I did not flesh that particular statement out. It was like 3am, and instead of coming here because I was feeling frisky, like I was, I wound up posting in this thread. And I'm still feeling frisky, albeit far more tired. Ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
One in particular comes to mind. I knew a gentleman who actually reminds me of Lawrence Fishburne's character in the film "Assault on Precinct 13". A colleague and I had a conversation about him from when my colleague was researching something for his previous job (the guy is a "lifer" in prison) and my colleague asked this man if he'd "found" religion in his incarceration. The man explained, no he had not. He'd killed a number of men and women for his country, but he after he continued killing, which he felt was his "affliction". Anyway, he said he'd watched men and women beg for their lives and ask God to save them and only one, the victim that testified against him, actually survived. The man said watching their pleas go unanswered completely turned him away from the notion of religion. His last two victims he'd shot just to see show them God was not coming to their rescue.Quote:
What is one to think, though, of the many theists who insist that the thought of a deity inflicting punishment on them in the afterlife is what stops people from being serial murderers and serial raptists? As in: if their deity wasn't going to punish them for doing it, thern that's what they would be doing all day and every night?
Whereas you will find many nonbelievers who would never even consider commiting such appalling crimes, and they don't need to have the pants scared off them by an imaginary all-powerful being to live as they do either!
You mentioned that there have been people who have committed immoral acts in order to demonstrate that God does not exist. I'm not sure if I've ever come across any record of people behaving in that way simply to prove that particular point. If you could give some examples of that, I'd be interested to read about it. (If God existed, why would he let them do that?)
I had to shower after our conversation. It was truly disturbing, just knowing someone would even go that far.
You have brought up what's usually called "the problem of evil" (as I'm sure you know) which asks the theist to explain why, if his deity is in fact all powerful and desires what is good, there is so much evil in the world. Not only acts committed by human beings, but also events such as tsunamis, cancer, etc. I've yet to read a decent response to that particular problem.[/quote]
Honestly, neither have I. But I've often wondered--and this is "completely" left field here--why didn't those who could've done something to prevent some of these things from happening to other people, choose not to? Why did the government turn a blind eye to the levees in Louisiana? Why did my uncle, knowingly choose to not take care of his body, which ultimately led to his heart attack and subsequently his passing? Why didn't those folks in the government who knew about the potential attacks of 911, choose to ignore the intel they were given, leading to many lives being lost? It's difficult to answer these question because on the one side, one would argue, it was "destiny", but on the other, someone could argue it was irresponsibility in the hands of those who could've done more and then didn't. It's also difficult to answer that question because I dunno how each and every person was affected. How did they're life change from before the incident? How did others lives change? How were those who weren't as directly involved affected? I watched 20/20 I believe, a few nights ago and they had a segment about this little girl who's sister was murdered. She tried to protect her sister by covering her body from the assailants, but the girl wound up paralyzed from having her spinal cord severed while she was constantly being stabbed. The girls' mother had gone to a casino to gamble and left them in their trailer when, apparently two teens looking for retribution against the mother, forced their way in. The mother wound up in prison, as well as the two teens, who weren't remorseful in the least bit. I wish I could remember her name, but it honestly escapes me at the moment.
One could argued, how could a God, who's supposed to be so loving and so tolerant, have let that happen to those poor little girls? But the girl survived and though she misses her sister and was neglected by her mother, she was eventually adopted by an exceptionally loving family. At the end of the segment, the girl said she was sad about her sister, but the incident gave her a better life. Again, someone could look at this situation and say "how could this have happened? Her and her sister were innocent bystanders?" But this girl feels she has a truly wonderful life because of it.
So it's extremely difficult to answer that question definitively from the religious or non-religious side without knowing how each and every person copes, reacts and adjusts. That's about as honest an assessment I humbly feel I can make without trying to make it sound like a cop-out.
And I've asked plenty theists over the years. I even engaged my local reverend in a little debate in the local press a while back, and all he had to say is that sometimes we are left with "puzzles and perplexities" as we consider God's work. Which obviously, is not an adequate answer. (Rather, it's an admission that he doesn't have one.)
You also don't address the issue of people committing immoral acts because they believe there is a God, and He wants them to do it. Some terrible crimes have been committed by the most religious of people.[/quote]
I just addressed it in my last post, to a degree, but I do concur, some of the most heinous acts against humanity have been committed by religious people. Again, I believe it is an issue of interpretation of the text rather than--for the most part--the actual text or the religion itself. It's the same as religious people feeling because they believe in God, they're on the same level as God in the respect that they feel it okay to judge someone else. I do not agree with this at all, but I cannot speak for someone else nor even begin to explain another person's actions.
Again, I do not claim to know all there is to know about a subject but this is a truly fascinating discussion for me.
