role model and have blazed a little path that at least one other person has followed. For an undergrad came out as T after seeing me. I also un did the damage that Diedre McClosky had done on a local level (she was known as Dr. McKrazy for how she acted. Like a bull in a china shop wearing ill fitting ugly shoes.)

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I was simply saying to Brenda that ONLY portraying TS's as sex workers, street walkers and whores is not any better than bashing the TS activists she dislikes so much.

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I never said any such thing and anyone who takes the time to read the whole thread will know that. What I said was. Quoting myself.

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I BLAME THE TRANSGENDERED ACTIVIST! THEY HAVE MADE A WORSE IMPRESSION ON THE PUBLIC MIND THAN ALL THE STREET WALKERS AND EROS HUSTLERS COMBINED! I mean they have gone out of their way to portray a positive media image. They have done their best to make all media visible transsexuals are doctors and lawyers, and race car drivers, with fat tax exempt 401k's and nice houses. While at the same time being presentationally inept! What has it got us? A country that resents transsexuals so much that we are the most maligned minority. People who's image is one of power privilege and self determined choice. A image that makes the question of transsexual employment one of keeping suits from getting fired instead of young people scratching to survive.

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That is what I said the point of the paragraph being that the media image fostered by the activist is of someone who really dose not need employment discrimination protection. One of people who even if they loose their jobs they have enough savings and credit to survive for months or years to find a new job.

What I think the story of the much maligned street walker, or any one of the Eros providers who has a degree... would do is drive home the fact that good employable people find themselves with little real choice. other than sex work due directly to the kind of discrimination that ENDA was meant to reduce.

A second point is that people are shallow. One of the dichotomies that MBF mentioned earlier would be good looking ==> good person, bad looking ==> bad person. It's shallow and basic but people are shallow and basic. So portraying transsexuals who got their act together young, became aesthetically pleasing women, and moved on to make good in some mainstream sense. Would be a good and positive message.

One last thing. Please do not, do not put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

@SarahG

In one paragraph you talk about how time and energy has been wasted arguing over causes of transsexuality. Then in the next you say this.

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Blanchard is exactly the reason why medical treatment for GID is not covered in the US, and made as hard to reach, abrasive in process, and disenchanting as possible in Canada and the U.K.

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I decided this was not worth mentioning. In an earlier post I described a conversation with a Brit who was young post-op and in the RAF serving in Iraq for the last many years. I was curious to know if she was aware of the whole BBL ruckus over here.

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The reason why I mentioned it is because I am arguing there is a tangible difference between the Bailey issue and the Blanchard issue.

At the end of the day all Bailey does is act as a catylist in ways I've already described, Blanchard on the other hand, has single handedly formulated oppressive medical protocols that are in use in multiple countries.

Just because someone does not know who is to blame for something, does not necessarily mean a given injustice is blameless.

I am trying to draw a difference between the two to make the case that the later of the two may actually pave the way for real world changes. Blanchard's positions are slowly fallling out of medical science acceptance, and maybe, just maybe, reclassification of GID in the DSM would be able to finally break through the healthcare coverage exclusionary practices.

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That is what I said the point of the paragraph being that the media image fostered by the activist is of someone who really dose not need employment discrimination protection. One of people who even if they loose their jobs they have enough savings and credit to survive for months or years to find a new job.

What I think the story of the much maligned street walker, or any one of the Eros providers who has a degree... would do is drive home the fact that good employable people find themselves with little real choice. other than sex work due directly to the kind of discrimination that ENDA was meant to reduce.

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But that still dances around the reality that ENDA would not have actually accomplished anything in terms of making real world differences anyway.

Do you believe ENDA would have made a real world difference on a scale allowing for individuals whom feel they are forced into sex work due to discrimination, to go back into the "mainstream" workforce in a way different from prior?

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A second point is that people are shallow. One of the dichotomies that MBF mentioned earlier would be good looking ==> good person, bad looking ==> bad person. It's shallow and basic but people are shallow and basic. So portraying transsexuals who got their act together young, became aesthetically pleasing women, and moved on to make good in some mainstream sense. Would be a good and positive message

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On this point I very much agree. Bringing things into a closed circle somewhat... by reforming medical protocols in ways that allow for people to transistion at younger ages successfully, the issue of appearance will be aided, certainly of more potential than the current media addictions to older transistioners following blanchard like transitioning processes such as those already addressed in past threads like I have already eluded to.

The sympathetic, nonsexual, prepubicant child suffering from gender issues is certainly a model of outreach that has been barely touched and needs further exploration. The age old political "for the children line" has such a history because it works so well, regardless what the given issue is.

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Originally Posted by Nowhere

And, hence the reason that image must be minimized / eliminated through careful management of the media's perception.

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Agreed but one can not control the media as easily as one may think or say. The media is always a double edged sword for anyone who uses it, as the media is a business aimed for one thing and one thing only: ratings (aka profits). They'll take any side, make up any controversy, sensationalize any issue to obtain those ends.

Look at all the girls of the past who have gone into documentaries or other media coverage willingly hoping to optimistically "do good for the community by telling their experiences" only to have the media entity hold editorial control and thus, the ability to twist and spin to their delight.

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And, the only reason that is the case is because the acceptance doesn't exist. I'm quite sure most girls would not hide their past if no negative repercussions (and extreme ones at that) existed.

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Acceptance and tolerance are two separate things. Just because there maybe no negative consequences for coming out, doesn't mean the expierence of being out will be identical to being stealthed. That difference, as small as it is, can mean the world to people, perpetuating stealth in days when its alternatives do not have the same hostile, destructive elements.