Shemales are just men... don't take my word for it

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Originally Posted by dafame

That's the pretty typical response MacShreach. But ask yourself why do you feel the need to reach so far in their defense when they don't need defending? I'm sure there are several girls who will take offense to some of the things I've said simply because it goes against the "illusion" and that's just something you don't do. But why would anything I said upset you? Especially when I didn't say anything that should offend or piss of anyone (most notably the parts about how I love transsexuals and I think it's a great thing in itself--incase you missed these parts).

Come on people lighten up. If you want to convince yourselves that they are woman no different then your mother then by all means do that if it helps you get through the day.

Me myself I prefer to live in reality and see there transsexuality as a virtue instead of something that is to be frowned upon. Now who sounds more like the person who hates transsexuals? Me, a person who blinds himself totally from the true self of the person he's dealing with. Just something to think about but I'm not expecting anything other than attacks to come from you at this point so fire away.

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Do yourself a favour: read Trish's post.....over.....and over........it may eventually sink in.

understanding gender is a really big headfuck, why the op started this fishing trip... :O

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Originally Posted by runningdownthatdream

Do yourself a favour: read Trish's post.....over.....and over........it may eventually sink in.

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I read it. It was a great post but didn't apply to me. I agree with much of what she said.

I don't necessarily agree with EVERYTHING in that video, but I appreciate her approach. She repeats that this is HER opinion, and I have to respect that.

As many have already sain on this thread, we're all entitled to our opinions.

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

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:iagree:

not to change the subject, but Damn Sammi, I don't need a bucket, just 2 handfuls will do. you look AMAZING in your avatar pic.... yummy!

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Originally Posted by needsum

not to change the subject, but Damn Sammi, I don't need a bucket, just 2 handfuls will do. you look AMAZING in your avatar pic.... yummy!

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aaw thanks - I had got dolled up for a "dinner kinda date booking thing" and liverpool had just beat manchester utd so that helped me look happy xxx

well if you could see me right how you'd know I was happy too.... ;) vaVOOM!!

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

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Thoughtful post, Giovanni. I think the problem arises from a fundamental moral absolutism--that is to say that everything is either 'yes' or 'no', 'black' or 'white' 'male' female' etc. I think this comes from the absolutism implicit in the monotheistic religious culture that even today, for better or worse, informs our society. People are predisposed towards absolutist answers; the trouble is that people are human, and thus a species of living thing, and natural science tells us that within each species there is variation. Everything is a continuum, not an on/off switch. So people's sense of gender identity is really varied, just like their sense of orientation. One of the nice things about this board is you really get to see a lot of examples of that both from the men and the women.

It really can't come as a surprise that someone who does not have a standard alpha-male sense of gender will spend a lot of time wondering what the hell is going on, when they live in a society that preaches an absolutist viewpoint. At the end of the day though, if that person is happier and more fulfilled understanding that whatever she was handed at birth, she's a woman, then that's what she is, just as much as if she decides that she's not a woman or a man but somewhere in between. This is all quite natural, and the reason there is a Kinsey scale for sexuality, and a Benjamin scale for gender identification. (Yes I know about Blanchard/Bailey, but that work has been completely shot to bits in the scientific literature and I won't waste time on it here.)

Did you know, BTW, that the ancient Persians had at least six genders that were accepted within their ideology? And they were not the only culture to be much more relaxed about this sort of thing.

i dont see anything fundamentally incorrect with what she says
except maybe that given the evidence using a binary scale for measuring gender and sex is pretty ridiculous

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Originally Posted by muh_muh

i dont see anything fundamentally incorrect with what she says
except maybe that given the evidence using a binary scale for measuring gender and sex is pretty ridiculous

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Well yea and there is an anatomical spectrum that proves how stupid the initial binary concept is as it does not even take these into acccount before even considerng the gender spectrum...

I guess we/society prevents ourselves from ever changing.

Wasnt there a swedish family in the news a year or two ago, a baby born a certain biological sex but the parents were refusing to give a gender? So the child would decide or something similar :) caused a huge outcry , maybe it was something else ,,

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Originally Posted by SammiValentine

Well yea and there is an anatomical spectrum that proves how stupid the initial binary concept is as it does not even take these into acccount before even considerng the gender spectrum...

I guess we/society prevents ourselves from ever changing.

Wasnt there a swedish family in the news a year or two ago, a baby born a certain biological sex but the parents were refusing to give a gender? So the child would decide or something similar :) caused a huge outcry , maybe it was something else ,,

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And can we all please remember that this thread started with misappropriation, however well-intended, of a youtube vid by a confused and frightened young girl who needs help? Poor kid.

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

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I'll let this be the last of my statements being that I understand that there aren't any type of response that will be different then the ones that I've received thus far. As far as the men are concerned as mentioned before I understand where you're coming from. We've all been conditioned to believe that all of the girls think this way and thus our feeling and opinions have to validate these feelings.

On your first point that I highlighted I'm in agreement with you. I was in a long term relationship with a transgendered woman many years ago and she was beautiful. I considered her a woman and at times would forget that she was transgendered to a degree. I would catch myself in amazement like "oh yeah she is a transsexual" when she would do certain things that only transsexuals do "like cutting up perfectly good shorts to make some damn tuck panties...lol". But I doubt seriously that I would have felt that way about her at the time if she didn't convince me she was a woman in the way that she looked and acted.

But the problem with the notion you put out there is that it doesn't ring true with the people of this HA community. I have seen countless post of a picture on this site of someone who might just be starting out and clearly looks like a man in a wig. That is precisely how they are treated on this board. If you learned tomorrow that Arnold Schwarzenegger has always felt as though he was a woman I highly doubt there will be many people on this board or elsewhere that will say "If in the deeper psychological recesses of his mind, he KNOW'S he's a woman, you can't say his birth sex trumps all."

His feeling that way all his life may very well constitute that he is infact a woman but I doubt that people would start to treat him as such tomorrow if at all. This is really a crazy way of making the larger point that of course your birth sex matters. There are things that a naturally born woman can do that a transsexual simply can't and consequently there are things that a transsexual can do that a naturally born woman can't. So how can one say that they are exactly the same? But the even larger point that I was trying to make that people seem to miss or just really don't care to hear, is why would you want to say they're exactly the same thing when being a transsexual is GREAT!

But I understand that's something that bothers people so I'll move on. The next point you made: "I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional."

I can't speak for anyone else and am not the spokeman for trollers. I've been an individual trolling and will remain that way. With that said, the reason I'm so adamant about that point is because many (not all and I've made that point already) of them are.

Here's why I feel that way. After dating my ex who happened to be transgendered it was some years before I even thought about transsexuals. She was my exposure to transsexuals. Without going into the long story of how we met I'll just say that it was a long maturation process that brought us together that went from us dating for a while without me know a thing, to me learning the truth of her situation, leaving her alone, and then coming back. Through the experience of our relationship I gain an appreciation for transsexuals.

We were together nearly 3yrs and when our relationship ended transsexuals were the last thing on my mind. But after some years I did eventually start to date transsexuals again and what I learned is that they are very different then genetic women in one way in particular. How the go about choosing men.

Admittedly I haven't dated a lot of transsexaul woman so my sample may be small but this is based off of things that I heard from my ex's friends while we were together as well. See as soon as many of these girls found out about my previous relationship they didn't really want anything to do with me. I was a tranny chaser because I had been with a transsexual before and I couldn't give them the feeling that they were "turning me out" and that I would never have anything to do with a transsexual in any other circumstance but because it was them was the only reason I was there. Once they new about my previous relationship all of that went out the window.

Now as the years go by (and I know many of you have seen the posts as well about why the girls won't date a guy that's been with transsexuals), I've learned that not all women think this way.

It is self delusional to think in these terms. To think that any man that would be with you even if you're the first transsexual he's been with is any different then a man that has been with a transsexaul previous has something to do with you is self delusional to me.

I think it's also self delusional to consider yourself a woman through and through. No different in any way than any other woman, yet expect a man to be completely secure about you and to have to know that he isn't ashamed of you in any way. That if his friends or family knew of your situation that he would be fine with it because that what it takes to love you.

I in no way am suggesting that a man should hide his woman. Infact I can tell you that if I were to ever be in a relationship with a transsexaul again I would prefer that my friends and family knew simply because I don't like the pressure associated with trying to hide something like that. But for a woman to expect me to accept her "transsexuality" but can't accept that reality herself, to me is self delusional.

I don't know how anything that I've said makes me a bigot or "a homosexual that hates transsexuals" as someone posted earlier. I just have a different view point on what my expectations are of a girl and what it is that I appreciate about them. I'll say it again, I don't need them to be women no different then my cousins, I need them to be who and what they are. This is the appreciation that I have for them and if that doesn't fit into your box of how a man should view a transsexual then that's I guess where I've earned my label. Not a problem with me at all.

So with that said I'll take my fish and go feed the people.

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Originally Posted by dafame

...But I understand that's something that bothers people so I'll move on. The next point you made: "I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional."
...
I think it's also self delusional to consider yourself a woman through and through. No different in any way than any other woman, yet expect a man to be completely secure about you and to have to know that he isn't ashamed of you in any way. That if his friends or family knew of your situation that he would be fine with it because that what it takes to love you.

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Are you being self-delusional when you call yourself a man? Why not? Because you’re sportin’ a Y chromosome? Does that mean you’re a man through and through? How about that faggot clicking on those forbidden threads and jerking off to pics of dudes in wigs? He’s sportin’ a Y too. Is he a man? I mean through and through? What does that mean? Through and through? Couldn’t it be the case that you aren’t a man all the way through? Let’s go at this from the other direction. Is your transgender ex a man through and through? She too is toting a Y. But surely you couldn’t have had a romantic liaison with someone who was a man through and through. So I’m guessing your answer is that, “No, she isn’t a man through and through.” But judging from your post, it would be your opinion that she’s not a woman through and through either. So if through-and-thoughness is not genetically determined, how do you know you’re a man through and through? Perhaps you would admit you’re not? Perhaps you know just to what extent you’re a man and to what extent you aren’t. On most occasions do you present yourself as a man? All occasions? Do you want women to appreciate you sexually as a man? Would you reject a woman who didn’t think of you as man? I would reject a man who didn’t think of me as a woman. Is my attitude symmetric to yours? I don’t expect my lovers to think of me as a woman through and through...I’m not sure what that means exactly. But I do expect them to think of me as a woman to about the same extent and in the same way that think of them as men.

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Originally Posted by trish

Are you being self-delusional when you call yourself a man? Why not? Because you’re sportin’ a Y chromosome? Does that mean you’re a man through and through? How about that faggot clicking on those forbidden threads and jerking off to pics of dudes in wigs? He’s sportin’ a Y too. Is he a man? I mean through and through? What does that mean? Through and through? Couldn’t it be the case that you aren’t a man all the way through? Let’s go at this from the other direction. Is your transgender ex a man through and through? She too is toting a Y. But surely you couldn’t have had a romantic liaison with someone who was a man through and through. So I’m guessing your answer is that, “No, she wasn’t a man through and through.” But judging from your post, it would be your opinion that she’s not a woman through and through either. So if through-and-thoughness is not genetically determined, how do you know you’re a man through and through? Perhaps you would admit you’re not? Perhaps you know just to what extent you’re a man and to what extent you aren’t. On most occasions do you present yourself as a man? All occasions? Do you want women to appreciate you sexually as a man? Would you reject a woman who didn’t think of you as man? I would reject a man who didn’t think of me as a woman. Is my attitude symmetric to yours? I don’t expect my lovers to think of me as a woman through and through...I’m not sure what that means exactly. But I do expect them to think of me as a woman to the about the same extent and in the same way that think of them as men.

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It's good that someone actually took the time to read what I wrote and have some understanding of it without just jumping on the band wagon. Great points once again I'll touch on a couple. No my ex wasn't a man through and through although she was born male the way that I was. But through how she identified with herself she wasn't male through and through. She didn't consider herself male through and through nor did I.

Of course the use of hormones and various cosmetic adjustments helped her with how she identified with herself and helped me as well to see her the way she saw herself and the way I wanted to. She was beautiful and not only that she was the sweetest person I've ever met. Like I said previously, I'd forget at times that she was even transgendered. But with that said I can tell you that (and this is why I said someone actually took the time to understand the post) your assessment of what I said was correct. I do not see her as a woman through and through.

While we're on the subject of through and through let me clarify what I ment by that. Perhaps it wasn't the best choice of words and seems to have caused more confusion in you then is necessary for you to see the larger and perhaps important points. By through and through I simply was trying to establish that there is infact a difference between a transgendered woman and a woman that was born a woman. The same way that there's a difference between Chaz Bono and me, and some of it does just simply come down to those Y's and X's you were talking about.

As far as the homosexual (I don't use the other word) you were talking about that's mastubating to pictures of men in wigs. This doesn't really come down as much to behavior for me as it does the chromosomes. Regardless to what a man does or whether he's gay or straight is beside the point. A gay man who dates other gay men is no less of a man to me then any heterosexual man that bang every chick he meets. That's not what defines manhood in my opinion and it definitely doesn't change a person biological makeup.

So to answer you question, yes I would treat you as a woman. Just like any other woman. But because I see you and respect you in a certain way. Because I care for you and your feeling and truly believe that you were born in the wrong body doesn't mean that I can simply disregard as fact that you "WERE BORN IN THE WRONG BODY".

It doesn't mean that I can have the illusion that we can one day have biological children together, but by virtue of you it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be able to see you as being a great mother to children we could adopt.

It doesn't mean that I'd expect that there'd be a time each month that love making would be on shut down and you might have mood swings due to natural hormonal changes taking place in your body, but it does mean that I would understand that through what you need to do in order to keep you body in tune with how you feel that there may be times when "like a genetic woman" your hormones may give you the same type of mood swings.

And when infact we are making love it doesn't mean that I'd expect you to hide the part of you that speaks against the view you have of yourself or in your particular case I wouldn't expect you to feel the need to try to conceal the fact that what you have wasn't given to you at birth, but rather appreciate the fact that it is a rarity in either case (penis or vagina) to be making love to someone that you actually love.

So I'll say it again. The appreciation I have for you doesn't have anything to do with you convincing me that you're a woman no different than a woman born with a vagina. Instead I appreciate you're transsexuality.

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Originally Posted by dafame

It's good that someone actually took the time to read what I wrote and have some understanding of it without just jumping on the band wagon. Great points once again I'll touch on a couple. No my ex wasn't a man through and through although she was born male the way that I was. But through how she identified with herself she wasn't male through and through. She didn't consider herself male through and through nor did I.

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....sounds like you don't even have a definition for being male 'through and through'......at least not one that could be used to successfully counter Trish. I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things - not your fault since that's what we are taught and what's expected by society in general - while she is proposing that we can choose to define ourselves and who we are. But if you believe in God you believe everything is out of your control.....

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Originally Posted by runningdownthatdream

....sounds like you don't even have a definition for being male 'through and through'......at least not one that could be used to successfully counter Trish. I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things - not your fault since that's what we are taught and what's expected by society in general - while she is proposing that we can choose to define ourselves and who we are. But if you believe in God you believe everything is out of your control.....

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Come on guys. I don't mind being attacked but at the very least I ask that you read what I've said before doing so. This statement here shows that either you didn't read anything I said or you just picked through to the points you chose and used the to throw out the red meat to a waiting audience.

My beliefs don't have anything to do with what I was taught. They have to do with my own personal experiences and my some what understanding of biology.

This dialog is good but you gotta read what I'm saying if we're going to continue it.

No I get what you're saying about Trish's post and she was talking about stuff that didn't apply to me or my feeling towards transsexuals. There were good applause lines in there much of which I applaud myself, but I'm not sure what you were expecting me to take away from it in a personal way when it wasn't descriptive of me.

Ok I had to come back and edit this post and it's because I thought about something you said: I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things. Although it is true that my ideas on biology are fixed as they are based in fact I will respond to you assertion by saying: it seems you have very fixed ideas about things. This can actually be applied to someone else earlier who made a statement about me seeing things in "black & white". Black & white or have "fixed ideas" to me is saying you're either male or female. You're either born male or born female and in the case of the transsexual you were either born male or born female and "become" the opposite. I dispute this and say "things are not that fix or black & white". I say if you are born as a person who knows they are in the wrong body then you are born transgendered because a person born female can not actually become "male". This person couldn't actually produce sperm and procreate with a member of the opposite sex. Same with a person born in the body of a male and realizes her transsexuality. Although she can be very much a woman she can't actually become female. She can be a woman in her state of mind and in the way that she interacts with the world but she'd be a transsexual woman. I don't find anything wrong with being transsexual and really don't understand why so many people seem to.

Though we have fundamentally distinct approaches, I think both of our perspectives are humane and respectful. Thank you for your considered responses to my interrogatives.

Again, let me say that you generally strike me as someone who is being thoughtful and respectful. The language of “self-delusion” therefore seem incongruous. Are you sure that what you call “self-delusion” isn’t just a different use of language? Don’t many people, especially on these boards, use the term “woman” in such a way that it readily accommodates transgender women? Don’t we use the pronoun “she” to refer to a transgender woman? Why wouldn’t we hope that in the near future the general usage of “woman” and “she” extends the usage that we've adopted here? Why would you want to adopt a usage that accentuates the difference between me and any other woman? Can I never be introduced as a woman? Must I always be introduced as a transgender woman? Am I delusional to include myself in the category woman? Or am I just adopting a simple way of speaking? The human race is a continuum of genders. We all recognize that. Yet we divide ourselves into men and women. Why am I not allowed to chose a side and have others respect my choice? Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice. Albeit, a choice that may have been compelled by deep and only partly understood motivations, some of them perhaps physiological and some of them not. It's a choice I invite others to respect without asides about being deluded.

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Originally Posted by amberskyi

so because ONE girls says it than it must be true!!!! ok well in that same vain..men arent nothing but walking atm's

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LOL you go girl!! :Bowdown: :iagree:

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Originally Posted by trish

Though we have fundamentally distinct approaches, I think both of our perspectives are humane and respectful. Thank you for your considered responses to my interrogatives.

What still puzzles me is...



It is of course possible to distinguish you from every other male on the planet. So, for example, there is a difference between you and Steven Colbert, and that difference doesn’t come down to Y’s and X’s...indeed it can’t come down to Y’s and X’s because you’re both genetically male. Now if there’s a difference between you and Chaz Bono that doesn’t come down to Y’s and X’s isn’t it the same sort of difference that you have with Steven Colbert? I mean in that neither difference has anything to do with Y’s and X’s. Symmetrically, if I have a difference with Beyonce that doesn’t depend on Y’s and X’s, then isn’t that the same sort of difference that you have with Steven Colbert? How does such a difference make me something other than a women. Does your difference with Steven Colbert make you something other than a man?

Again, let me say that you generally strike me as someone who is being thoughtful and respectful. The language of “self-delusion” therefore seem incongruous. Are you sure that what you call “self-delusion” isn’t just a different use of language? Don’t many people, especially on these boards, use the term “woman” in such a way that it readily accommodates transgender women? Don’t we use the pronoun “she” to refer to a transgender woman? Why wouldn’t we hope that in the near future the general usage of “woman” and “she” extends the usage that we've adopted here? Why would you want to adopt a usage that accentuates the difference between me and any other woman? Are the distinctions you see which don’t depend on those Y’s and X’s all that important? Can I never be introduced as a woman? Must I always be introduced as a transgender woman? Am I delusional to include myself in the category woman? Or am I just adopting a simple way of speaking? The human race is a continuum of genders. We all recognize that. Yet we divide ourselves into men and women. Why am I not allowed to chose a side and have others respect my choice? Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice. Albeit, a choice that may have been compelled by deep and only partly understood motivations, some of them perhaps physiological and some of them not.

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Thanks Trish. I'm thanking you for thoughtfully approaching this conversation as well and looking at is for what it is open dialog between two people sharing there views. Wish I could say the same about some of the other people that have posted in response but there somewhat juvinille approach tells me that much of how they were coming at me had more to do with them being kiss asses to the girls on this forum and feeling the need to "defend their honor' then it did them actually being offended. That's not to say that they don't actually believe what their saying.

With that said I'm not sure if you read my last post in its entirety. Only reason I say that is because I think it answers some of the questions you just posed.

First let me say that I only used the term "self-delusional" because someone else used it and at the time it seemed fitting in describing a particular feeling. There probably is a better term and I meant no harm.

You make many valid points. Of course "I" use the pronoun "she" when describing a transsexual. Of course "I" refer to you as women because that's how you see yourselves, that's the way you carry yourselves, and consequently I wouldn't treat you any other way. Of course you have the right to choose a side and no calling yourself a woman does not make you "self-delusional".

But to think that there is absolutely nothing that seperates you from a genetic born woman is to me not facing and accepting the reality of the situation. You are a woman but with an asterisk so to speak. This asterisk only signifies the fact that although you are a woman "through and through" you're not "female", you're transgendered.

Only reason I point this out Trish is because it seems to be so many people that want to live a fantasy in order to do this, and I'm talking on both the side of the girls and the guys. It's not necessary because to me transsexuality is something to be proud of and celebrated. Being a transsexual woman as apposed to a genetic born "female" women makes you no less woman.

We're almost there, I think...except for that damn asterisk. Here's why. An asterisk doesn't conjure up the image of a subclass, but rather a parallel class. Let's just agree to call us all woman. Agree that there are wide variations within the category. That one subcategory is women who have transitioned.

BTW I deleted a paragraph from the last post, because my argument was based on a misunderstanding of what you said.

Thanks for the conversation. I gonna go now and relax for while.

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Originally Posted by KellyShore

I worry about Ellery sometimes, just saying.

She self medicates a lot..hasn't really been to a gender identity specialist.

So as beautiful as she is, she hasn't exactly taken time to understand whats going on inside of her.

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Well, she has one thing going for her... she stays away from this board. I wouldn't wish for any confused transsexual to wander into this morass.

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Originally Posted by trish

We're almost there, I think...except for that damn asterisk.

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Ok good point on the asterisk..lol.. Again not the best choice of a word but I think you understand the general premise behind what I'm saying.

Hey I appreciate this conversation we've had and I have new found insight as a result of the exchanges I've had with you. I consider you an ally. Talk to you later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trish

It has been claimed there’s nothing wrong with being what we were meant to be. But who meant me to be what I am? God? That’s a defunct idea. The Universe? Like the universe designed the things within it to serve a function and have a meaning. Biology? Chance? At conception my mother contributed an X chromosome and my father a Y. Did Chance “want” me to be a male, or was it just chance that I’m genetically male? Did Nature mean me to be a man in addition to being male? Does society? Is there really nothing at all wrong with being what society means you to be? So because I'm genetically male, does society mean[] me to be, want[] me to be a man? To function within the norms and customs as a man? I know there’s a very vocal segment of narrow minded bigots who do? Fuck them. And fuck their self-appointed spokespersons on this board. Can we not be self-determined and take responsibility for ourselves? Can we not be what we mean ourselves to be? Can we not please expect the respect that self-determination requires?

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^:iagree: 100%

That is one confused t-girl, but a real pretty one at the same time...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paladin

That is one confused t-girl, but a real pretty one at the same time...

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She kind of reminds me of myself...

Lol yes well... sex change is a fake vagina... its a fact lol...
I dont agree that she is a man...

She is underweight through..

And she is right...
We are a mixture of both... It does not make us men...

It makes us TS

She does not seem confused... she is just dealing with the fact that
she never will be a real woman...

nice girl... she at least is not bullshitting herself like most TS do
this will give her the strength to go on...

Despite the facts... she is happy transitioning...
And she will be extremely easy on her envirement...

She must only be aware lol.... that not all people are going to agree
with her, that she is a man LOL

She'll get used to that when time goes on...

I actually instantly love a Tgirl like this....could be one of my friends...

unlike many! lol


maybe the europian climate makes us icecold realists

This is the kind of girl that is able to live in reality and still transition and being happy with what she is...
But she will get a lot of bad comments from other TS, coz it takes some guts to do what she does...

To be able to self reflect as she does...
It also makes her very feminine on the inside...

So Nicole and Evonrose...
Learn something from this girl :)

You might just upgrade yourself from fulltime CD to woman lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dafame

Why do people insist on being so deep in their defense of this shit..lol.. Male vs Female is what we're talking about bruh. No need to be so technical because again you're reinforcing this false belief in these girls which is by far the worse part about them. I wish people would stop doing that but I realize also that just as many of them need that false sense of identity, so do many of us men in dealing with them.

Either end you're on its a complicated situation but it would be a lot simpler if people learned to love themselves for who they are rather than what they've managed to convince themselves they are or convinced themselves that the person they love or find an attraction to is.

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Hi Dafame!!

In a way..I can see where you are coming from and I agree... I would love to date someone like you lol. Its because you are not fooling yourself... which is important. Only thing is: the assumption you make that a Tgirl is confusing herself when she identifies as a woman, thats where you go wrong.

Its also pretty obvious that when you feel like a woman, think like a woman (like this girl obviously does), that most likely, she is just that.
Might be a bit of a dissapointment though, to find out she isn't a man, if thats what you are after lol.

A lot of Tlovers are very dissapointed to find femininity in Tgirls...I think they either want their best friend who watches sports and drinks beer to have breasts and blond hair and the same sex drive as they do lol....
Or they are into the role reversal thing...

A true feminine TS does not really fit that picture unfortunately lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KittyPride

Hi Dafame!!

In a way..I can see where you are coming from and I agree... I would love to date someone like you lol. Its because you are not fooling yourself... which is important. Only thing is: the assumption you make that a Tgirl is confusing herself when she identifies as a woman, thats where you go wrong.

Its also pretty obvious that when you feel like a woman, think like a woman (like this girl obviously does), that most likely, she is just that.
Might be a bit of a dissapointment though, to find out she isn't a man, if thats what you are after lol.

A lot of Tlovers are very dissapointed to find femininity in Tgirls...I think they either want their best friend who watches sports and drinks beer to have breasts and blond hair and the same sex drive as they do lol....
Or they are into the role reversal thing...

A true feminine TS does not really fit that picture unfortunately lol

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KittyPride, although the general premise of what I'm saying remains in tact, I have evolved a bit on the subject just from some of the conversations I've had here and with a friend of mine outside of this forum. Self-delusional was a term that I ran with from someone else here and that was a mistake because it's not truly representive of how I feel and is a rather harsh expression of that. I recant that.

I think some of my word were misplaced and it didn't reflect truly what I was trying to say and if you go back and read some of the more recent exchanges with Trish you'll have a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your reply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trish

Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice.
.

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:iagree:

it's also a simple choice to choose to ignore those who try to tell you that they know better than you who you are, inspite the fact that they never met you.

trying to tag poeple whom they never met IS self-delusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KittyPride

You might just upgrade yourself from fulltime CD to woman lol

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You have to bring your sniping here too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by terminator2011

An honest statement by the best looking tranny on the planet

Get a life "girls" and fact up to the fact of what she says makes a whole lotta sense!

http://ut1.xhamster.com/t/301/5_b_1013301.jpg

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fuck off retard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dafame

Really don't see anything wrong with what she said. What is there to snap out of? She said she's fine never being a "real" woman. She said that when girls get vaginas they are "fake" vaginas. Don't disagree with anything that she said because she was stating fact.

She said she knows you can be a girl born in a mans body but hormones although they change your outer appearance and make you look more the way that you feel, they don't change the fact that you were "BORN IN A MANS BODY".

Sounds to me that she's just content with being a transsexual and doesn't need to give herself the "illusion" that she's anything other than that.

While you guys are knocking her (totally understand fellas as we've been conditioned to believe that's what we're supposed to do), I think she's one of the unconfused ones.

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you american homos need some education,fuckin retards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lisaparadise

fuck off retard

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:Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown: Perfect.

Once upon a time there were Queens, then came the Princesses; I believe there are still some Goddesses around, so to be 'just men' is indeed a fall from grace...it is the despondent tone in the video that can be dealt with, if one is, as Krishnamurti once said, 'gentle with yourself'.

you shall above all things be glad and young
for if you're young, whatever life you wear
it will become you; and if you are glad
whatever's living will yourself become.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dafame

KittyPride, although the general premise of what I'm saying remains in tact, I have evolved a bit on the subject just from some of the conversations I've had here and with a friend of mine outside of this forum. Self-delusional was a term that I ran with from someone else here and that was a mistake because it's not truly representive of how I feel and is a rather harsh expression of that. I recant that.

I think some of my word were misplaced and it didn't reflect truly what I was trying to say and if you go back and read some of the more recent exchanges with Trish you'll have a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your reply.

---

You do seem to have refined, at least, your standpoint--a good tete-a-tete with Trish will often do that. I believe that you are much more well-meaning than I thought you appeared at first but I think you are still missing a very important point and that is that many TS women don't want to be thought of as 'special', they don't want to be appreciated for being transsexual, they just want to be women and get on with life. That being the case, your attempt to give them special treatment, albeit in a positive way, is often going to be unwelcome. I know it's a paradox, and one that most men here don't even see as it flies over their heads, but you do seem to be deeper and able to give it more profound thought.

The reason I mentioned AIS women, and especially Complete AIS women, is that they are as chromosomally male as a post-operative transsexual woman (excepting those who have other genetic intergender issues like Klinefelter's) yet they are seen as women. Indeed they are often only diagnosed when they want to have a child and can't. That means that really, the only difference between a CAIS woman, who is seen as a woman, and a post-operative transsexual woman, is upbringing--one was raised as a boy (probably) and the other as a girl. I don't think that a few years' conditioning, which many TS women report as feeling uncomfortable with at the time, is justification enough to say TS women are not women. If you think that's defending something that does not need defending, then that's fine, but it's is still my point that all the girls are asking for is NOT to be treated, or seen, differently from any other woman.

I'm not saying that's always going to be easy. But it is an essential step in getting transsexual women to be better accepted and able to live their lives as normal, ordinary girls. If people who like TS women can't do this much for them, then how can the world of sceptics, haters and bible-thumping conservatives ever be persuaded?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lisaparadise

you american homos need some education,fuckin retards

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Precisely my point. I won't dignify the homo statement with a response of by taking a defensive position against it. It is what it is, just a baseless attack.

I will however say that this is to me is an issue with some (not all) transsexuals. I've noticed that there seems to be an elevated state over the "gay" community and a frown upon gay men from "some". I even heard transsexuals say things like "I can't stand gay men" or "I think it's ok for a man to be with a transsexual but two men together is just nasty".

This is not a defense of the "homo" statement but I haven't ever been with a man (meaning someone who is masculine and looks and acts the way I do) and haven't ever found myself attracted to such. That may or may not disqualify me as a "homosexual" by your standard but that's really beside the point.

Point is I don't take issue with gay men or transsexuals or lesbians or anyone else outside of what society deems to be the norm. So why would you?

I get it. You're a heterosexual female and therefore you can make statements like that. My thing is regardless to how you may feel about yourself you shouldn't denigrate people who are different if for no other reason than the struggles that you've had to go through yourself with society not viewing you through the prism of what is the norm.

It's not that I don't find a difference between you and a "homosexual" male because I do. It's the hubris in your statement that points to the "TOTAL SEPARATION" from the gay community that troubles me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MacShreach

You do seem to have refined, at least, your standpoint--a good tete-a-tete with Trish will often do that. I believe that you are much more well-meaning than I thought you appeared at first but I think you are still missing a very important point and that is that many TS women don't want to be thought of as 'special', they don't want to be appreciated for being transsexual, they just want to be women and get on with life. That being the case, your attempt to give them special treatment, albeit in a positive way, is often going to be unwelcome. I know it's a paradox, and one that most men here don't even see as it flies over their heads, but you do seem to be deeper and able to give it more profound thought.

The reason I mentioned AIS women, and especially Complete AIS women, is that they are as chromosomally male as a post-operative transsexual woman (excepting those who have other genetic intergender issues like Klinefelter's) yet they are seen as women. Indeed they are often only diagnosed when they want to have a child and can't. That means that really, the only difference between a CAIS woman, who is seen as a woman, and a post-operative transsexual woman, is upbringing--one was raised as a boy (probably) and the other as a girl. I don't think that a few years' conditioning, which many TS women report as feeling uncomfortable with at the time, is justification enough to say TS women are not women. If you think that's defending something that does not need defending, then that's fine, but it's is still my point that all the girls are asking for is NOT to be treated, or seen, differently from any other woman.

I'm not saying that's always going to be easy. But it is an essential step in getting transsexual women to be better accepted and able to live their lives as normal, ordinary girls. If people who like TS women can't do this much for them, then how can the world of sceptics, haters and bible-thumping conservatives ever be persuaded?

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I hear your point loud and clear MacShreach but I think you're missing mine. My point is based on the principle of what I believe and I'm not willing to compromise that for the sake of anyone. Because to do so would mean that I'm lying to the person that I'm with.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone that deals with TS can't view them as special or in some ways different than genetic women. I understand that most transsexuals don't wan to be seen as special and want only to be seen as "female" no different than any other naturally born woman. Accept when it comes to the mans acceptence of them and how he relates to this issue when it comes to the people in his life. She can't be "female" no more "special" that any other but if infact she's not the only TS I've dated then I become a (not my choice of word but the best to make the point) "faggot". My point is those particular women are as unacceptable to me as I would be to them. Because I will not be the only person in the relationship that has to accept the issue of transsexuality.

I never made any indication that I'd treat her any different than I would any other woman (or like a man to be more direct).

I understand the paradox, I am just not one to conform to it. If there is a woman out there for me she'll have to be closer to the understanding that I have or it just simply won't happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dafame

I hear your point loud and clear MacShreach but I think you're missing mine. My point is based on the principle of what I believe and I'm not willing to compromise that for the sake of anyone. Because to do so would mean that I'm lying to the person that I'm with.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone that deals with TS can't view them as special or in some ways different than genetic women. I understand that most transsexuals don't wan to be seen as special and want only to be seen as "female" no different than any other naturally born woman. Accept when it comes to the mans acceptence of them and how he relates to this issue when it comes to the people in his life. She can't be "female" no more "special" that any other but if infact she's not the only TS I've dated then I become a (not my choice of word but the best to make the point) "faggot". My point is those particular women are as unacceptable to me as I would be to them. Because I will not be the only person in the relationship that has to accept the issue of transsexuality.

I never made any indication that I'd treat her any different than I would any other woman (or like a man to be more direct).

I understand the paradox, I am just not one to conform to it. If there is a woman out there for me she'll have to be closer to the understanding that I have or it just simply won't happen.

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I respect where you are, which seems a fair ways from where we began; whether that is because you have reviewed your position, or are expressing it differently, or I am understanding you better...I would have to read the whole thread again, to be honest.

FWIW I don't think you would be a 'faggot' . As I have said, these absolutist positions really have no place. As Trish says, there is a continuum of gender; there is also a continuum of sexuality. I do see where you are coming from and I agree that it is frustrating...the kind of girl you'd be interested in, would not be interested in you because of your previous experience. (Have I got that right?) I don't see any clear way through that minefield. I think some girls are reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there is any chance that it is the 't' that a man is after. :shrug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MacShreach

I respect where you are, which seems a fair ways from where we began; whether that is because you have reviewed your position, or are expressing it differently, or I am understanding you better...I would have to read the whole thread again, to be honest.

FWIW I don't think you would be a 'faggot' . As I have said, these absolutist positions really have no place. As Trish says, there is a continuum of gender; there is also a continuum of sexuality. I do see where you are coming from and I agree that it is frustrating...the kind of girl you'd be interested in, would not be interested in you because of your previous experience. (Have I got that right?) I don't see any clear way through that minefield. I think some girls are reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there is any chance that it is the 't' that a man is after. :shrug

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I'm not exactly sure you mean when you say "if there's a chance that it's the "t" that a man is after? I think you mean the fact that she's transsexual and if that's the case then I'll say you're starting to get an understanding of some of my positions.

It's that attitude that I see a limitation in many girls though. To me I see that as "not looking at the reality of the situation" because if being "reluctant to invest emotionally in a relationship if there's a chance that it is the "t" that a man is after" is what it's about then there isn't any man on this forum that's worthy of the love of one of the girls. In other words its impossible to be a man participating in this forum who isn't here interacting with the girls strictly BECAUSE they're transsexuals.

This is flawed logic to me. Someone on a previous post made a reference to interacial dating as a comparison to something I said in some respect.

That logic would be the same as me as a black man saying "I will not date black women. I will only date white women who I believe are not necessarily racist but white women whom would have never considered dating a black man in the past. Infact it was outside the realm of any possibility. If I ever learn that she has, deal breaker".

When a person logic is flawed (or atleast it's a point of view that's impossible for me to comprehend) I don't deal with them. So I say your interpretation is close but instead my position would be more along the lines of "I would not interested in the type of girl that wouldn't be interested in me because of my previous experience".