The Jared Leto Question

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Originally Posted by RallyCola

this thread has proven to be no different than any other here...everyone so entrenched in their opinion with no actual debate.

rabbiteyes is making nonsensical posts because in one breath she would like trans actors to have fair shot at trans roles and in the other breath she pigeonholes trans actors into trans roles. its a ridiculous POV and contradictory when you read the sum of her posts.

moreover some of the statements about trans actors APPEAR unfounded...giovanni states that there are trans actors capable of holding their own. i know of none. if there are trans actors that have held their own with other big talent, please let me know where to find them. i contest that no trans actor has yet earned mainstream tv or movie success for their acting chops so that statement by giovanni is equally ridiculous.

runningdown is just an idiot who cannot read. i am not even going to bother because those of you who can read clearly see what my point is from my previous posts.

as far as DBC goes...the fact is that the producers did what served them best...hired an actor that would aid them in making the most money. i think they got what they were looking for. jared leto did a fine job with his role AND given his competition for this year's supporting actor award, deserved the trophy.

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Condescending much??

It's disingenuous to argue because you personally don't know of any prominent trans-actors there must not be any TS capable of playing basically themselves in a movie.

That's what screen-tests are for, to see if someone can sell a line in a script in front of a camera.

Call me crazy, but my gut tells me there are TS women out here with enough of a dramatic sense to act in a movie..playing a transwoman.:geek:

Rabbiteyes isn't pigeonholing TS in trans roles, but I agree with her point if you're going to have an actor play a trans character on film, it wouldn't hurt to seek out a TS actor.

It's not uncommon for people from underrepresented communities to be cast as first time actors in movies and be quite excellent in those roles.

Cambodian Haing S. Ngor had NEVER ACTED IN A MOVIE before he was cast as a Cambodian refugee in The Killing Fields. He won Best Supporting Oscar.
http://img2-1.timeinc.net/ew/i/2013/...ing-S-Ngor.jpg

For character roles, it's really not that uncommon for first time actors to be cast and do a terrific job.


It's ludicrous to expect TS actors to pay their dues working their way up through repertory theatre etc., before they've 'earned' the right to play TS roles.

I think it's really difficult for some demographics in our society to understand how phony and demeaning it is to routinely see OTHER people starring in roles other than the ACTUAL people the actors are attempting to portray.

Do you hire a transsexual to portray a transsexual in a movie? Maybe. More than likely NO.

No, you do not hire a doctor to play a doctor on screen, or a cop to play a cop. No, you do not hire a real terrorist to play a terrorist on screen. Its called a role and you hire a PROFESSIONAL ACTOR.

Emphasize in the word PROFESSIONAL.

Somehow people tend to underestimate the jobs of others and to magically think that "you can do them", well, sorry, but no, YOU CAN'T.

The fact that you do something in real life does not imply that you can do it within a film set and keep up with the part.

And by the way, as a producer, you do not gamble your hard earned budget on a project with no professionals that does not guarantee that you will be able to complete the job successfully.

When you guys comment about Jared Leto maybe not meeting a trans once or twice in his life, well, how do you know? How do you know the work that he did to prepare for the part?, it sounds like a bunch of prejudiced statements from some people that have little right to judge others.

Dallas Buyers Club is a UNION show. How many TS SAG union actors are out there?... that are willing to play the part... and that can actually play the part? Not many (if any) I can guarantee you that.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating the work of others, and to somehow thing that you or you're community is somehow entitled to something that you're not.

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Originally Posted by the_corner

Do you hire a transsexual to portray a transsexual in a movie? Maybe. More than likely NO.

How many TS SAG union actors are out there?... that are willing to play the part... and that can actually play the part? Not many (if any) I can guarantee you that.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating the work of others, and to somehow thing that you or you're community is somehow entitled to something that you're not.

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DO you hire a transexual actor for a role.. I say Yes. And before you jump on me, I agree the actor should be professional. How many can play the part? More than you think. How many are SAG? Very very few as you have to get hired to enter the union (catch 22)

Do i think he Jared did well, absolutely. Do I think a Ts performer could do the gig. In a heartbeat.

My two cents.

A TS playing a TS in a movie is now considered an undeserved entitlement??lol

Wow.

Jared Leto was playing real life for all too many TS. He didn't discover some unknown emotional depth in the psyche of transwomen.

The producer and director of Dallas Buyer's Club made no effort to find or screen-test a TS to play the role.

To assume it's because none existed is myopic and dismissive.

When the character is a woman, you try to find a female actor. When the character is a man, it doesn't hurt to cast a dude in that role.

Being trans isn't some pretense. If being a TS is inherent to the character on film, you as a director are better off making the honest effort to find a TS to play the role.

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Originally Posted by VictoriaVeil

DO you hire a transexual actor for a role.. I say Yes. And before you jump on me, I agree the actor should be professional. How many can play the part? More than you think. How many are SAG? Very very few as you have to get hired to enter the union (catch 22)

Do i think he Jared did well, absolutely. Do I think a Ts performer could do the gig. In a heartbeat.

My two cents.

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I give you this. If I was doing this show, would I hire a transsexual? I would tell you that I would consider it.

But that doesn't mean that I would do it, because there are other variables in the game that go beyond idealistic choice, and in the end, you do what you have to do to get the project going, and that's all.

other than the girl in orange is the new black Im not sure I have seen a good ts actor/actress. Im sure there have to be some out there but being good at one role doesn't mean you can pull off any role. I think they made the right choice for marketing and his onscreen chops, And while im not a fan of jared leto he has done some good movies, has it been a while since the last one.....sure but then he is busy touring in a platinum selling band.

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Originally Posted by Rabbiteyes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4h30ysR0lk

My guess is Buyers Club will be a short footnote in "the progression of the tranny" down the road.

And it will be the black face period...when cis straight men played trans women.

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I agree entirely. And in due course it will be looked on as just as embarrassing as the portrayal that gained Hattie McDaniel the first Oscar to be awarded to an African-American in Gone With The Wind. And it took another 30 years for civil rights legislation to be carried into law.

Call me over-optimistic, and in spite of the rabid hostility of various blue states to equal marriage and transsexual rights, there is definitely a positive trend towards acceptance, and it won't take thirty years.

But while we're discussing Jared Leto's suitability, consider the competition for the best supporting actor role. Barkhad Abdi was nominated for his role as the lead pirate in Captain Phillips and imho filled the screen every bit as powerfully as the double Oscar winner Tom Hanks.

And had he ever acted in a film before? No. Paul Greengrass wanted as much realism as he could get, so chose a Somali without acting experience.

Irony, anyone?

A view from within the transsexual community. Grishno is occasionally provocative but usually talks a lot of sense.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTlCfUX2yM

I agree with the general thrust of the arguments here. It should have been a transsexual. But as Robert louis says, it's a marker on the road. After all would anyone but an Indian play Gandhi today. Yet in 1982 Ben Kingsley was cast in the role.

Oh and Leto was actually pretty good.

Ben Kingsley was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji, the child of an Indian father and English mother, but the general point is well-made.

Taking it back still further, I remember watching the film of Olivier's Othello at school and being taken aback by the black stain Olivier as Othello left on Desdemona's (Maggie Smith's) cheek after an embrace.

After a brief check, I see that Leto has made several appearances in drag. I would say that he is at least supporting gender non-conformity.

After a while some t-people will get tired of always seeing their kind, in lower class roles, as some Black Americans have. I would be happy to see t-people play sis-gender roles. I recently saw a Chinese movie, that did this. But they do have a long history of this in China.

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

Ben Kingsley was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji, the child of an Indian father and English mother, but the general point is well-made.

Taking it back still further, I remember watching the film of Olivier's Othello at school and being taken aback by the black stain Olivier as Othello left on Desdemona's (Maggie Smith's) cheek after an embrace.

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I didn't know that. Whoops...... Dork or dunderhead! You choose.

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Originally Posted by RallyCola

i'm not saying it is unreasonable...i'm saying it is demeaning for a trans actor to be limited to that type of role because of their personal disposition. moreover, it moves nothing forward and would attract improper attention. the spectacle would be on that actor just because she or he is trans...not for their skill and that makes it far less meaningful than it should be.

that you don't understand that is pretty sad.

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So you are saying what Laverne Cox has done is demeaning?

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

Ben Kingsley was actually born Krishna Pandit Bhanji, the child of an Indian father and English mother, but the general point is well-made.

Taking it back still further, I remember watching the film of Olivier's Othello at school and being taken aback by the black stain Olivier as Othello left on Desdemona's (Maggie Smith's) cheek after an embrace.

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Taken aback by the black face make-up or by the fact that some people see white women as forever stained for being with a black man.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Reflections

Taken aback by the black face make-up or by the fact that some people see white women as forever stained for being with a black man.

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The former. Naughty boy! :)

If it's about the acting: it would be nice to have a real transsexual play the role but eventually it has to be the best actor for the role.
In my opinion, it is much more about the director: the actor can only depict the character as directed. If he is being asked to focus on stereotypes, it will not matter how good the actor is, the results will be awful.....

It is a rather dishonest film but an enjoyable one. it does raise the central question (beyond the controversy over the casting) of how much a dramatisation should cleave the historical truth and how much creative licence is allowable to make it more 'dramatic." The recent film "Philomena" is seems plays terrific fast and loose with the historical facts (which on their own would have made a terrific story without unnecessary enhancement).

Another issue here is that Dallas Buyers Club is supposed to be set in 1985. I would go on a tangent and say that a "tranny" of 1985 (almost 3 decades ago!) looked way different to what we're used to seeing today.

There was no hormone therapy as we know today, no silicon implants, etc. etc.

As such, a 1985 "tranny" would look more like a man in drag, maybe a man in drag that takes old fashioned contraceptives to "look more femme".

Does that mean that the production should have hired a gay man to play the role? I would suggest that you should cast whoever can play the role, regardless of sexual preference.

Perhaps the only objectionable thing here is that it appears that the producers did not even attempt to cast a transsexual, which maybe they should have at least tried, yet there are production variables that we can't see and hence, that we can't judge.

With that said, I find the work of Leto very remarkable and that the praises he is getting are well deserved.

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Originally Posted by the_corner

Another issue here is that Dallas Buyers Club is supposed to be set in 1985. I would go on a tangent and say that a "tranny" of 1985 (almost 3 decades ago!) looked way different to what we're used to seeing today.

There was no hormone therapy as we know today, no silicon implants, etc. etc.

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Hell, there were parts of the city that didn't have electricity or even running water, you'd see people down by the river washing their chamberpots.

OK so you've got the role:a drug-addled transvestite street-hooker - someone who's mentally and physically very sick. The writer and director intend to depict her life and suffering in a tragi-comic manner.

The actor or actress in the role preferably has to be prepared to lose 3 or 4 stone,to show the effects of AIDS related wasting.

Which current transgendered actor is best placed to play this or similar roles?


I get some of the criticisms of the choice of Leto,but these criticisms could generally be extended to the profession of acting as a whole. Whichever way you cut it ,actors pretend to be something they are not and that is part of what entertains the audience .

I like Jared, his 30seconds to mards videos fucking rock :rock2

This is ridiculous. The Academy give awards to actors and actresses who display RANGE. Leto won that award BECAUSE he's a straight male. It would not have been so impressive an acting job coming from someone who lived that life 24/7.

Gender specific roles typically are played by people of that gender.
Look for a TS next time.

This is 2014, there are more than enough TS who can play THEMSELVES or someone very close to themselves on screen.

this is bullshit.

why are people bringing up Jared Leto's sexual orientation? What the fuck has his personal life got to do with a role. Imagine the outrage if the straight community were questioning a gay male playing a straight role? What a preposterous hypocritical slur.

As for playing a transgendered role, a transgendered person is somebody transitioning from male to female or female to male. This film's casting was after a quality actor to portray a role. I cannot see why a man or a woman couldn't portray this role, seeing as its a role that needs belief the character is a man who is transgendered. So started life as a male but is now transitioning. Why MUST it be a transgendered person? How do you know that transgendered people auditioned but weren't good enough. Where are these oscar performing transgendered actors/actresses hiding?

IF WIDOW TWANKEY ISNT PLAYED BY A FEMALE AT NEXT YEARS PANTOMIME IM GOING TO FUCKING KICK OFF

Also why should there be ANY transgendered actors/actresses? Why does anybody WANT to be 'trans'. Surely there are only Men and Women? No? The trans label is surely just more bullshit. Its a temporary state.. no? Candis Cayne is a beautiful woman. Carmen Carrera is a beautiful woman. Not beautiful transgendered. Fucking bunch of cunts the lot of ye...

momentary diversion: coolest TS played by a GG...the character Mia from the limited series "Hit & Miss"...played by Chloe Sevigny.

wish a network would pick that up and continue it.

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Originally Posted by SpoogeMonkey

this is bullshit.

why are people bringing up Jared Leto's sexual orientation? What the fuck has his personal life got to do with a role. Imagine the outrage if the straight community were questioning a gay male playing a straight role? What a preposterous hypocritical slur.

As for playing a transgendered role, a transgendered person is somebody transitioning from male to female or female to male. This film's casting was after a quality actor to portray a role. I cannot see why a man or a woman couldn't portray this role, seeing as its a role that needs belief the character is a man who is transgendered. So started life as a male but is now transitioning. Why MUST it be a transgendered person? How do you know that transgendered people auditioned but weren't good enough. Where are these oscar performing transgendered actors/actresses hiding?

IF WIDOW TWANKEY ISNT PLAYED BY A FEMALE AT NEXT YEARS PANTOMIME IM GOING TO FUCKING KICK OFF

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According to you, if a natal man/woman or TS are all equally qualified to play trans roles on stage and film, why is there so much outrage about an actual TS playing.....herself???

I feel there's this unspoken bigotry against TS whenever they seek to carve out their own public space and force society at large to acknowledge they EXIST.

The director himself admitted he DID NOT SEEK OUT a TS to act in this movie.

Let's stop pretending only established actors are capable of playing convincingly niche character driven roles.

Unknowns are cast all the time in movies with very little to no acting experience who then go on to give outstanding performances.

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Originally Posted by SpoogeMonkey

The trans label is surely just more bullshit. Its a temporary state.. no? Candis Cayne is a beautiful woman. Carmen Carrera is a beautiful woman. Not beautiful transgendered. Fucking bunch of cunts the lot of ye...

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Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

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Originally Posted by Rabbiteyes

Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

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I feel this is a healthy (or healthier) way of looking at trans life. There are some t people bent on maintaining the status on the gender divide. They attack gays, and even some bi people, even though they may have at one time identified as gay. I think society is getting healthier as a whole, even though there will be pockets of backlash. One of the best things is for people to get to know, someone from the oppressed group. Entertainment is one of the best ways to reach a larger group of people. Seems as though there are more trans people being portrayed these days. I still believe that Jared Leto helped to open more eyes about gender non-conformity. What has not been mentioned here is that a name actor will attract a wider audience, which means more money at the box office. I did not know Jared Leto by name, but I remember his face from other roles. I bet there are a few who checked out the movie, simply because he was in it.

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
http://blogs.centrictv.com/lifestyle...03/19818-1.jpg


It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

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Originally Posted by Rabbiteyes

Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

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I think you did well not to rise to the moronic provocation of that poster. Far too many posters here, and people in the wider world, choose to reduce the complexities of transsexuality to the simplest form available, often that which conforms to their own set of narrow prejudices.

In the real world, trans girls, at whatever stage they might be in their transition, simply get on with it, living their lives a million miles from the fantasies of porn. And that's hard.

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
http://blogs.centrictv.com/lifestyle...03/19818-1.jpg


It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

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This is the point I believe most of the others posting in this thread are missing. It's NOT about Jared Leto per se or whether he deserved an award or whether he's a good actor or whether he portrayed the character accurately. It's about ignorance missed opportunity by the director and producers of the film. There are few transgender characters in film and here was a chance to provide some authentic and meaningful insight into that world yet not only do they ignore the chance the director decides to be a prick about the rationale behind his decision.

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Originally Posted by runningdownthatdream

This is the point I believe most of the others posting in this thread are missing. It's NOT about Jared Leto per se or whether he deserved an award or whether he's a good actor or whether he portrayed the character accurately. It's about ignorance missed opportunity by the director and producers of the film. There are few transgender characters in film and here was a chance to provide some authentic and meaningful insight into that world yet not only do they ignore the chance the director decides to be a prick about the rationale behind his decision.

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This. :iagree::iagree::iagree:

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

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The Jared Leto character Rayon is a composite of various people from Woodroof's life, some of whom may have been 'full-time' transgendered women some of them 'part-timing as women' as you put it. It is a fictional role in that respect, yet most of the time Rayon is in character, and this rings true with a lot of transwomen in the 1980s so I don't see what you are getting at as far as Leto is concerned -yes, the Producer and Director could have made a different choice -but as I also said in another post sometimes it comes down to agents too, and it is often up to an agent to get his actors a part as much as the makers of the film.

Lady Chablis in a poor film was at best two-dimensional and most of the time required to perform stereotypical limp-wristed gestures as a cartoon tranny, as tedious as Candy Carling in an Andy Warhol film.

Here is Leto from today's Guardian (full interview in the link):

"When you were preparing to play Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club, an HIV-positive transgender woman, did you talk to trans people and people with HIV? Yeah, definitely. I talked to transgender people and that was the education and the start of it all. I'm really grateful for those experiences.
Did you go method? I stayed in character the entire shoot. I couldn't imagine doing it another way. I'd gone too far to pick it up and drop it off."


http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...as-buyers-club

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

I think you did well not to rise to the moronic provocation of that poster. Far too many posters here, and people in the wider world, choose to reduce the complexities of transsexuality to the simplest form available, often that which conforms to their own set of narrow prejudices.

In the real world, trans girls, at whatever stage they might be in their transition, simply get on with it, living their lives a million miles from the fantasies of porn. And that's hard.

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robert louis, fuck off

rabbiteyes

I find your view odd. Surely the term trans(ition) is a misnomer then, because you are by the very definition transitioning, thus taking a journey from male to something that isn't male and is a feminised male. And that by all intent and reason must be a more female form. Because you are identifying with female traits. I don't accept that the term trans is a negative for people, if the ultimate conclusion is reached (whether thats dependent of how the person sees themself, or if all the boxes are ticked). I believe its a badge of honour to wear whilst going through it, and shout about it so people can accept and bigotry will end. There are more trans stories than ever before IMO, which will eventually educate even the most retarded mind.

I find it insulting that you think trans people want to identify as the gender they fell they are.

However, food for thought. Thanks for responding, its something I never really considered before.

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Originally Posted by SpoogeMonkey

I find your view odd. Surely the term trans(ition) is a misnomer then, because you are by the very definition transitioning, thus taking a journey from male to something that isn't male and is a feminised male.

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Is transitioning simply moving from one gender to another?

It is really more of a set of mental, physical, and social changes that a person goes through (regardless of gender). It is a period of coming to terms with these set of changes and sorting through how to function in society within the new confines these changes bring.

While you may feel that trans is not a negative... most of the world does.

That is why trans people tend to run from the stigma associated with being trans (even to the point of denying they are transgender at all, claiming to be simply women with birth defects).

You see, trans people are raised in the same society as everyone else. We have the same prejudices and misconceptions about trans people as anyone does (at least, at the beginning of transition, before sorting out what we are and beginning to take those steps). Heck, I thought that trans people were either cute twinks in porn (who were born that way I thought), or those drag queens in pride parades. Both, as you can imagine, were not very flattering views of trans people or the reality of the situation.

Let's look a little closer at the definitions of "male" and "female" in our society.

Effectively, we live in a rather restrictive set of gender norms (which has only intensified within the last 30 years, to a point where even gender neutral products are beginning to be gendered....razors? Toothbrushes? Shampoo? Often these can be the exact same product, just in different packaging for their "correct gender")

So, when a person is viewed in our culture, we take a mental tally of their "male" and "female" qualities (since, in our culture, every quality is divvied out to be male or female...which is odd, since every human quality can be found in bother genders to one degree or another).

This is really the reason our culture strives to call MTF as "women" (even the trans people themselves, having grown in the same culture).

In our culture, the idea of a male having a certain set of feminine qualities just doesn't make sense.... at a certain point, we collectively decide to call that person female.

This is what happened with me. As I started transitioning, I obtained just a few additional "female" qualities (long hair, subtle redistribution of fat in the face)....and that is when people began to gender me female (and even people would argue with me when I said I identified as male. To them, it simply didn't make sense....a male is not a person with X number of feminine qualities).

This seems rather odd....at least to me. Either I was always female (a claim no one who saw me before would try to make)...or, the couple of feminine qualities that I gained through transition (such as long hair and subtle shift of fat in the face) are the "key" aspects that make a person male or female (again, a rather absurd claim to make).

There are actually a lot of "MTF" trans people who don't quite feel as if they are female.

BUT, things become a bit more messy when society starts to get involved.

You see, first...we have a great deal of pressure to identify as female. Using the male bathroom causes problems. Needing to correct (or sometimes argue) everyone and have lengthy discussions on the nature of gender grows old quickly. And, a range of other rather annoying "quality of life problems" that pop up when general society has a certain way of thinking (X number of feminine qualities = female).

And, it gets even worse when dealing with legal protections or health care. For example, if I want to be covered (or even for me to deal with some doctors for hormones), I need to tote the party line and tell them I believe I am female. That is the only recognized "legitimate" way of being transgendered and receive care. The same is true with bathroom protections or being safer in terms of matching legal documents when traveling (for example, canada has laws against a person who identifies as male but looks female being allowed to fly on airplanes).

Our society has a gross misunderstanding of gender (even with respect to transgender people). It forces us to "get with the program" of a very binary social structure built around gender. It is confining not just for trans people, but actually for cis gendered people as well (as the feminist movement shows, or even the growing discomfort men are showing with being unable to express themselves beyond a very limited range).

Trans people also buy into these ideas (some rather intensely, accepting rather dated ideas of relationship roles...sometimes taking it to a rather extreme level). And, like I said before, some trans internalize what they are being told (and have grown up within) to such a degree that they deny they were ever male in the first place (or even trans).

Here is the thing.....this isn't global. In other cultures, trans people (and their surrounding society) don't view themselves in the same way. There are a variety of ways they consider things.

Personally, I think the 3rd gender probably makes a bit more sense. Instead of trying to rip down the established 2 gender system... it simply adds a 3rd gender which is granted complete freedom of gender expression. It still allows for the binary division in society between genders....while also giving trans people a free pass to do as they wish to whatever degree makes them comfortable (since, well, trans people run a rather large range).

Also, it is a bit more healthy (in my opinion) for MTF to not see themselves as female.

Here is why.

Basically, if you are a MTF and you identify as female....suddenly all of your feminine qualities are "to be expected". The thing is, the male qualities which you still have are sources of "wrong" and undesired. It can cause a person to focus on their masculine qualities (body hair, bone structure, voice) to such a degree as to cause themselves a great deal of distress (for something they really can't help).

If a MTF person identifies as male, on the other hand. Suddenly all of the feminine qualities are amazing gifts and to be celebrated. They are unique, and beautiful (especially being compared against other men). While the masculine qualities left are simply "to be expected" and nothing to be upset about.

The "female world" is a rather harsh one (especially in our society, with the relationship to media and the like). HUGE focus is placed on imperfections and beauty. I really don't know why a trans person would wish that for themselves.

Why not simply embrace femininity (as much as you desire)...and celebrate all that you can achieve in that regard...without ever feeling like you are directly "competing" with cis females? Basically....celebrate being trans, instead of constantly feeling as though you are just a "woman with birth defects".

Or, so, that is how I see it. ;)

I think this probably ended up pretty long :|

Interesting that nobody mentioned the biggest outrage of the weekend's award shows.

Tyler Perry winning the worst actress Razzie for his performance in a Madea Christmas ...

I think they should have attempted to find a trans actress to portray the role, but they didn't even attempt that. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Outrage over a straight guy playing a trans role, but would their have been outrage of a trans woman playing an HIV positive hooker? I don't know.

I don't have a problem with Leto playing a trans character, then again I am not trans. Do people have a problem of Neil Patrick Harris playing a straight guy on "How I Met Your Mother"? Did anyone have a problem with Justin Bratha (spelling?) playing a gay character on that show "The New Normal".

I don't know many TS actresses except for a few. Harmony, Laverne, and some of the trans women that played on the movie "Ticked off trannies with knives".

At least his win is getting people talking about trans people in movies.

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Originally Posted by pointythingshurt

This is ridiculous. The Academy give awards to actors and actresses who display RANGE. Leto won that award BECAUSE he's a straight male. It would not have been so impressive an acting job coming from someone who lived that life 24/7.

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...I thought the point of contention was that the role should have gone to a TS, not whether or not Leto deserved the award

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Originally Posted by lifeisfiction

I wonder if a trans person had played the role, would they have gotten an academy award? We are jumping through too many hoops.

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....again, not the point...you're right about the hoops thing, tho

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

When the character is a woman, you try to find a female actor. When the character is a man, it doesn't hurt to cast a dude in that role.

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...not necessarily, Linda Hunt did a fine job as a dude in Year of Living Dangeously

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Originally Posted by yodajazz

After a while some t-people will get tired of always seeing their kind, in lower class roles, as some Black Americans have.

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...true...same for Italians, usually in the Mafia...Irish, usually drunks, etc
...it's a question of what scripts are out there and which ones of those actually go into development

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Originally Posted by the_corner

.... there are other variables in the game that go beyond idealistic choice, and in the end, you do what you have to do to get the project going

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...exactly right...and one of the main things you have to do is convince the studio that the obscene amount of money they are investing will eventually result in profit....and name recognition has a huge effect on the bottom line. The producers and directors hire people they believe can deliver the most convincing performance and who can best portray the essence of the character. Could a TS have done as well in the role?...quite possibly. Should they have tried to find one?...probably, but that takes a lot of time and money...a coupla those other significant variables. Maybe they decided they could save that extra expense after seeing that Leto's performance would be competent and memorable. It is, after all, show Business. It's not personal...it's business