Cliven Bundy

I'm sorry you're so naive that you just realized that when a person flouts court orders over a twenty year period of time and there is a 16 year old permanent injunction against his use of federal land, that they might be confronted by armed federal agents. They had a right to seize his cattle. In fact if anything is embarrassing it's that the federal government ended up backing down because they did not want to use enough force to prevent continued violations.

He may be a 70 year old man, but you put a gun in his hands and he's as dangerous as any other person with a gun who doesn't respect laws and violates court orders. It's amazing to me that anyone would expect the federal government to continue to allow violations of federal regulations. Or to allow someone to ignore a permanent injunction against land use and continue to use the land illegally. Eventually force needs to be used.

It's too bad that your heroes showed what they're all about.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

I'm sorry you're so naive that you just realized that when a person flouts court orders over a twenty year period of time and there is a 16 year old permanent injunction against his use of federal land, that they might be confronted by armed federal agents. They had a right to seize his cattle. In fact if anything is embarrassing it's that the federal government ended up backing down because they did not want to use enough force to prevent continued violations.

He may be a 70 year old man, but you put a gun in his hands and he's as dangerous as any other person with a gun who doesn't respect laws and violates court orders. It's amazing to me that anyone would expect the federal government to continue to allow violations of federal regulations. Or to allow someone to ignore a permanent injunction against land use and continue to use the land illegally. Eventually force needs to be used.

It's too bad that your heroes showed what they're all about.

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Once again, you are ignoring the facts of the situation. They have sent in less force on multiple potentially armed people for worse offenses. It was a gross display of government use of violent force in a minor issue. They could have sent in a dozen officers to knock on his door, conduct a typical warranted raid, like any other situation and arrested him.

Instead they put snipers all around his property and sent in 200 feds with combat rifles. This was a nothing issue that could have been dealt with in a simple, easy and undramatic manner.

Now you try to blame the militia and Oath Keepers groups for being "domestic terrorists" and condemn their reaction to an army of feds threatening overwhelming violent force against a senior citizen.

I am not sure whether violating federal land use regulations are incarcerable offenses so arresting him doesn't achieve the purpose of the injunction as well as seizing his cattle does. When the courts held that he was violating the regulations they ordered him to pay for past violations. But an injunction is forward looking. It doesn't punish him for past actions but says, "what we've already punished you for doing needs to stop."

What kind of government would we have if it couldn't even enforce an injunction? A completely toothless government. This may surprise you but law enforcement officers carry guns. When they enforce laws they also have those guns with them. You say there were a lot of officers and a lot of guns? Well, the man is still alive, and still ignorant. I don't know why officers of the law have to deal with a continuing series of violations with kid gloves. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Nobody in his family was shot however many guns were present. His legal arguments had no basis. And the government had a right to seize his cattle.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

I am not sure whether violating federal land use regulations are incarcerable offenses so arresting him doesn't achieve the purpose of the injunction as well as seizing his cattle does. When the courts held that he was violating the regulations they ordered him to pay for past violations. But an injunction is forward looking. It doesn't punish him for past actions but says, "what we've already punished you for doing needs to stop."

What kind of government would we have if it couldn't even enforce an injunction? A completely toothless government. This may surprise you but law enforcement officers carry guns. When they enforce laws they also have those guns with them. You say there were a lot of officers and a lot of guns? Well, the man is still alive, and still ignorant. I don't know why officers of the law have to deal with a continuing series of violations with kid gloves. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Nobody in his family was shot however many guns were present. His legal arguments had no basis. And the government had a right to seize his cattle.

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Don't try to be a condescending dick.

Also this:

New York Times Gets Blown The Fuck Out; Caught Falsifying and Editing Footage

American mainstream media is at it again. Editing footage and displaying to the world in a manner to make statements appear biased to support the federal government agenda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

The real video of Cliven Bundy discussing federal government bureaucracy and its effects on hardworking Americans. (Including the section about African Americans) And the cut off ending about hardworking Mexican immigrants.

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Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Don't try to be a condescending dick.

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I'm not trying to be. The use of sarcasm wasn't to insult you. I am just saying I don't think it's unexpected. You say the militia men only came after the government started using force. Well you have to admit that militia men might be the types to jump the gun and assume the government is using unjustified force when it's not.

The government was taking an aggressive posture to enforce its laws because that's what they have to do or nobody would follow laws.It's very self-fulfilling all of it. Militia men don't recognize the legitimacy of the government. But the government takes the position that it is legitimate. And when they use force to enforce their laws, they are acting within power that has been vested in them. If people show up with guns to oppose lawful government action of course it escalates the situation. The only way to de-escalate it would be for Cliven Bundy to conform his conduct to the law.

Cliven Bundy responds to NY Times' allegations of racism. Stands beside black community, mentions notable black militaman still at his house providing defense and security.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCJ59tls0vc

Breaking News: Racist Claims He Isn't Racist. Other Racists Agree!

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Originally Posted by trish

Breaking News: Racist Claims He Isn't Racist. Other Racists Agree!

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Yes. So racist, that he stands arm in arm with the black folks defending his family! Please, try again.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/08...eli-bodyguard/

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Originally Posted by broncofan

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/08...eli-bodyguard/

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Herp derp, we're gonna derail the facts with Hollywood bullshit about Mel Gibson and Jews.

Either watch the full videos of Cliven Bundy's "racist" speech and his interview responding to the NY Times and CNN's chopped up, edited and fabricated versions of that video or stop posting nonsense.

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Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Herp derp, we're gonna derail the facts with Hollywood bullshit about Mel Gibson and Jews.

Either watch the full videos of Cliven Bundy's "racist" speech and his interview responding to the NY Times and CNN's chopped up, edited and fabricated versions of that video or stop posting nonsense.

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It's actually an analogy, unlike the distractions you posted several pages ago. If having a friend or trusted confidante of a particular background means someone isn't a bigot then Mel Gibson is a friend of the Jews.

Cliven Bundy is a friend of the African-American community because he hugged a black man. So he could not be racist, despite the fact that he said African-Americans were better off as slaves.

I watched the video you posted of full controversial remarks. I haven't changed my view of his comments or prior actions.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

It's actually an analogy, unlike the distractions you posted several pages ago. If having a friend or trusted confidante of a particular background means someone isn't a bigot then Mel Gibson is a friend of the Jews.

Cliven Bundy is a friend of the African-American community because he hugged a black man. So he could not be racist, despite the fact that he said African-Americans were better off as slaves.

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Actually, that wasn't even what he said. That is the NY Times edited version of his statements. He also clarified what he was trying to say during the interview with Alex Jones. But go ahead and keep believing everything the news tells you.

To prove I watched your video, I'm going to re-post it. Now watch and listen to what he says between 1:30 and 2:00 minutes in. He asks are African-Americans better off on government subsidies than they were as slaves picking cotton. It's right there in the video. Start earlier if you want the full context. It does nothing to mitigate what he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

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Originally Posted by broncofan

To prove I watched your video, I'm going to re-post it. Now watch and listen to what he says between 1:30 and 2:00 minutes in. He asks are African-Americans better off on government subsidies than they were as slaves picking cotton. It's right there in the video. Start earlier if you want the full context. It does nothing to mitigate what he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

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Well, it's on you to ignore FBI crime and CDC poverty statistics on the average African American in the United States. That is what he is referring to. At no point does he say blacks should be slaves. He is questioning the current cultural situation that is statistically shown in every government and science report and journal regarding blacks in the United States. You also need to watch the second video, where Cliven discusses what he was trying to convey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCJ59tls0vc

He only wonders to himself whether negros would be better off as slaves. He's not racist, he got a negro friend. This is so cliche it could be a joke. Oh wait. It is.

There has to be something wrong when a cranky gobshite like him can become a hero.

Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slimballs to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?

Truly scarey - a racist thief like Bundy gets to be a hero and attracts scores of armed nutcases prepared to kill because of their visceral hatred of the US Government.

Parts of your country long since went insane,

A good and funny take on it from The Daily Show.

Jon Stewart Tears into Sean Hannity for Cliven Bundy Hypocrisy: 'Who Is on This Guy's Side?' - YouTube

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Originally Posted by trish

Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slimballs to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?

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You're implying the protesters and militia are Nazis, Klansmen and psychopaths. There is nothing more biased and ignorant going on than what you just spouted in your half-assed MSNBC style rhetoric. At no point have I seen any Nazi flags flying at Bundy Ranch. At no point does anyone scream Heil Hitler. And surely, you would be a total idiot to say they are all white supremacists. Your throwing around of race cards is typical of mainstream media to detract from the real issue. The moment you are getting wrecked in a debate, screaming out "RACISM" is your last resort. This has nothing to do with race. This has to do with 200 heavily armed federal agents pointing military combat weapons at a rural family, including children and women to enforce a bureaucratic bullshit grass eating law.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Truly scarey - a racist thief like Bundy gets to be a hero and attracts scores of armed nutcases prepared to kill because of their visceral hatred of the US Government.

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We have guns because of you British tyrants. It isn't surprising that you guys across the ocean still rant and rave against American Constitutional freedoms and its exercise by law abiding citizens. Please, take Piers Morgan back, keep your Monarchy and enjoy your lack of sovereign human rights. Your cesspool of ultraliberalist dystopia should stay on your continent.

We Americans prefer to speak our mind freely, tell our corrupt government to suck our dicks whenever we want without fear of retaliation and defend our lives from violent police aggression. Essentially those are the First and Second Amendments in a gist. Something you don't have.

They were prepared to kill. Of course they were. That's what makes them patriots and heroes. They were the first line of defense if the BLM was to fire off a round. They were there to keep that family safe from a brutal Waco style massacre. That is exactly why nothing did happen, and exactly why the Feds backed down. The militia did their jobs professionally and effectively without a shot fired. Their presence warded off a tyrannical and disgusting display of excessive force against a 70 year old man and his family. If they were nutcases, blood would have been shed. These patriots were well organized and did a damn good job.

Old and young, black and white, they stand for justice and security. This is a photo of American freedom. When the government comes to kill you for feeding your cows grass, I'm damn proud knowing people are willing to lay down their lives for their fellow Americans in defense.

http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.ht....tumblr.com%2F

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Originally Posted by Turlington

http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.ht....tumblr.com%2F

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Actually posting a CNN interview with Bundy after they sliced and diced the alleged "racist rant" clip to make him look like a racist to begin with despite evidence to the contrary in the original video? You're a little late to the party.

VIDEO: Cliven Bundy's Racist Remarks - YouTube

Interesting. The deepening divide in the US between the "grassroots' and the "liberal establishment' with the former here represented with great anger by our TS ladyfriend from New York. There is obviously a deep wellspring of hatred for Washington among many ordinary people. But perhaps the Tea Party and their ilk are looking at the wrong enemy. Perhaps they should be looking at big business instead - people like the Koch brothers - who fund he radical right to mobilise them against any limits on the greed and bad behaviour of the capitalists in the US (and the same picture is true in the wider world0. They tap into prejudice, like that nakedly revealed by this absurd and ignorant Bundy character, and the fear of some ordinary people, to turn their ire against the government - especially a government run by the Democrats. The notion of aspiring to achieve a more equal, air and just society is being turned on its head by the clever machinations of those with huge budgets to spend to pervert democracy and stir up grassroots hatred. Sinister times.

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Originally Posted by Turlington

VIDEO: Cliven Bundy's Racist Remarks - YouTube

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Yea... no. That is a chopped up, fabricated version of the full video.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

Breaking News: Cliven Bundy's black militia body guard speaks out against claims of racism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu_YKgGRFZ8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PdBBdCRWq8 (skip to 2:20 for the interview)

Get real Kitty and confront the real enemy... the religious right and their funders. And please don't parade your profound ignorance about the UK again. It diminishes your own case.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Interesting. The deepening divide in the US between the "grassroots' and the "liberal establishment' with the former here represented with great anger by our TS ladyfriend from New York. There is obviously a deep wellspring of hatred for Washington among many ordinary people. But perhaps the Tea Party and their ilk are looking at the wrong enemy. Perhaps they should be looking at big business instead - people like the Koch brothers - who fund he radical right to mobilise them against any limits on the greed and bad behaviour of the capitalists in the US (and the same picture is true in the wider world0. They tap into prejudice, like that nakedly revealed by this absurd and ignorant Bundy character, and the fear of some ordinary people, to turn their ire against the government - especially a government run by the Democrats. The notion of aspiring to achieve a more equal, air and just society is being turned on its head by the clever machinations of those with huge budgets to spend to pervert democracy and stir up grassroots hatred. Sinister times.

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The hatred is valid and is vented towards a multitude of those to blame. It is not just lobbyists themselves like the Koch Brothers. It is also corrupt politicians and judges who accept bribes and private backroom deals with corporate entities to vote on bills in their favor. It is scum like Senator Harry Reid and Senator Dianne Feinstein who conspire with corporations to introduce or vote for or against legislation to promote the agendas of corporations in exchange for shares in stock or financial support. Our government is flooded with corrupt and self-serving politicians who no longer represent the People who elected them. They serve only those who bid the highest price and won. Our economy is ruled by CEO banking industry bureaucrats in the Federal Reserve, who have brought our nation to ruin and conspirators like Dick Cheney and Halliburton have sent our sons and daughters to die in senseless wars based on lies to make a profit on defense technology and oil. Now these same tyrannical liars and deceivers have declared a state of war with the American populous. They spy on our communications without warrant. They promote propaganda and lies through the media, which is owed by the same scum who bought off the elections. They are trying to disarm us, standing on the graves of dead children and screaming weapons of war do not belong on our streets, while funding foreign terrorist groups to overthrow enemy governments. And then they subsidize thousands of used Iraq War MRAP tanks to local police departments and increase the power, authority and overreach of the Department of Homeland Security to protect the country from the new threat of "domestic terrorists". Drones over our own skies, police driving mine resistant tanks and everyday officers with combat rifles, yet we claim everything is okay. No, it's not the government that is breaking the law. It is not the government that is being excessive and surely is not being violent. It's the hardworking Americans like Cliven Bundy being made out to be terrorists and racists despite facts. Pay those fees citizen or we'll come and murder your family.

George Washington would have declared war over ten years ago if he was here today. George Orwell would be shitting himself. And Adolf Hitler would be busting in his pants if he had what the U.S. has today to control the population.

This is the future you all chose. And sadly, you all support and condone.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Get real Kitty and confront the real enemy... the religious right and their funders. And please don't parade your profound ignorance about the UK again. It diminishes your own case.

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You shouldn't make ignorant statements about American gun owners either. "Armed nutcases". It makes you look just as bad... well, only to intelligent people.

The religious right and their funders are not the only problem. Do you really believe that the far left and their funders are any better than the radical religious groups? Most people seem to only view the world in red and blue. The liberals versus the conservatives. Democrats versus Republicans. One is better than the other, blah blah blah. You all forget that both sides are liars, cheats, corrupt and do not have any interest in actually fixing anything. They both scream at each other over the little things to distract the voters with BS like abortion, guns and gay rights, while they all agree to devastate the economy and cheat the American public.

Cliven Bundy Accidentally Explained What’s Wrong With the Republican Party

On Saturday, Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who has risen to prominence because of his dispute with the Bureau of Land Management, held forth about “the Negro,” and how black people may have been better off under slavery than in President Obama’s America.

When I read Adam Nagourney’s piece in The New York Times about the remarks, my first thought was: How did Mr. Bundy even get on this topic? It turns out, Mr. Bundy’s mind ran to the condition of black Americans because the activists who have flocked to his ranch to defend his right not to pay grazing fees are almost all white.

The Washington Post obtained video of his remarks and it quotes him: “Where is our colored brother? Where is our Mexican brother? Where is our Chinese? Where are they? They’re just as much American as we are, and they’re not with us. If they’re not with us, they’re going to be against us.”

Mr. Bundy, weirdly, is onto something here. The rush to stand with Mr. Bundy against the Bureau of Land Management is the latest incarnation of conservative antigovernment messaging. And nonwhites are not interested, because a gut-level aversion to the government is almost exclusively a white phenomenon.

A 2011 National Journal poll found that 42 percent of white respondents agreed with the statement, “Government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem.” Just 17 percent of blacks, 16 percent of Asians and 25 percent of Hispanics agreed. In 2011 and 2012, the Pew Research Center found that 55 percent of Asian-Americans and fully 75 percent of Hispanic-Americans say they prefer a bigger government providing more services over a smaller one providing fewer services, compared with just 41 percent of the general population.

Conservatives often talk about Republican underperformance with minorities in economic terms: Minority voters with lower incomes tend to see themselves as benefiting from government programs. Or they blame the underperformance on loose-cannon Republican politicians who make offensive statements, as with Representative Don Young, of Alaska, talking about “wetbacks” or Representative Steve King, of Iowa, warning that the Dream Act would give citizenship to drug smugglers with “calves the sizes of cantaloupes.

Those problems are real, but Republicans’ biggest problem with minorities runs even deeper than economic disparities and racist gaffes. Asian-American voters broke nearly 3-to-1 against Mitt Romney in 2012, even though they have higher median family incomes and higher average educational attainment than whites. Economic prosperity alone will not make racial minorities eager for antigovernment language.

In 2012, when I attended the Republican National Convention, there was one phrase I heard over and over again: “You built it!” Republicans thought this was a clever rejoinder to President Obama’s comments that people should be thankful for the role that government plays in individual success. The comeback was not the blockbuster Republicans thought it would be, because America is not the overwhelmingly white country it once was.

Cliven Bundy gets that. Will Republicans?

Phew... the world and its wife are all in one big conspiracy - and only the militias know the answers. Obama is worst than Hitler by Kitti's reckoning. And of course those nice folk with their guns would welcome a transsexual like Kitty into their ranks, wouldn't they. They'd shoot or lynch her actually...

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Phew... the world and its wife are all in one big conspiracy - and only the militias know the answers. Obama is worst than Hitler by Kitti's reckoning. And of course those nice folk with their guns would welcome a transsexual like Kitty into their ranks, wouldn't they. They'd shoot or lynch her actually...

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Because all gun owners are KKK murderers who seek to hang trannies. Stop being a complete dipshit.

I never said Obama was worse than Hitler. Nice try at twisting my comments and adding a crap ton of other words into it. In fact, I never even mentioned Obama.

It is disgusting and unbelievable in this day and age we have morons like you and half the other users in this thread making the absurd, offensive and reverse-racist comments and lies here. Based on every post I've seen from you people, the common view of American gun owners and white people is:

*All whites are racist
*All gun owners are inbred retards and terrorists
*All gun owners are Nazis and murderers
*Anyone who doesn't agree with the federal government is a nutcase conspiracy theorist and a terrorist
*All conservatives are racist Nazis who would kill people
*Condemning government violence is wrong
*Disagreeing with the government is insane

I'm happy at least the majority of your fools live in Britardistan and not here.

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You're implying the protesters and militia are Nazis, Klansmen and psychopaths.

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No you are. I said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”

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At no point have I seen any Nazi flags flying at Bundy Ranch. At no point does anyone scream Heil Hitler.

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And at no point did I say Cliven and his white supremacist friends Nazis.

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And surely, you would be a total idiot to say they are all white supremacists.

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I’m sure you can find at least one or two who would deny it.

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Your throwing around of race cards is typical of mainstream media to detract from the real issue.

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Oh, now I’m the mainstream media? Thanks for the promotion.

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The moment you are getting wrecked in a debate, screaming out "RACISM" is your last resort. This has nothing to do with race. This has to do with 200 heavily armed federal agents pointing military combat weapons at a rural family, including children and women to enforce a bureaucratic bullshit grass eating law.

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Originally it was about the Federal government attempting to protect an endangered species (just stating the facts, Ma'am...I personally don’t give a shit about tortoises) by re-allocating use of its own land...not Cliven Bundy’s land. Then it was about Cliven illegally grazing his cattle for free on that land. Then it was about the BLM impounding his cattle. Then it was about the white supremacist gun loonies around the nation screaming WACO WACO WACO. Situations evolve. Now it’s about racism. Hey, I didn’t pull the race card (I’m all out of them). Neither did the media. It was the town idiot who brought up the issue of race. It was Cliven Bundy himself who brought it up in his daily radio hour. And his posse comitatus crowd cheered.

Kaiti's right, Cliven didn’t literally say, “I believe African-Americans would be better off if they were slaves.” He merely wonders whether they might be better off as slaves, like their happy ancestors were. You know with their families and such, and having something to do...like pickin’ cotton. Never mind that you have to be a moron to believe that a people would be better off under slavery. Never mind that you can’t really call yourself a freedom-lover and at the same time question whether or not slavery might actually be good for some people. Never mind the extent of Cliven’s ignorance as to what slavery in the south was like. In spite of all that, one has to concede that on this particular occasion Cliven didn’t literally endorse slavery. He only wondered about it.

Cliven, however, did literally aver that the negro today has abortions because they (the negro) never learned to pick cotton. But I’m sure Cliven didn’t mean that literally. Substitute “sweep floors” or “shovel shit” for “pick cotton” and I’m sure Cliven would be fine with it.

Cliven did say that he doesn’t recognize the U.S. government. He said that it doesn’t exist. Literally. But then again, I’m sure he didn’t mean it literally. After all, he rides around on horseback in front of a camera carrying a huge American flag. And he does seem to put a lot of stock in the green stuff the U.S. government mints. And his welfare cows seem to love the green stuff that grows on Federally owned lands. You can’t put too much stock in what Cliven literally says, because...you know...he’s a simple man...and he ain’t too good with words.

So when Cliven says, “...I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things...”, I know you can’t put a lot of stock in the literal meaning of the statement. It’s the spirit of the thing that counts.

KittyKaiti wrote: "And Adolf Hitler would be busting in his pants if he had what the U.S. has today to control the population. "

I see this as a direct referenceto the people in power in Washington ... or are you excepting the president?

I did not ay anywhere that all people with gun are racist. I said that the sort of people who you praise are the sort whose prejudice 9along with Mr Bundy's attitudes to Black folk) probably also have a similar dislike of other minorities - Muslims, Gays, the transgendered. Please offer me some evidence that these brave little men of the militias with their gun obsession love girls like you? You despite liberal values - yet in the more liberal parts of america benefit from them. Outside of these areas girls like you would stand a good chance of being lynched... especially if you were also black.

Your aggression in your posts displays pretty strong xenophobic strand I'm afraid with your absurd remarks about britain - and Europe.

Oh and I see in your response to Trish you mention the feds pointing their guns at women and children. I have also seen a clip where one of the brave militiamen said they'd put the girls out front - as a "human shield" so that if the shooting starts the news cameras would show the feds gunning down women. Very Saddam that one...

I wonder if Kitti is auditioning for a job with Fox? or as a shockjock?

Do you enjoy Fox, Kitty - that big network owned by one of the world's most successful media barons who will align his media empire sides with whichever regime he needs to in order to sustain his revenue flow?

The issue has evolved from one about whether the federal government had any right to charge grazing fees on government land, to whether the courts were right to issue an injunction against Bundy, to whether the government used too much force in seizing Bundy's cattle, to whether Bundy is a racist.

The people who supported Bundy like Sean Hannity knew better than to defend him once news of his most recent comments were published. The only question is what stop each of his defenders chose to exit the crazy train at. There was never a single issue to defend.

The government waited too long to take action against Bundy. They did not use the force necessary to do what a court said they had a right to do. They did not prevent Bundy from continue to break the law.

And who is this rancher patriot they were defending? Someone who thinks African-Americans had a family life under slavery. What is most appalling about his analogy is that he seems to have no conception of what life must have been like under our system of slavery. I don't know personally or viscerally what it must have been like, but I know there's just about nothing worse than a system where people are chattel and used as personal property.

It's time to exit this train Kitty. There will be other issues and other people with some scrap of decency to defend. Bundy's not that guy.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

KittyKaiti wrote: "And Adolf Hitler would be busting in his pants if he had what the U.S. has today to control the population. "

I see this as a direct referenceto the people in power in Washington ... or are you excepting the president?

I did not ay anywhere that all people with gun are racist. I said that the sort of people who you praise are the sort whose prejudice 9along with Mr Bundy's attitudes to Black folk) probably also have a similar dislike of other minorities - Muslims, Gays, the transgendered. Please offer me some evidence that these brave little men of the militias with their gun obsession love girls like you? You despite liberal values - yet in the more liberal parts of america benefit from them. Outside of these areas girls like you would stand a good chance of being lynched... especially if you were also black.

Your aggression in your posts displays pretty strong xenophobic strand I'm afraid with your absurd remarks about britain - and Europe.

Oh and I see in your response to Trish you mention the feds pointing their guns at women and children. I have also seen a clip where one of the brave militiamen said they'd put the girls out front - as a "human shield" so that if the shooting starts the news cameras would show the feds gunning down women. Very Saddam that one...

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First things first. The militia that went to defend the Bundy Ranch belong to and was organized by the Oath Keepers. You can read all about their beliefs and standings as patriotic defenders of the Republic here: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/about/

Their website has a cool section regarding their stances on discrimination, "We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation." Suck it.

One dumb retired Sheriff made that comment about putting women and children in front of the militia. No one else condoned that. You like to take one individual's comments and try to make them apply to everyone there.

In regards to the Hitler comment. I wasn't comparing Hitler to specific politicians in power. I was comparing several policies, regulations and technological capabilities our government uses against its own people that Hitler (and Stalin I suppose too) would have a field day with. NSA wiretapping, internet spying, drone airstrike assassinations, FBI facial recognition technology, RFID tracking chips, surveillance cameras everywhere.

Damn, is the midwest U.S. that dangerous these days? I wonder, have YOU traveled alone, by car, across the entire United States? I sure have. Twice. I drove from New York to Los Angeles and then a year later, from Las Vegas to New York. I stopped at places such as Flagstaff, AZ; Albuquerque, NM; Oklahoma City, OK; Amarillo, TX; Joplin, MO; Roswell, NM; Lawrence, KS; and a variety of rest stops and truck stops along the way to refuel, full of "redneck murderous white supremacists". Oh wait. They weren't murderous white supremacists. Your train of thought about the American people, especially non-liberals, is quite dated. I have a better chance of being brutally raped and murdered walking through Chicago or Manhattan than I do in East Bumblefuck, USA.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

I wonder if Kitti is auditioning for a job with Fox? or as a shockjock?

Do you enjoy Fox, Kitty - that big network owned by one of the world's most successful media barons who will align his media empire sides with whichever regime he needs to in order to sustain his revenue flow?

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I don't watch any form of mainstream news except to find out the weather. And for that I use the Weather Channel. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and every other major network is the same lying, deceptive BS as all the others.

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Originally Posted by trish

No you are. I said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”

And at no point did I say Cliven and his white supremacist friends Nazis.

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Your absolute inability to comprehend English disturbs me.

"He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, .... a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred."

White Supremacists are racist individuals, typically associated with Neo-Nazis, the KKK, Aryan Nations, Hammerskins and other white power movement groups, known for their hatred of non-whites. Stop embarrassing yourself.

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Originally Posted by kittyKaiti

Your absolute inability to comprehend English disturbs me.

"He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, .... a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred."

White Supremacists are racist individuals, typically associated with Neo-Nazis, the KKK, Aryan Nations, Hammerskins and other white power movement groups, known for their hatred of non-whites. Stop embarrassing yourself.

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You said,

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You're implying the protesters and militia are Nazis, Klansmen and psychopaths.

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No. You did. I only said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”

If I’m required to read Cliven’s idiotic remarks literally, then please do me the curtesey of reading mine, literally and without assumption.

Yeah, we could argue about the literal dictionary definition of “white supremacist” (n. a person who believes that the white race is or should be supreme), “neo-nazi” vs “nazi”, what the subject of the third sentence in quotes is etc. But that would be all aside the point. It is telling that this non-point is the only thing you seem to find disturbing.

It will cost you on average $16 per head per month to rent grazing land from a private owner. The U.S. in Nevada is charging less than $2 per head per month, yet Bundy won’t pay it? Not disturbing?
Of course not. He doesn’t recognize the Federal government, just the good ol’ county sheriff.

How about the fact that up until twenty years ago Cliven’s cattle grazed legally for free and as of twenty years ago illegally for free and yet at the same time he complains about the welfare negro? Disturbing?
No, he has a negro friend who’s down with that.

How about the fact that Cliven claims to be a freedom-lover and yet he often finds himself wondering whether or not the negro was better off enslaved? Isn’t that downright contradictory?
Not really. Cliven is a deep and careful thinker and you got to read him carefully.

How about the fact that Cliven doesn’t seem to know that slaves in the South had no assurances of a family life? Not disturbing?
Enough with the lib tears. I’m drownin’ here. Anyway this isn’t about race its about guns.

How about the fact that there’s a young woman who claims she is a lover of freedom but doesn’t seem to find anything at all disturbing or puzzling about any of Cliven’s views? She finds them all just peachy keen? Disturbing?
Naw, not disturbing...shameful.