An outsider watching the US health care debate

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To many liberals, Patriotism means allegiance to the goals and principals of the American left, which often run counter to, and plot the demise of America as a sovereign nation.

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???!!

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Originally Posted by slip969

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by rocko

so if you did not pay for the care, who did?

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Oh you. I see what you did there. Yes I did pay for a portion with my taxes. But I'd rather pay a portion in taxes than paying $800+. And then everyone gets to take advantage of it. Good idea no?

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So let me get this straight. It's alright for someone who has to bust their ass every day at work to pay for health care for people who don't work, collect welfare (<-- already an awesome example) and let corrupt government agencies decide that I'm just not working hard enough and crack the whip to take more taxes out of me? No thank you!

I'll gladly pay for my poison ivy treatments myself, choose my doctor and hell... probably pay less then the taxes they are going to take from me anyways.

Basically, under Obama's regime... the more you work, the more your punished. Fuck, maybe that's the idea... let me get fat, clog my arteries, pop out 2 and 1/2 kids and never work again. I'll be taken care of by my savior Mr. Obama... Awesome!

Fuck that fascist pig in the face.

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Under your assumption everyone should be working, there should be 100% unemployment. What rose coloured glass world do you live in? The idea of social healthcare is to provide for a nations people when they can't.

A person is shot or has a broken leg...whatever. Goes into a hospital but doesn't have insurance. Do you toss him out on the street? By your view, I'm assuming you would.

Any healthcare system should be based on the concept of the healthy paying for the sick. Anything else is simply inhuman.

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Originally Posted by archineer

Any healthcare system should be based on the concept of the healthy paying for the sick. Anything else is simply inhuman.

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I don't quite understand that. Should we be getting advice from the British on healthcare anyway?

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Originally Posted by TommyFoxtrot

Patriotism=Jingoism to many liberals. To many liberals, Patriotism means allegiance to the goals and principals of the American left, which often run counter to, and plot the demise of America as a sovereign nation. It's not even really that well hidden.

Obviously, this is all coming from a right winger (or to be more honest, someone who distrusts the left more than he loves the right) but this is the way I see it.

I would also put qualifiers on them reading history-it doesn't need to be stated that liberal apologists and conservative apologists often have a vastly different view of history. Defining language and controlling semantics has been a halmark of the left since Marx. This is absolutely irrefutable. It was immediately recognized to be a main tool of the left.

Political Correctness, that started with the modern left. Liberals got a taste of it after 9/11, till about 2004, but think of what conservatives or libertarians have gone through all these years.

When liberals rant about Fox, they should really just pity non-liberals. Fox is the only real tool they have on network television. Look at talk radio. How did they take a dead format and make it into a powerhouse? Because non-liberals had nowhere else to go.

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This is a textbook example of why I gave up trying to engage in substantive debate in Internet forums. The poster plainly has no idea whatsoever what "many liberals" think, nor a very well developed understanding of what liberalism even is. The entire post is utterly meaningless from either a policy or a philosophical/ideological perspective.

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Originally Posted by TommyFoxtrot

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Originally Posted by archineer

Any healthcare system should be based on the concept of the healthy paying for the sick. Anything else is simply inhuman.

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I don't quite understand that. Should we be getting advice from the British on healthcare anyway?

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Seriously? What don't you get?

A friend of mine has a nice saying that explains some of the political situation to me.

A progressive has to say right from the start he could be wrong. It is inherent in believing there is always another better way. A conservative never has to say he's wrong, because what he believes in is already proven to work enough for him.

On the healthy having to pay for the sick... um yeah. We've tried the personal responsibility thing where we expect all people to prepare for the worst, but the reality of the world is that no one person can prepare sufficiently for random illness or disaster on anything but the highest salaries. The only way to handle disaster and illness is to all pay into some pool for dealing with these relatively rare events when they strike the unlucky few.

Who at 20 has the means to deal with cancer or a kidney failure? At 30? How about at 63? We're talking access to hundreds of thousands of dollars, above and beyond all other needs.

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Originally Posted by thombergeron

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Originally Posted by TommyFoxtrot

Patriotism=Jingoism to many liberals. To many liberals, Patriotism means allegiance to the goals and principals of the American left, which often run counter to, and plot the demise of America as a sovereign nation. It's not even really that well hidden.

Obviously, this is all coming from a right winger (or to be more honest, someone who distrusts the left more than he loves the right) but this is the way I see it.

I would also put qualifiers on them reading history-it doesn't need to be stated that liberal apologists and conservative apologists often have a vastly different view of history. Defining language and controlling semantics has been a halmark of the left since Marx. This is absolutely irrefutable. It was immediately recognized to be a main tool of the left.

Political Correctness, that started with the modern left. Liberals got a taste of it after 9/11, till about 2004, but think of what conservatives or libertarians have gone through all these years.

When liberals rant about Fox, they should really just pity non-liberals. Fox is the only real tool they have on network television. Look at talk radio. How did they take a dead format and make it into a powerhouse? Because non-liberals had nowhere else to go.

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This is a textbook example of why I gave up trying to engage in substantive debate in Internet forums. The poster plainly has no idea whatsoever what "many liberals" think, nor a very well developed understanding of what liberalism even is. The entire post is utterly meaningless from either a policy or a philosophical/ideological perspective.

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First off, tell us what is wrong with his comment. There is no learning if what is incorrect isn't pointed out.

Secondly, where were you while Trish was giving her distorted views of conservatives?

The "liberal" vs "conservative" divide in the USA is pretty interesting. I tend to side with the liberal side, but I listen a lot to the conservatives and appreciate the ideas of self-reliance and the inefficiency of government for solving problems. On the other hand, I feel strongly that much of the social progress we've made in US history is due to active government and would not have happened otherwise.

One of my conservative friends pointed out that the percentage of people who don't pay taxes is fast approaching a majority. He worries that when that happens the impoverished majority can tax the hell out of the wealthy minority. Here democracy may become a kind of tyranny.

One of the great problems in the USA is the deep divide between rich and poor. I'm not sure, but I bet this divide is much worse here than in other industrialized countries, and it's due to our legacy of immigration (illegals, impoverished, and slaves) -- a legacy other countries don't have to the same degree. Therefore you cannot compare the societies: what works in one country might not work in the USA.

There is a danger that if we socialize everything we simply cannot pay for it. Consider that we are already borrowing at an enormous and unsustainable rate. The entire economic system in the USA could become unstable and collapse. Indeed some think this is already starting to happen.

It's great to have liberal ideals -- but you need a workable plan and someone has to PAY for it. Clever ideas are very welcome. Dreamy ideals with no plan are not useful.

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Originally Posted by MrF

The "liberal" vs "conservative" divide in the USA is pretty interesting. I tend to side with the liberal side, but I listen a lot to the conservatives and appreciate the ideas of self-reliance and the inefficiency of government for solving problems. On the other hand, I feel strongly that much of the social progress we've made in US history is due to active government and would not have happened otherwise.

One of my conservative friends pointed out that the percentage of people who don't pay taxes is fast approaching a majority. He worries that when that happens the impoverished majority can tax the hell out of the wealthy minority. Here democracy may become a kind of tyranny.

One of the great problems in the USA is the deep divide between rich and poor. I'm not sure, but I bet this divide is much worse here than in other industrialized countries, and it's due to our legacy of immigration (illegals, impoverished, and slaves) -- a legacy other countries don't have to the same degree. Therefore you cannot compare the societies: what works in one country might not work in the USA.

There is a danger that if we socialize everything we simply cannot pay for it. Consider that we are already borrowing at an enormous and unsustainable rate. The entire economic system in the USA could become unstable and collapse. Indeed some think this is already starting to happen.

It's great to have liberal ideals -- but you need a workable plan and someone has to PAY for it. Clever ideas are very welcome. Dreamy ideals with no plan are not useful.

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Debt and insolvecy are the result of fractional reserve banking and the fact that money is created through the issuing of bank loans. If it was created through public works spending this wouldn't be a problem.