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The short version is this: if we use the language of political existentialism, we are all in a life or death situation. The condition of the USA after Obama was so bad that it was about to die, and only drastic measures can save it -or, it is this President who is determined to destroy what America was, in order to re-construct it as it used to be, a country that was created by, and for white chiristian people.
This is the longer version-
I think at the level you are thinking of, we should be or could be talking about what used to be called the 'zeitgeist'. If you look back at the political, economic and cultural factors that created the Third Reich, and without over-simplifying them, you can see how in the German case in particular there is the question of how Germany coalesced around a unified state in 1870, and what the impact on it was of the modernization taking place in politics and the economy, but where social forms were thus challenged, with a particular divide between the rural and the urban. Why Germany took the path that it did to dictatorship has been the cause of much debate, but there is a rough consensus that the negative energy you refer to was created by the impossible demands of Unification and Imperialism -Germany's desire for an Empire comparable in size and wealth to the British, French, Dutch and Russian Empires- but the collapse of these ideals in the First World War, and the crisis of identity that followed as Germany lost control of lands that had been in its domain -and where many people were born German and only spoke German rather than Czech or Polish- led to a belief that something had been lost, that a united Germany had in some way 'gone wrong'. Germans then saw and heard a discordant and visually deformed national culture, registered in the atonal music of the Second Viennese School, the twisted and contorted images of contemporary art, the growth of materialism and atheism -in other words, all those ingredients that led Oswald Spengler to write his famous, but miserable book, The Decline of the West, in 1923.Quote:
Originally Posted by yodajazz
The narrative that the Nazis created and manipulated, was thus a negative one: Germany had lost the war and lost its Empire, but had lost through betrayal; Germany was in reaity a great country, brought low by Germans who had sold their land to those who were not truly German -the Jews and the Communists becoming the cause of defeat and pollution. The positive view of Germany the Nazis offered, was a false one, derived from ancient writings and historical figures, of poets and composers recruited to a cause they would not have supported, but essential to an idea of what it meant to be German, a nationalism that by definition asked the question 'Do you belong here?' with the answer, if it is No, then you must leave, or be thrown out. In this either/or perspective in which the Nazi Party and the Leadership of Adolf Hitler defined the purpose of the Nation, you could only be for it, or against it.
If the crisis in modernization in Weimar Germany was distilled in the music of Schoenberg and the economic crisis that did so much to fracture German society -Schoenberg, the bankers and the media barons all being Jews, of course- you can see how the same tropes have been revived by Bannon and Miller to present a narrative of the USA since the 1960s in which all the forces that made America great have been replaced, traduced, above all betrayed by liberals. God, Family and Country have thus been replaced by atheistic materialism, one-parent families on welfare, and a country 'flooded' with immigrants.
But whereas the Positive perspective of America was of a place where the citizen was equally free to be religious or non-religious, a country where families could, and did prosper regardless of the number of its parents and children, and a country that without immigration would not exist, the element of Race, so crucial to the German experience, and a constant factor in American public life since Jamestown, gives the alt-right perspective almost the same one that characterised the German experience, but with Jews replaced for the most part by Muslims and Black Americans -Black Americans being in the privileged position of being historically the existential threat to White America, just as, since 9/11 it has been convenient to add Muslims to that threat.
So I think that the negative energy comes from the political existentialism that has become central to the Republican narrative, but one it may have borrowed from Israel, which to some extent actually has an existential dilemma the US does not, but one which is exaerbated by Netanyahu's fascist attempt to use Judaism is a form of territorial nationalism, and where it does look politically inept to absorb into the state against their will, a million Palestnians who hate it. But if the extremists in Israel view 'transfer' as a means of solving their Palestinian 'problem', there are extremists in the USA who view the solution to the Black 'problem' another form of transfer known as 'Go back to Africa'. Again there are now Germans who view the influx of refugees in 2015 to be an existential threat to what it means to be German, just as Marine le Pen in France makes the distinction that there is no more left or right in France, the distinction that only matters is between 'Globalists' and 'Patriots', language that has also been used in the US.
And, sitting between the people and their destiny, their true destiny, are the political classes who are the real traitors, legislators and decision makers who put their own interests, and the interests of their clients first with no regard for the 'little man' who is just there to work and pay taxes. With an existential crisis of this proportion, extreme measures are required to correct the mistake, which is why the most extreme individual you can think of occupies an Office of state which he treats with contempt, hoping that by the time he is finished with it, the American people will choose to dismantle their governmental institutions, reduce the Presidency to ceremonial duties, and American democracy be a 'democracy of markets' and self-regulating, self-armed communities, just like it used to be before America was ruined by the Jews, the Liberals and the Muslims.
Barack Obama played against this narrative with its stark alternative: hope and change. To his critics this sounded like something from Sunday School or Sesame Street, but Obama had the belief (Michelle talks about this in her book, Becoming) that America is at its best when it comes together, when it chooses to ignore differences, rather than to exploit them. It is the central dilemma too in election campaigns: do you go for a positive message and refrain from dishing the dirt on your rivals, or do you take them head on with the same negative ads and even vitiolic abuse they throw at you? I think Blackchubby has argued the Democrats need to play rough and promote a more radical agenda to counter the Republican campaign.
But, is the USA going through the traumas of the Civil War withut the bloodshed? Has the question -what is America for, who is America for, now become the coded message that lies beneath this astonishing moment in history when not only is the truth irrelevant, but lies are the flags waving in the crowd because people prefer lies to the truth? Given that the polls were right, and that Hillary Clinton won the vote, the result was clearly close enough to confirm that this is an intensely contested Presidency. But, the President has enough allies in Congress, specifically the Senate who are prepared to allow the most blatant and gross abuses of the Office of the Presidency on the basis it can be controlled and used to their benefit, which is how politicians in the Reichstag viewed 'Herr Hitler' in 1933; and the President only won his selection by the Electoral College by small margins of votes, while polls suggest his support has not diminished, implying those margins could be won again.
2020 could be repeated, or the President lose by margins sufficient to replace him, even with the narrative that already claims 2020 has been 'stolen' from the President -the question thus, must be -can a Democrat appeal to enough voters to win, and what tone, what message will they employ to win? On bread and butter issues, if the US shows signs of an economic downturn, Democrats could argue that the economy they handed on was in good shape but the President has run it down through his tariff barriers and sanctions and tax cuts. They could argue that the reality of immigration is that it is a blessing not a burden, and counter all the scare stories, expose the lies.
Just as in the UK there is a sense of despair with conventional politics, that in France Macron's idealism and reform has been strangled by yellow vests, hit a brick wall, is going down in flames like the Gothic tower of Notre-Dame de Paris, so it is easy to believe we are thinking dark thoughts, that we need drastic measures to resolve existential problems or we will see the break-up of the UK into its constituent parts, the USA will be torn between the coastal states and the inland empire, the Union and the Confederacy, that the EU will dissolve, and Iran and Saudi Arabia develop nuclear weapons, and the failure to tackle climate change condemn waterlogged islands to a very real extinction, and 50 million flee for their lives from south to north...
Or this is just a blip, and in 2020 the US will return to normal; the UK will end up remaining in the EU; de-industrialization will reduce the world's carbon footprint, families will be smaller, the world's population decline, and everyone will be happy.
Great post, Stavros! I read extensively about the rise of nazi germany, but presented, things i did not know. I particularly was interested, in how the 'art music' of the time, was considered, in a larger social context. In makes a lot of sense. And there were other things, as well.
But my main thrust now, is to specifically look at not just current issues, but also the spiritual issues at the roots of those issues. I have been spending time, answering YouTube reader comments, on politically themed vids. and it is the public discourse, (if you can call it that,) that really draws me in. The opinions amaze me sometimes with the lack of logic. There are still people out refusing to believe that russia conducted cyber warfare on the US. It was a smart move by Putin. It did a lot more damage than one of the US 100 million dollars apiece, F-35 fighter. Putin helped to inject negative mindset energy into the US/West. Whether there was collusion, or not makes little difference, if similar negative energies are used. And a very ironic thing that lots of negativity is put by religious groups. You know the routine, as they say. Speaking of negative energy, I curious if the under ground narrative was a witch/worshipper of Satan, reached to England? (Plus I heard some sickening rumors related to that). I know the root of how one of was based.
Call it 'Zeitgeist warfare' if you want, but 'spiritual warfare' is more broadly used here. But it is also true within the traditional religious institutions, and movements. The evangelical christian movement often has had specific views certain political positions. And the most stringent ones frame democrat/left behaviors in apocalyptic terms. I have been saying this; Democrats need to take back Jesus. I saw this expressed in one video sent to me. It was great, but I feel like it should be the mantra of the entire democratic party. But I must add, it is not, and should not be about doctrine, specific facts, (.i.e. died on the cross, etc), but on Jesus's words, in how we should act, live, and treat one another. Jesus spoke on the poor several times in the Bible. He even spoke once about eunuchs, a class of them, what we call, transgenders. And I say he was spot on, on that. (But what did he know,). lol
I'll keep you posted on my idea. Its always good to hear what's coming from the other side. Thanks!
Yodajazz, I think the 'spiritual' aspect of the political environment may be more resonant for Americans than it is for us in the UK, where religion as a component of politics has, in its Christian sense, been eclisped by the view that religion is just not important. Indeed, the irony in a largely secular society is that Muslims and Orthodx Jews are probably the most concerned in the UK with issues that link politics to religion, specifically a half-hearted campaign to ban Halal butchery, which by extension means a ban on Kosher butchery too, but not an issue that has reached Parliament. It is seen by people like me as a means of smuggling in anti-Islamic and anti-Jewish politics into a debate on animal welfare, as if cows and lambs preferred to be stunned before being slaughtered when most, indeed all, were quite happy munching grass in a field.
Religion has become weaponized in central Europe, notably in Poland and Hungary, where the public support for 'Christian' government is in part a reflection of the decades when the Communist State viewed the Church as a rival if not also an enemy. Re-discovering faith is one thing, using it to make a distinction between Christians and 'the others' has obvious problems given the fate of the Jews in Poland and Hungary, but the crisis of 2015 when Muslim refugees (though not all refugees from Syria were Muslims, some were Christian), presented European states with an oppotunity to so promote a 'Christian' culture that it would both deny those refugees sanctuary in Hungary, and oppose any attempt by the EU to absorb any in a 'quota' system. Although religion may be more important in Germany than it is in the UK, the 'backlash' against this sudden influx of refugees has tended to benefit extremist parties such as the AfD who perceive both mainstream parties, the Social Democrats and Chancellor Merkel's Christian Democrats as soft on immigration even before the 2015 crisis. Steve Bannon has thus latched on to public disquiet about the influx of Muslims and Arabs, Kurds, Turks and anyone else east of Istanbul, as constituting an attack on the foundations of Christian Europe, and has thus been campaigning for the removal of Pope Francis who he sees as another 'traitor' to the cause.
If this resonates in the US, it is because of what I see as a peculiar form of Christianity which, in the case of the so-called 'Evangelical Christians' is almost literally a 'death cult', a view of Christianity that thrives on a sense of crisis, of danger, but of a crisis whose resolution can only be, and should only be the end of the world, the second coming of Jesus and all the armageddon stuff that attends it. It seems to me, by contrast that Black American Christians, who may share the view that all shall be judged when the time comes, are more concerned with living a Christian life in the here and now, which means, as Martin Luther King argued before he was shot, that poverty is the fundamental sin of America, though I expect I am simplifying his message. Religion has for some, articulated a response to failure, and one should be aware that political Islam that took various forms before the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979, coalesced around the view that the Arabs had been losers when their states were run by liberals, socialists and military dictators -it was easy for the man in the street to identify with the slogan 'Islam is the solution' yet in practice, Islam in government, be it in Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan or 'Daesh' has been a disaster, the quality of life has declined, with the almost bizarre situation in which Muslims whose primary duty is to live and to love, take options that were only meant for extreme situations and places them at the centre of their faith so that a Muslim can say 'we value our death more than you value life'.
As with Islam so in the US so-called Christians present the crisis in their country as a loss of faith that must be restored, and see in liberal social policies on same-sex marriage, abortion and divorce, a fundamental cleavage between what the US was created for, and what it has become. For this reason, it doesn't matter if the President is a crook, a con-man, a racist, a sexist and homophobe. As long as he says he will defend and promote their campaign to 're-Christianize' America, to put God at the forefront of American life, then he can do and say anything he likes -even if it is clear in his personal life he has little that amounts to Christian humility and virtue- so desperate they are, so willing to set aside the existing laws and institutions that represent all Americans rather than just Christians -thus States will make abortion all but illegal through 'heartbeat' laws, because America is a Christian country, it belongs to them, and they will implement at State level what the President cannot do Federally, and it does not matter what the majority of Americans think and want.
And America may not want to talk about poverty as MLK wanted them to, because its solutions might be too 'socialist' if the argument is that poverty can be alleviated through social programs, while libertarians could just as argue that as they see government as the principal obstacle to prosperity, Black Americans ought to support their project.
Another strand of thinking relates the crisis of the age with government, the bureaucracy, and those beneficiaries in high finance and the corporate world. It is thus interesting that Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg have come under much scrutiny, yet there is also an argument, even Elizabeth Warren has advanced it, that in spite of the size, wealth and reach of Microsoft, Facebook and Amazon, there is no need for new anti-trust laws to break up these 'titans' of the new economy'.
But what the crisis also provides is the contradiction of the President and his clan sneering at public service, even though they themselves are public servants. A culture of blame and humiliation has now gripped the political discourse so that senior figures in established institutions like the CIA, the FBI, the Justice Department, can be publicly humiiated, abused, ridiculed, and the President expects everyone to agree with him (or doesn't care), just as members of Congress and the Press are condemned as traitors and liars. Why would anyone now consider public service something honourable? Even those who have not themselves been in service have had to suffer the ridicule and abuse of the President if their husband was killed on armed service, but the Gold Star widow does not take kindly to the President being able to pronounce his name correctly. There was no apology, but there was abuse, because that is the kind of man he is, but crucially, because he knows that by acting the way he does, he is demeaning the Office of the Presidency, so that instead of being a revered position, people will look at the Presidency as part of the problem.
This sneering conempt for politcians is part of the campaign by Bannon and a revived Fascism to identify a crisis that exists because modernization, immigration and globalization has transformed the societies in which we live, and by making them multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-cultural, and multi-sexual undermines the security of tenure that once guaranteed White Christians would be the beneficiaries of capitalism, and while they have in spite of their complaints, benefited most from globalization, people like Bannon see in the 'left behind' a new opportunity to dismantle government to replace it with markets. In effect, neo-liberalism was just chapter one of an experiment whose story is just beginning.
If there is a spiritual element to any of this, it seems to be registered as a kind of emptiness or despair, but if this does characterize where many people are, and the reistance that emerged with the survivors of Parkland has been important, with the NRA facing dissolution, it may also be due to the 'left' failing to convince themselves as well as the public that they have concrete policies that will bridge the gap between rich and poor, that will sustain even create jobs that pay a living wage, and manage the environment so that generations can enjoy its beauty and riches and not end up in a dystopian soup where the sun never shines and the Tyrrell Corporation owns everything.
Maybe we need more to believe in each other, rather than gods and monsters, and do something about the man David Frum desribed on tv last night, as 'America's No 1. Liar'. And we all know who that is.
Nobody can be surprised that the President has used his veto to render worthless a bi-partisan resolution in Congress to end the USA's materiel and moral support for the Kingdom of 9/11's campaign in the Yemen. The opportunity this gives to America's closest Arab ally and friend to abort the lives, stop the heartbeats of men, women and children, to destroy their homes and their schools, their hospitals and their businesses, to turn the poorest country on the Arabian Peninsula into a garbage dump, is an opportunity that cannot be resisted.
It is why they have given the President lovely dollars, to buy his support for mass murder in the Yemen, to buy his support for the torture of the women in Saudi Arabia's prisons who have been arrested because they thought the 'liberal reforms' of Mohammed bin Salman trumpted by Jared Kushner actually meant something, even as MSB ordered the hands, feet and head of Jamal Khashoggi to be sawn off without anaesthetic, a crime the US supports through its President, soaked as he is in lovely dollars, incapable of distinguishing right from wrong unless it has his name on a money order followed by seven deadly digits.
Congress is either an obstacle to freedom, or an irrelevant nuisance. There is no separation of powers, as the Mueller Report was designed from its inception to protect the most corrupt President since his idol, 'Indian Killer' Andrew Johnson, and the most incompetent manager ever to have disgraced the Office of the President, which now stands exposed to ridicule as being merely the cashpoint for dictators the world over, who have their greatest supporter in the White House ATM. When the price is right, American will act on their behalf, and laugh at anyone who thinks 'yuman rights' and the law have any meaning. Just as nobody is surprised he cheats at golf.
The 'Indian Killer' was Andrew Jackson, not Johnson, my mistake.
On the Hannity show they were laughing that if there had been a Fox News when Watergate happened, Nixon would not have been impeached. I think they're right.
True respect is a dear thing, difficult and demanding. Fake respect is much better, and you don't have to read 400 pages. The Republicans will stonewall to eternity.
I cannot believe that Trump didn't get nabbed on Money Laundering, and that would have been in the redacted stuff, so I think it's probable all those cases Mueller referred to New York will haunt him to his grave. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!
Don't get too down, yet. The game is not over. Congress is the one who has the Constitutional authority to make their own decision on obstruction. Bill Clinton was found guilty, on obstruction, but he was able to remain in office. Nixon was going to be tried, on obstruction before he resigned. The charge is for Congress to decide.
I think Barr's logic, in his conclusion will be tested. Two of his arguments, are that 1. you cant be guilty of obstruction, if you aren't guilty of the underlying crime. 2. By Trump doing things openly, cannot be called obstruction. However that is not a strong argument, because with congress having the authority, to impeach him, the public has influence on congress. His public comments, were made to influence the public. Plus can you name any other crime, that is not a crime, if you do it openly? Plus I believe that Mueller intended for Congress to make the determination, not someone hired by Trump to protect him. Barr had a prejudgment that a president could not obstruct justice before he took the job. I call that prejudiced. Barr's son-law, now works for the White House legal team. I joke that, if Trump is impeached, Barr's son-law will be out of a job. And Barr's daughter and family may have to move back into his family home.! lol
By the way, Barr's original letter did not, question that russia was involved in election interference. So Trump has to still reckon with 'hoax' issue, and address if he even admit whether he believes US Intelligence. . But the other thing, is still those spin-off investigations. I know they will try to knock them off one be one, but that's still coming. So don't let Trump's victory lap claims, fool you. The report hasn't been digested yet. I doubt that the 'no evidence' mantra, will survive. So no, it ain't over!
In any normal universe Trump would be in deep trouble as a result of Mueller's report. It's telling that his initial reaction to Mueller's appointment according to a witness was "This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked." The conclusion on obstruction of justice alone is pretty damning:
“If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. We are unable to reach such a judgment.”
There are precedents for people being convicted of obstruction of justice even they they were not found guilty of an underlying crime, eg Martha Stewart. Nixon was not forced to resign because he was involved in the Watergate burglary, but because he obstructed justice by trying to cover it up. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-be-obstructi/
And even if Mueller ultimately concluded that he could not establish clear evidence of a criminal conspiracy, there was clearly plenty of evidence of concerning behaviour. The fact that Republicans are spinning this as a complete exoneration speaks volumes for how deeply corrupted that party has become.
I believe in the report, stated the Mueller said he would respect DOJ guidelines, to not indict a sitting president. Knowing the Congress, would be the one to try any case against the president, he ultimately decided to hand off to Congress, and let them decide. Strategically in his public campaign of obstruction, Trump has made the case, that 'angry democrats' , 'Hillary loyalists', 'deep state', are engaging in coup, to remove him from office. So Mueller, recommending indictment, would more or less put the blame, directly on him. Whereas Congress is ultimately responsible to its constituency. Also the standard for impeachment does not require a conviction of a crime, They have the power to judge for themselves.
Yes, that "complete exoneration" was just a trick. They calculated that a percentage of people, would only remember what they first heard.
The Report is so damaging one wonders why the President has not resigned. Instead, he is already plotting his revenge-
“Statements are made about me by certain people in the Crazy Mueller Report, in itself written by 18 Angry Democrat Trump Haters, which are fabricated & totally untrue,” he said.
“It was not necessary for me to respond to statements made in the “Report” about me, some of which are total bullshit & only given to make the other person look good (or me to look bad). This was an Illegally Started Hoax that never should have happened.”
“It is now finally time to turn the tables and bring justice to some very sick and dangerous people who have committed very serious crimes, perhaps even spying or treason. This should never happen again!”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8878761.html
If Collusion is obscure in law it paid to claim the whole of the report hinged on proof of 'collusion' whereas the Report proves that the Campaign when it became aware of Russian involvement, did not peform its moral and legal obligation to inform the FBI, but sat back and let it happen, except for the Republican Candidate's public appeal to a foreign government to help his campaign -in itself a violation of the law- and which they did hours after the appeal. With over 160 references to the Russians in the Report, the prima facie case that the people involved in the Republican campaign committed treason is now stronger than ever, while the 11 instances of obstruction of justice prove what has been known since 2016- the man concerned has absolutely no respect for the law, be it the law of the United States or international law, because he is the law, just as William Barr, having lied to Congress can now only be identified as the President's lawyer, his only job to protect and serve the President.
Just as Mitchell McConnell has abdicated any authority he has as Senate Majority Leader to ignore the Mueller report, so the US not longer has a Department of Justice that serves the Constituion, the the US has only one branch of government -the Presidency- for the 'Supreme' Court will not intervene in any legal proceedings against the President who can indeed, shoot to death anyone he likes, anytime, because the President is above the law, while in the lower echelons of the judicial system tame Republican judges will do the will of the President.
The House can Impeach if it wants to, if it feels it must, but at the moment, it is irrelevant, because Congress is irrelevant. Whatever it decides the President will veto it, and the Senate bend its knee to the will of its idol.
Rupert Murdoch will act at the hatchet man for the President, selecting young women as the sacrificial lambs for the altar of the President's campaign to destroy American government, with Ilhan Omar and AOC the prizes, women who will be pilloried, abused, insulted, and humiliated in public with the full approval of the Republican Party.
Far from settling any conflct between the President and Congress, the war has only just begun, a war constructed from lies, and conducted with the now regular use by the President of swear words that not only confirm that he is an imbeclie unfit for public office, but that he is cursing in public deliberately to undermine the authority of the Presidency. From now on, the Presidency must stink, it must make the American public bear the shame its incumbent does not, just as Sarah Huckabee Sanders, having conceded to the Mueller Enquiry she made stuff up abut James Comey and the FBI, now repeats her lies, because the truth is worthless, because the key objective, the sole objetive is to bring every branch of government into disrepute, to convince the people that there is one thing they do not need in their lives: government.
If you look at the federal statute on obstruction, you can see why there should not have to be proof of an underlying crime for one to be guilty of obstruction. In its essence, it occurs when someone interferes with law enforcement objectives and does so not for some good faith reason but because they are afraid of what the process will yield. In a case such as this, where the legal issues are very complex and it's unclear what the process will yield, a person who thinks they are "fucked" and that their "presidency is over" shows the perfect mental state to obstruct.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
What probably made Mueller's job on this difficult is that he knows that even if he can indict Trump, there isn't going to be a formal trial while he is President. At trial, a jury is trying to discover whether the facts as they determine them to be meet the legal burden for commission of the crime. But it should at least reach the threshold that it is an issue of triable fact. If all of the facts are as Mueller ascertained them to be, could Trump be guilty of obstruction? Yes. I also don't think there is some magic standard of proof that needs to be met because Trump is President and has abused official duties. I think he committed multiple acts of obstruction, but the bar is so low that without proof he was an active part of a conspiracy to assist Russia while it engaged in espionage, it fits within the new norms he and his party have established.
This is a good point. And I haven't researched what the practical effect is of indicting a President if you are unable to have a criminal trial to obtain a conviction. The impeachment process takes place in the Congress in stages and it's not clear how it is meant to be synchronized with our normal criminal procedures, so it's not easy to determine what part of Mueller's failure to pursue an indictment is simply restraint.Quote:
Originally Posted by yodajazz
Before the quote by filghy above, the Report stated, "Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw conclusions about the President's conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent present difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment."
Or as Jessica Levinson said in this article, if this were a case regarding Mr. Trump rather than President Trump we'd be talking about an indictment for obstruction. https://www.vox.com/2019/4/18/184847...-legal-experts
Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives in December 1998 on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. The obstruction charge said he committed witness tampering by trying to “corruptly influence” the potential testimony of his secretary Betty Currie, and urged the former White House intern Monica Lewinsky to submit a false affidavit in a lawsuit against him.
Clinton was acquitted by the Senate. But 14 current Republican senators, some of whom were then serving in the House, voted either to impeach or convict Clinton on the obstruction charge. Some specifically cited his actions toward the witnesses when explaining their votes.
And here they are, but will they do in 2019 what they did in 1999?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...on-republicans
When I was reading about our founders deciding to make impeachment take place in the legislature rather than the judiciary, this sort of thing came to mind as a major flaw in the system. A Judiciary issues very formal opinions which means as a body their reasoning has to be made very clear. It also means they have to reconcile the opinion with other similar legal issues and fact patterns they've ruled upon. It provides a sort of rigor that the legislature may try to emulate, but we've seen they have no issue doing things for nakedly partisan reasons and not even making clear in a unified way what their real reasons are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
One thing to keep in mind when comparing this to the Clinton impeachment is what the underlying investigation each person was accused of interfering with. While Trump may not have been connected to Russia's actions in ways that are impeachable, he engaged in all sorts of self-serving hijinks to thwart a process that was about the illegal interference with our democratic processes and even our national security. Obstruction is a serious matter even if the case is trivial as it was for Bill Clinton, but it shows a much graver disrespect for his official duties that he would place his own interests over the integrity of our electoral process.
If the USA started screening Presidential candidates in Elementary School, like Israel starts grooming it's jet pilots from an early age, we'd have more of a President like Obama, who majored in Constitutional Law. But we'd still have Mitch McConnell, the cancer of the Senate, pulling anything he can get away with. God only knows what is talked about when Trump, Kellyanne, Huckabee, Stephen Miller and Mick Mulvaney get in a room together. While they entertain the WWF/Monster Truck crowd, McConnell is filling Judicial seats, and stealing Supreme Court Justices.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
In Art, you concentrate on a spot of the canvas until that spot starts dictating actions. In Religion, you concentrate on God until God start dictating actions. In the Constitution, you concentrate on the lowest common denominator, the American Citizen, and let him dictate actions.
Just like Mueller spelled it out, the ball is in the Democrat's court now, and they have to decide on what the best course of action is.
Nothing would go further in the Political Health of the United States more than a Book of Revelations in October 2020 announcing the 14 slam-dunk Criminal cases that Trump is facing when he leaves office. Throw in all those juicy tidbits Fatboy Barr edited out of the Mueller Report. Mitch McConnell is more guilty of obstruction than Trump, and a lot better at it. If the Democrats can get it together enough to expose the Trump Party (formerly known as the Republican Party) that their God is a fraud and a Criminal, maybe for one second the entire Country would understand that racism is a weakness, not a strength. Then we could go about healing the true weaknesses in the USA, and there are plenty of them.
384+ former Federal Prosecutors have gone on record saying they'd bring charges against President Trump if he weren't a sitting President. I can't wait to see how Fox News spins this.
Trump's response is that he needs 2 more years added on to his term to outrun the statute of limitations. Loyalty + Newspaper Headlines = Gullibility, every day makes Trump's base dumber and hickier.
Trump once said he could shoot somebody on the street in broad daylight and his base would still back him. Now the entire Republican Congress would look the other way. They say in politics, if you're digging yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING....unless of course 500 former DAs have said they'd bring 10 counts of Obstruction of Justice when you come out.
I'm getting the feeling that the actions are now getting trampled by the consequences, the Journalists on the News Networks aren't tiptoeing around it anymore, sorry Mitch McConnell, every day is going to be Groundhog Day for the next 18 months.
I guess this is what the World looks like when WWIII is not an option. I don't see any other possible description in the history books except for pathetic. Nothing matters now except for the 2020 election, and the by the book oversight of the Trump Carnival. Meanwhile... Trumps approval rating just rose to the highest it's ever been- 46% It's like a four four with a six eight on top of it...
Maybe Trump's 2020 Election mantra will go from "Make America Great Again" to "Please keep me out of Jail"
If this keeps up Republicans are going to get a bad name.
As bad as this all looks, in reality it's worse. If Trump doesn't answer for his crimes, we might as well put Bill Barr's face on the $20 bill.
I would not consider impeachment, to be off the table. In fact with Trump digging in and refusing to co-operate, this seems to put even more validity in the obstruction of justice case. I finally wrote my congress woman, a fairly lengthy letter, with my reasons for impeachment. The short version, is that we need to take a stand on the principle of Truth. And that it will payoff in the long run as, more people will be exposed to the evidence, of the seriousness of russia's actions. Secondly I brought up my idea that Trump's public statements, (including Twitter, be considered a part of an obstruction charge. Some believe that it cannot be done openly, but I feel that is not a valid argument, considering the public is now basically a 'party' to the issue of impeachment.Quote:
Originally Posted by buttslinger
Thirdly, I brought up a term, I heard on a broadcast, of Michael Isikoff, that Trump should be charged with "dereliction of duty", in regard to, protecting our elections from foreign intervention.
Nevermind the truth Yoda, did you catch my 4-4, 6-8 musical reference? That is the beat of the Grateful Dead song "That's it for the Other One" and I think what's going on now is you've got Democrats playing the judicious 4-4 and you've got Trump 6-8 craziness playing on top of it. The Music is drowning out the Lyrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by yodajazz
Of course you're right, Democrats need to be right, Republicans want to win. And I've heard talk that without impeachment proceedings, Schiff and Nadler's arguments lose weight. When 800 Prosecutors say Trump is a Criminal, what more do you need?
On the other hand, I've heard impeachment is exactly what Trump wants, because it would raise his favorability numbers like Bill Clinton and his gangbuster Economic Numbers. If it comes down to the Truth vs Nailing Trump, I want to nail Trump.
But if the past two years have taught us anything, it's that I have no idea what's going on. It sounds to me like Trump is going to face a mountain of charges after he leaves office. The Important thing is to get a Democratic President in, then we can investigate the Hell out of the entire pack of liars.
It's like the Army, there are rules for everything, and exceptions to every rule. Whatever gets a Democrat into the White House is the side of the coin I want to bet on. The truth right now is an awful thing. Four more years of Trump is inconceivable, I hate to repeat myself, but if Nixon had Fox News, Agnew would have been President, not Carter. The Democrats HAVE to be right.
Trump is on the road to hell and he won't be satisfied until everyone follows him. Ockham's Razor says Satan is behind this, Trump is too stupid to pull this off himself. A washed up billionaire can't get a dime from any American bank, so the nation hands him the keys to Ft Knox.
Every so often a Judge or Prosecutor explains it all clearly and truly: the fault falls on Trump and his former Republicans. But MSNBC Journalists come off as bickering children when they say the same thing. If Trump offered to walk away now for no prosecution, I'd say no, he needs to pay.
What is nobler in the mind of man, rising above the fray, or charging in to save the day?
ya.. Satan playing it's part for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by buttslinger
Trump is on the road to hell and he won't be satisfied until everyone follows him. Wait a minute, this is last week's post. Today is "I dare you to Impeach me" day. Time for the Democrats to huddle up yet again and win this game in the second half. I think it's a safe bet to speculate that there is plenty of "there" there, it would be hard to imagine a wild claim against Trump that didn't come true. Go for it, Nancy.
Face the fact, Buttslinger, the American poliical system has either been put into abeyance, or is in the process of being dismantled. Barr claims to be Attorney General of the USA but is in fact just another shit-eating, spew-babbling tRumpMonkey, who, along with President Dopey Donald, Mitchell McConnell and Lindsay Graham regard the Constitution of the USA as toilet paper, Congress a chamber pot of useless waffle-warriors who can be ignored most of the time, publicly insulted and abused as and when required.
God's President will not be denied, he must be adored, his will be obeyed, just as he now decides if I can or cannot buy a Huawei phone next year, so great is his power. He sits on the iron throne and will sit there for as long as he likes -what can you do about it when there is only one law, the law of Dopey Donald Targaryan, father of fireless dragons, first and last of his name, King of Vandals and the New Confederacy, God's chosen abortion-fascist, border-wall brickie and slayer of the seven freedoms.
Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
(Tagore)
I thought Samwell's little joke about "the people" choosing their leader fell flat on the GoT, but the facts are "the people" chose Donald Trump, and unless Putin really did fix voting machines then the USA is getting exactly what it deserves.
Remember the Republican Party Leaders wanted nothing to do with Trump, it was the voters that said they no longer wanted a Republican, they wanted a Fox News cartoon character, they wanted a response to Obama. They wanted a President they could fall in love with, and they have.
I think Pelosi sees that a unique opportunity has arisen, with one knockout punch to Trump, you take down the whole party. I'm pretty sure Trump laundered millions and millions of Oligarch dollars. If true, and it's leaked, there's no way to spin that. This week a couple Judges laughed the Republican lawyers out of the Courtroom. If Trump's two Supreme Court Stooges find Trump innocent, and then the truth about Trump surfaces the next week, all the better.
Of course this is a dangerous game.
If Trump loses the 2020 election, he'll die under investigation. If Trump wins, the Western World as we know it will die.
While Nixon was embroiled in the Watergate Scandal, he passed The Endangered Species Act, and a few other bills. Trump is a completely different animal. I do think he's cracking up. He may break before we get the pleasure of breaking him. If Trump is truly disgraced, will the Fox News crowd grow a conscience? Or will they blame the Democrats? Unknown.
I think the centerpoint of everything, whether one concedes that russia attacked, and that it was significant. in the recent words of Jared Kushner, "It was just a couple of Facebook posts." Trump has been consistent in evading russia's responsibility. And how could one investigate the start, including the Dossier, if it's central premise, is/was true? I see that investigation, as trying to string along the idea that, russia is innocent. That is why, I believe that impeachment, will put more evidence, out to the american public. And the fact that Trump did not lead the defense of the attack, says everything.
With Trump in the White House, The Rubes are dictating policy. They don't want to discuss Russia, because that's a losing hand. They want to talk about Judges and the Economy, where they are winning. One thing I remember from the GoT last episode was some guy discussing the power of THE STORY, and I think anybody who saw Trump in Helsinki knows there is a whale of a story going on there, and it's a mystery story, which makes it even more curiosity raising. More provocative.
Republicans are trying real hard to edit THE STORY, and they've been successful enough to send their donors two trillion "middle class" dollars, and 16 billion to farmers, to shut them up.
This AG Barr investigation of the investigators is an attempt to narrate the story, but like everything attached to the Trump administration, I can't understand that they don't understand how this is going to end. Like any good story, this one has lots of questions and possibilities. But REALITY owns the future, and if history is any judge, it's about time for Trump to lose. Actually, it might be better if we give Trump another year to drag the entire Republican Party down with him. They can come back in 17 years, like locusts.
The Mueller Report was limited by its intentions, and the fact that it was not Mueller's intention to recommend prosecution, which is someone else's job. Just as Bob Woodward in Fear declined to investigate the financial background of God's President, so the relationship with Felix Sater and the claim that the two men by selling real estate to 'certain Russians' were, in effect, laundering money from the Russian Mafia has not been part of the report yet provides the ingredients of the explanation for the odd relationship the Russians appear to have with the man David Frum has called America's No. 1 Liar. Add in the flows of 'lovely dollars' from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, and you find a President compromised by his financial connections long before he entered the White House, but who uses that Office to make even more money, while protecting the very people who by their actions would be in prison in America. And that is before the mystery of Deutsche Bank lending $2 billion to an American with close to a zero credit rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by yodajazz
It stinks.
And when the same President who joined the Russian campaign agaist the USA in 2016 now applauds the North Korean leader for insulting Joe Biden, you can ask: whose side is he on? Because it ain't the USA.
Buttslinger, you are sleepwalking through a revolution against the revolution, a civil war without the killing -so far. There is a revolution under way that is opposed to the American Revolution's separation of Church from State; just as the Civil War is being re-fought -I kid you not- in the name of Jesus in the South and the North-West, with Abortion its flaming spear. For this is what they say:Quote:
Originally Posted by buttslinger
One recent article profiles pastor, broadcaster and author Michael L Brown, who blames a “coming civil war” on “militant abortionists”. Brown told Charisma: “A civil war is coming to America, only this time, it will be abortion, rather than slavery, that divides the nation”.
An upcoming book from Brown also warns that abortion is among the signs that “the demonic spirit of Jezebel is powerful in America”. In another column this month Brown wrote: “A civil war is certain. The only thing to be determined is how bloody it will be.”
And this:
Earlier this month, the Guardian revealed that the Washington state republican legislator Matt Shea had also speculated about civil war, and the “Balkanization” of America, predicting that Christians would retreat to “zones of freedom” such as the inland Pacific north-west, where Shea is campaigning for a new state to break away from Washington.
Asked on a podcast if the two halves of the country could remain together, Shea said: “I don’t think we can, again, because you have half that want to follow the Lord and righteousness and half that don’t, and I don’t know how that can stand.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ar-predictions
I will leave you to ask how the defenders of a heartbeat (before the heart has even been formed) call it pro-life, even as they plot the 'end-of-life' to those who want to know what business it is for them if a person A decides to terminate a pregnancy.
Because the weirdos on the fringes are now in power, that is the difference. Jezebel is coming home!
Stavros,.... SUH......I have the blood of Robert E Lee flowing through my veins, and I don't need some "uppity" Limey telling me who I am. You don't even recognize Elvis as the one true King! How can I even talk to you!!???!!!
We can debate whether or not a garbageman is created equal with a Fortune 500 CEO, or if Cain killing Abel was murder or natural selection, but one thing we can't debate is that poor people suffer, and that suffering can manifest itself into ugliness pretty quick.
When Obama wondered why Republicans cling to their guns and religion, it was like talking about poor republicans. There are no poor republicans. There are WORKING Republicans. Working for shit wages at some shit job, in the wealthiest nation the world has ever seen. The same money that made Trump a high roller made being poor a criminal offense. In a fair system, who decides who mows lawns for a living?
It's no accident that Trump is the leader of the party that didn't go to College. What we learned last election was how many people in America not only didn't go to College, we learned how many gullible morons are running around free, nobody wants to admit that the problems of a nation need to be fixed one person at a time for a lifetime. Illusion is our friend. If people really knew how fucked everything really is, they would secede from the Union!
In business, when you fuck over your competitors, you win. In politics, for whatever reason, the losing party is bitter and resentful for four years, reminded constantly in the media. I think most leaders in either party understand that you have to lift the entire nation, not just half, but it's just like governing usually turns into deciding how to equally shortchange every institution because there will never be enough money, even in a country that has a pile of dough higher than any before it.
The truth was the truth when we were kids, and the truth is the truth now. It's understandable that Putin wants to stick it to the west, it's understandable that North Korea is un-understandable. Fixing it is not so easy to understand.
Trump will go down, after the damage is done, and eventually we'll get a leader that will make us see that a loaf of bread and a couple fish can feed thousands if you serve it right. But that leader too will come and go, and the poor wise people will be stuck with the knowledge that Wisdom is the only thing that lasts, and Wisdom and the World very rarely meet.
When the framers of the Constitution wrote up the Articles of Impeachment they could have put Trump's picture there, 100%.. but I'm not sure that the founding fathers would have believed that even in 250 years a black man could be President. Democracy is fucking scary, in a nation of fools. Trump should be impeached immediately, but the reality of the thing is not only would it fail because of the republican senators, it would prosecute the entire rural half of the country for the crime of being gullible hicks.
I have faith that Mueller has enough shit on Trump locked away that even Ivanka would want him to be arrested. While I am fumbling in the dark, and don't really know, I would have to say this is a good time for Dems to keep stacking their chips and let the Republicans keep investing in their traitorous manchild. That's called POLITICS, and the real war here is between Nancy and Mitch. McConnell is the one who needs to burn in Hell.
The Supreme Court should hear cases on gerrymandering and census rigging today or tomorrow, let's see if we're tired of WINNING yet.
Waves of Nausea
Waves of Nausea
Yes, it is nauseatiing, yes, it is offensive, and yes, the Confederacy loves it.
But -is the President really going to turn the 2020 election campaign into an existential crisis in which the USA is threatened by four women?
He clearly has a major problem with women in positions of power and authority (no problem with pretty girls 'some of them very young' he sees at parties) -but does this not also mean that he has written off the votes of American women, that he can sacrifice their vote and still win?
Maybe the election should not be about the threat to the USA posed by immigrants, but about Women: the majority of the population who have Rights, Needs and Wants.
The correct quote from Epstein's buddy should be-
"Trump called Epstein a “terrific guy” who was “a lot of fun to be with.” He added: “It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.” (The White House did not immediately respond to a request for comment.)"
If Steve Grooby gave me a billion imaginary internet dollars, the entire religion and politics section would become a handful of visitors demanding that I shut the fuck up, with me laughing at all you people. You look like ants to me. I actually used to use this tactic at work, while I was stealing thousands of dollars to spend on wine and women. I can't believe I pulled it off.
This week Nancy Pelosi called Trump a racist on the floor of the House. She had to call him a racist between the lines, because in the USA, you have to show respect for elected lawmakers, even reporters aren't allowed to call Trump a liar to his face. You have to respect the OFFICE, even if you don't respect the person holding it.
There is a 7-11 near my house that has the best BIG GULP machine ever, tomorrow the heat index in DC is going to be 110 degrees. As pathetic as it is that my poison is now a Super Big-Gulp, even worse are the apartments around the 7-11. Poor whites, poor Blacks, poor Immigrants of every size and shape. Lots of babies. Beggars fight for prime locations.
I'm hearing that Bill Barr is putting his hand in the cookie jar, and that cookie jar is the Southern District of New York where Mueller sent all those cases against Trump that didn't fall under the Russia parameter. It looks like cases against Trump are disappearing behind closed doors.
Even if Trump faces Justice, we will still have Mitch McConnell, we will still have millions of poor rednecks, and millions of poor immigrants. I guess the USA is just another Pyramid Scheme.
They unsealed some Cohen documents that cast a real bad light on Trump and Hope Hicks, and Trump's pedophile buddy might be pressured to sing about earlier carefree days with THE DONALD.
But I'm really feeling like not only has the damage been done, Trump is just the first glaring sign that the West is on a downward spiral. China has more people than the US and Europe combined, and they all consider themselves Chinese. Westerners who visit there every two years say each new visit finds a new high speed train or hand-built island or a brand new electronics hub. It's exciting to be there.
I'm wondering why Donald Drumpf should not be the one who should go back to where he (or his ancestors) came from. He clearly must hate the USA given his determination to trash the constitution and everything else he inherited from his predecessors. Of course the Germans would probably not let him in because of his record of promoting racial bigotry.
I think one thing that has becoming increasingly clear is that the real reason the Republican establishment were opposed to Trump initially was not that he's ignorant, a compulsive liar, a bigot, a sexual predator or a narcissist with authoritarian tendencies. It was that they were worried that he was serious about his populist rhetoric about helping the working class. Once they realised that was all talk and Trump was not going to get in the way of their plutocratic agenda they were quite happy to let him have his way on everything else, especially as the Trump Show provides a useful distraction. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...e-collar-crime
I think the Republicans shit their pants when Trump first mentioned THE WALL and Mexican rapists and murderers. He gave away the secret sauce. And now the Party is going to pay for it.
Of course Individual Retirement Investments are better than heroin.
Dems better be careful if they plan to run on a Anti-Racist Platform.
Guns and Racism. Hitler never stood a chance.
As much as I like to clown and play games, Donald Trump is no joke, cancer causing pesticides are now legal again, corporations are raping and murdering the environment, Bill Barr is "disappearing" court cases against Trump in New York, murderous regimes across the globe are getting a wink, education is being sold off, every day is a new outrage. Everyone in the World who thought of the US Govt. as a criminal enterprise are now right.
Somebody is going to pay for all this, and unless Bernie is elected, it's going to be all of us who pay.