Why not have a third gender? Neither Man nor Woman.

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Originally Posted by Legend

I recall watching something on the discovery channel about india having a third gender they were called eunicks are something like that but it was pretty negative,they were known to put curses on people if they didn't give them money right away.

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Lots of societies in the past have had people who get their testes removed in order to obtain a special status or role... but that alone doesn't make them trans per say.

For instance, there was a time when it was common in Europe for choir boys to have their testes removed so their voices wouldn't change... I think it would be pretty far stretched to claim that this makes them all trans.

It has been a fairly common practice of guards, servants etc for female royalty in numerous societies. I believe China being one of them (I am a bit rusty in this area however).

I think to begin to make the case that such people in historic groups like this were trans requires some kind of gender role component.

I don't particularly buy that all the girls in history who have lived & presented as guys in order to do things like fighting in combat were necessarily trans either. Especially when such periods are exclusive to that need and don't exist prior or after.

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Originally Posted by Legend

I recall watching something on the discovery channel about india having a third gender they were called eunicks are something like that but it was pretty negative,they were known to put curses on people if they didn't give them money right away.

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That must have been old if it called them Eunnuch's. It is true that some superstitious people belive that Hijra's. The way I hear it is that the troops of Hijra's go to the market and come on to men in public,...then threaten to out them if they do not give them money. They are also paid to bless weddings, funerals and birth's of boys. They live in second families refere to eachothers as mothers daughters and sisters (not so different from a "house" of the Ball culture). They are also known to be prostitutes. I'll bet the men the hijra harass by day are chasing the girls by nite.

It is worth noting that Indian/Pakistani people refere to us and them with the same words. What they think of Hijra's is what they think of us as well.

@Sara

Those Hijra are just as trans or even MORE trans than many of the old post-op-before-post-electrolysyis types that barge around tranny land here in the USA.

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

@Sara

Those Hijra are just as trans or even MORE trans than many of the old post-op-before-post-electrolysyis types that barge around tranny land here in the USA.

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I've never said otherwise ;)

But I felt what I said was necessary because I often see people mistakenly take such examples as Hijar to lead to false conclusions that everyone in the past whom have had sterilizations such as theirs, did so due to the fact that they are trans.

The gender role component is a more significant one than the rest in history. Going by memory many north American native tribes allowed people to live in whichever gender they felt they needed to; but did not contain an orchirectomy like procedure in the process (such as in the Hijar example).

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Originally Posted by SarahG

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

@Sara

Those Hijra are just as trans or even MORE trans than many of the old post-op-before-post-electrolysyis types that barge around tranny land here in the USA.

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I've never said otherwise ;)

But I felt what I said was necessary because I often see people mistakenly take such examples as Hijar to lead to false conclusions that everyone in the past whom have had sterilizations such as theirs, did so due to the fact that they are trans.

The gender role component is a more significant one than the rest in history. Going by memory many north American native tribes allowed people to live in whichever gender they felt they needed to; but did not contain an orchirectomy like procedure in the process (such as in the Hijar example).

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I am sure there are people who were castrated eunnuch's who were not trans. I.e. criminals.

It is risky to judge past people or people in other cultures by the ruels of our own present society. What is to say that the trans status of us now here in the USA is any more gender conflicted than the third genders of south and south east asia?

Hijra's of India now and 800 years ago were by definiion as transsexual as anyone has ever been.

Thank you, Brenda, for this thread.

I'm of both minds on this one. I fully endorse the notion of a third gender, if we cannot abolish the notion of gender altogether. The binary gender concept is born of the limited mind and seeks refuge in predicatability and conformity, both characteristics of a fearful mind unwilling to venture into the realm of unlimited possibility. However, the practicalities of changing society's consciousness on this one renders it unlikely to change.

For anyone really interested in a very cogent argument in favor of a third gender, I fully recommend the book "Gender Outlaw" by Kate Bornstein, a TS woman well ahead of her time. It should be a must read for any TS. To her, the idea of a TS woman adopting the notion that she is a woman plain and simple is to just trade one false identity for another. Gender is much more than biology and one can't get passed the fact that TG women typically are not socialized to think as women.

I have been post-op for ten years. In that time, I have gone from wanting nothing more than to "pass" (god, how I loathe that word) and being devastated anytime someone "clocked" me, to really not giving a damn what anyone knows or thinks. I have no friggin' idea what I am and I got tired trying to figure it out. People are going to label me however they wish and in accordance with their own ideas. Where am I at now? I am just me and how I look and how I express myself is purely a reflection of how I wish to self-express in this lifetime.

There is a 3rd gender...hermaphrodite


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

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Originally Posted by cockcraver

There is a 3rd gender...hermaphrodite
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

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Interesting point CC.

I'm with Mira. I've spoken to this before.

I'm not really sure anymore WHAT I am.

I'm part boy, part girl, part neither, part both.

I'm NOT a boy, but I'll never completely be a girl. I'm neither.

I LOVE being a girl, I like doing a lot of boy things, I'm both.

I'm attracted to men, as a woman. I'm attracted to women, more as a man than a woman. And I'm in love with another TS girl as a lesbian.

So what am I?

The only thing I can come up with is I am part of the evolution of humankind, the physical creation of a third gender.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

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So what am I?

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Exactly? I don't care for labels. But society at large loves em. how about three check boxes. M, F, T.... or better yet just a blank line. Write in what you want, could be nice.

:tsk: that will never happen :tsk

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Originally Posted by BrendaQG

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So what am I?

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Exactly? I don't care for labels. But society at large loves em. how about three check boxes. M, F, T.... or better yet just a blank line. Write in what you want, could be nice.

:tsk: that will never happen :tsk

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Reminds me of my favorite Woody Guthrie story. When the fabled folksinger was admitted to the hospital, he was asked to state his religion on the form. He wrote "All." They said he couldn't do that. So he crossed it out and wrote "None."

How about no gender?

Or for Sex: write "Yes"

I think the "3rd gender" phrase is clearly operating under the assumption that all trans people are mtf's. If someone is to take this argument and run with it, what they're advocating is a system of no less than FOUR genders given the existance of ftm's.

Realistically there is no real service rendered by the use of gender or sex status notations in our systems. If you're into genealogy you'd find that what information was kept in church or government database systems in history is vastly different from today, the use of sex or gender status markers on paperwork really was not always in the norm.

We seem to have this crack-like addiction to adding more and more information to these databases needlessly. I don't care if the database is for a financial institution, school, government, church or other facility, every time someone requests more information than is truly needed, the people are effectively setting a precedent of requiring that extra information by "playing along"

The use of social security numbers as a national identification system would not have been possible if people had refused to use that information in financial institutions, schools, businesses and other nongovernmental parties.