Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
Queens Guy
Stavros, we will have to agree to disagree about the credibility of Ms. Jeantel. I can understand her disrespect or hostility toward the defense attorneys. I could understand her indifference to the whole system if the tables had been turned and Trayvon killed Zimmerman that night and was accused of murder. However, what I find reprehensible is the disrespect and indifference her conduct shows to the Martin family. She is not a child. She is an adult. She was an adult on the day Trayvon was killed. The Martin family deserves her to 'put on her helmet and get in the game'. To care enough to tell his story accurately.
Moving on to some of the other things you've said, which I think are either incorrectly reported, or at least have a counter-argument. In addition to the State of Florida having the overall burden of proof in the case in general, the State of Florida also has the burden of proof when it comes to self-defense. They must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did NOT act in self-defense. Even if the jury only thinks it was 50/50, then the State failed to reach their burden. With the testimony of the physicians assistant that treated Zimmerman the next day, she stated that his injuries are consistent with his claims that, using the defense lawyer's language, his head was smashed into the concrete walkway.
Again, I'm not rooting for one side or the other. I'm rooting for an accurate report of the days testimony. If the State 'had a good day', then say so. But, if the Defense 'had a good day', then say it.
Do we at least agree that the portion of the transcript in my previous post was important testimony, newsworthy, and worth printing and 'analyzing' by the 'experts'?
I agree and disagree. I think both you and I know that a teenager in law can be classed as an adult but lack maturity; to me she sounds immature however old she is. And was Trayvon the love of her life or just one cute guy among many she was dating who had a rough deal? Its like a film in which 'we' want the teenage girl to be absolute in her love and convictions, aware of the gravity of the situation, concerned above all for the victim, etc -the reality is that life is not like a film, it has incoherence, is shapeless, punctuated by mumblings, obscure words and phrases like 'I had a rush on it' which I could not and perhaps still do not properly understand.
In addition I am reminded of the fate of Desiree Washington, who was not only raped by Mike Tyson, but subsequently treated like a rag doll of no importance, even by Maya Angelou who spent more time defending Mike Tyson against 'a hostile media' than defending the right of Desiree Washington not to be abused -perhaps teenage black girls in the USA are close to the bottom of the pile when it comes to a hierarchy of respect?
So yes, it is worth paying attention to the details in this case and I was to some extent worried that the resume I posted would gloss over some important words and phrases, and your link filled in that gap, but there is a limit to what people will read.
I think also, the core issue is not just the 'stand your ground' element of Florida law, but a personal dynamic -was there a point at which both Zimmerman and Martin could have just stood up, as I am sure guys have done in parking lots and those basketball courts in the Projects lit at night, and said 'Fuck you!' and walked off? At what point does the shooting dead of Martin become a reasonable response, and not just a legal one?
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
There's almost no conceivable way that he should have been legally privileged to take a life.
But is it not the whole point of the law in Florida that the 'stand your ground' element of its law does in fact give someone the legal privilege to take a life?
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
I also disagree with you. The prosecution has the burden of proof but establishing that he did not act in self-defense is only difficult because it's tough to precisely reconstruct the events. There's almost no conceivable way that he should have been legally privileged to take a life. Of course one can't make that argument to a jury who has a man's life in their hands. They want to know exactly what happened. If I remember correctly, to use deadly force one must not only believe it is NECESSARY to save their life, but also be justified in believing that.
Ultimately, Zimmerman pursued someone who was unarmed, initiated a confrontation with him when told not to, was losing a fistfight and perhaps getting somewhat hurt in the process, and killed that person. The problem is that they are attempting to convict him of second degree murder.
The fact that you are sort of adamant that the media is biased against Zimmerman and forewarning of racial violence does make it seem like you would like Zimmerman to succeed at trial. That's not a bad thing. I am after all, hoping he gets convicted.
Please allow me to clarify something. I intend my statements to be a strong criticism of the media, and their performance. Not as support for George Zimmerman in any way. The media have an important duty to perform, and I think they are failing miserably.
I am not sure if the media is biased or not. They may just only care about selling newspapers or gaining viewers, which allows them to sell more advertising. In the case of Ms. Jeantel, what she looks like, how she speaks, her use of slang, the fact she can't read cursive (Which isn't her fault since schools have stopped teaching it.) and the response of social media doesn't really matter. What she said on the stand is what matters.
Also, I am not rooting for either side. If Zimmerman is guilty of what he's charged with, then throw him in jail. But, if he isn't, he shouldn't be found guilty regardless of the evidence. It wasn't right when it was done to African-Americans in the past, and it's not right if it is done today.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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What she said on the stand is what matters.
True enough in a rational discourse by dispassionate participants about a topic that carries no social, political, religious, ethnic, sexual etc. baggage. However, the lawyers are adversaries, arguing for money, promotion and prestige; the jury is no doubt far from dispassionate, and the issue is entangled with most of the baggage mentioned above. How things are said is factored into how they are judged. How a witness is perceived will be factored into his or her credibility. The lawyers know that and play to it.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
natina
The case is about negligent homicide and not homicide. There is a difference and this is the reason zimmerson should not be found not guilty.
Really? I cannot find that cited on any specific legal documents.
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Originally Posted by
natina
the charge is not 2nd degree homicide .
the charge is Zimmerman recklessly endangered Trayvon's life (Criminally Negligent Homicide ).
I don't think anyone is claiming that it is... the charge is murder in the second degree: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...an.charges.pdf
One is forced to wonder how much of what you spew... errr copy & paste you actually understand.
Zimmerman will walk and you are part of the reason.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
yodajazz
There was national outcry over the fact that there was not a trial, when there were in fact many questions involving this case. This trial is the due process, many people were asking for. Due process is not being prevented. Having a public trial is a form of due process, the last time I looked.
You are correct... a public trial is one form of due process... however it is not the only one.
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Originally Posted by
yodajazz
Seems to me like you are seeking a return to earlier times, when Whites would kill Black with impunity; lynchings, tar and feathers, bombs, and death by dragging....
You got me... that's just what I want. *shaking head*
Comments such as yours reveal more about your motivations than mine I would suspect.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
trish
The fact that there was an investigation at all is due to the public demanding there be one.
Revisionist history that you actually contradict yourself in the very next sentence:
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Originally Posted by
trish
Zimmerman was taken to the station, cursorily questioned and released.
And yet the very next day he was back at the scene of the incident walking through it with them again. This is part of what we call an 'investigation'... something that was ongoing well before this story made national news.
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Originally Posted by
trish
Many witnesses (including some who made the 911 calls, and others who lived nearby) weren't questioned until it became evident that there would have to be a real investigation.
Because the evidence at the time didn't call for it.
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Originally Posted by
trish
One early witness was interviewed in the presence of Trevon's mother. I'm not sure, is that considered good police procedure these days.
You mean Rachel Jeantel? The woman who gave false statements to police when in this high pressure situation then was admit to lying while on the stand this week?
While we all understand why she said what she did... it was that kind of investigation that caused this (&^#-storm to continue and grow.
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Originally Posted by
trish
Your asking a transgender, African/Asian American how it feels to be used?
You assume that is relevant at all to this conversation... nice try to divert though.
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Originally Posted by
trish
So a prosecutor has taken political advantage of the public relations mess created by the police. What's new? Good for her.
You seem to be forgetting the fact that you helped enabled that.
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Originally Posted by
trish
The charge should be commensurate with what the prosecutor feels she can prove given the evidence of the investigation. Not being a prosecutor or privy to the facts of the much belated investigation I won't pass judgement on whether murder-2 charges were justified. I leave it to (what were your words...oh yes) prosecutorial discretion.
I'm sorry your willingness or ability to read and comprehend the actual facts of the case (which have been available for quite some time) limit you.
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Originally Posted by
trish
Your words, not mine. I said both Martin and Zimmerman deserve due process.
Rather than try to hide, come out and define exactly what kind of 'due process' Martin & Zimmerman deserve.
From what I see... we've got a miscarriage of justice on one side... and another person who is dead.
Martin was invited into the neighborhood. He had no weapon other than a box of skittles. Zimmerman was not invited. He was a self-proclaimed vigilante with a concealed weapon stalking the neighborhood for criminals. In fact the police kinda unvited him.
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Originally Posted by
trish
Zimmerman pursues and confronts Martin for being "suspicious." A tussle ensues and Martin dies by Zimmerman's weapon. That all we or the police knew.
If you honestly believe that then you clearly have memory issues or have refused to pay attention to the facts in this case.
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Originally Posted by
trish
So what did they do? They picked up Zimmerman, questioned him briefly and released him.
Then talked to him several more times over the following days.
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Originally Posted by
trish
Due process is conducting a proper investigation and if the results warrant it, giving him a trial. Something, unfortunately, that wasn't going to happen without the media noise forcing Florida's hand. Due process is something Martin never got.
No... the investigation had already occurred... you forced the state to charge him with trumped up charges and will now not see any kind of justice other than your success at turning George Zimmerman into a pariah.
Again... when the violence comes... every single broken limb and lost life... is on your head.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
For Bobvela, it is a failure of the system that someone is being tried for shooting an unarmed black teenager.
Liar.
Based on what I know... negligent homicide would be a charge that would be in line with the facts of the case. The very charge the police wanted to bring but that the prosecutor ignored and bumped up several levels.
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
The only people who should apologize are those who failed to investigate the circumstances of Martin's death and immediately released Zimmerman from custody.
Yes... there was zero investigation after the fact and before the public outcry.
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
Here, since it is difficult to establish exactly what happened, it might be easier to show that Zimmerman did not have a legal privilege to take someone's life. That his self-defense was "imperfect", and that he committed reckless or negligent homicide.
Bingo... which is why the blame goes back to those who demanded Zimmerman's head, this over charging, and now will force an even worse outcome.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
True enough in a rational discourse by dispassionate participants about a topic that carries no social, political, religious, ethnic, sexual etc. baggage. However, the lawyers are adversaries, arguing for money, promotion and prestige; the jury is no doubt far from dispassionate, and the issue is entangled with most of the baggage mentioned above. How things are said is factored into how they are judged. How a witness is perceived will be factored into his or her credibility. The lawyers know that and play to it.
Trish, my criticism is not directed toward the lawyers.
It's directed toward the press, who are supposed to engage in a rational discourse, and report the facts. We can't be in the courtroom listening to all the testimony. (Even if I've found myself to be a bit of a trial junkie the past few days.) They are supposed to be professionals.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
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Originally Posted by
broncofan
"Jeantel later explained she is of Haitian descent and grew up speaking Creole and Spanish."
Jeantel is apparently not a native English speaker. It is already very easy to trip up a witness on cross, even more so if English is not their native language.
She was born and raised in Miami, which she testified to the previous day.
Here is the video from youtube. She starts her testimony at the 1:00:00 mark. George Zimmerman Trial - Day 3 - Part 3 - YouTube
I was born and raised and live in an ethnically diverse part of New York City. In my experience, I've gone to school with and met many families where the parents were foreign born and the children were born in the U.S.
I've never considered the U.S. born children to be 'non-native speakers', and never noticed them having any problem to speak English just as well as I did, when I was their age.
It's like the media reported half of the truth, and didn't report the other half of the truth, leading you to form the wrong impression. They didn't have to go digging to get that information, like going to her neighborhood and knock on doors and such. They just had to pay attention to her testimony.
