Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
I do disagree with you on your last point. The two parties seem to me to be very different in important ways. I don't think, for example, that Gore would have invaded Iraq.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
May I ask you dreamon how many of your opinions I downthumbed? I'm just trying to have a discussion. It'd be more helpful if you tell us what it is about a particular post that you object to and why, rather than downthumbing the whole post.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
I do disagree with you on your last point. The two parties seem to me to be very different in important ways. I don't think, for example, that Gore would have invaded Iraq.
I completely agree. Both parties have been involved in Middle Eastern affairs, but it was an exceedingly bizarre move to attack Iraq to remove Hussein from power. Even when Iraq committed aggression against a neighboring state and gassed a hundred thousand Kurds we did not attempt a regime change. The cost of that decision has been extraordinary. I don't even understand the view that the parties are the same, when frankly they take different positions on so many issues.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
I do disagree with you on your last point. The two parties seem to me to be very different in important ways. I don't think, for example, that Gore would have invaded Iraq.
John Kerry, Joe Biden, Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, John Edwards, Tom Daschle, Maria Cantwell, Jay Rockwell.
All of these Democrats voted yes to the illegal war in Iraq.
The only prominent Dems to vote no were Ted Kennedy and racist Robert Byrd.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dreamon
John Kerry, Joe Biden, Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, John Edwards, Tom Daschle, Maria Cantwell, Jay Rockwell.
All of these Democrats voted yes to the illegal war in Iraq.
The only prominent Dems to vote no were Ted Kennedy and racist Robert Byrd.
There are more Congressmen than prominent ones and the Republicans do own the War in Iraq. It would never even had occurred to Gore to invade Iraq. It took Bush/Cheney wreck the budget with an additional war in the MiddleEast, never mind the people it killed.
In post #41 that I mentioned the War in Iraq was just one issue where the parties large differ. Another is the Affordable Care Act. I’m guessing you don’t like the ACA, but certainly it stands as a significant difference between the parties. Had McCain and Palin won in 2008 we would not have the ACA.
A minor issue of contention between the parties, but one’s that in the news now is the KeyStone Pipeline.
The parties disagree what to do with the immigrant children arriving at our border from Central America. Up until now they largely disagreed on just about every aspect of Immigration.
And the list goes on. But on another topic...
I noticed you downthumbed my post #40 but haven’t yet said why. It was an answer to your question in post #39 and I thought you would’ve agreed with it. It would surprise me if you thought we should fault the Koch brothers and Mr. Steyer for spending their money the way they see fit. So am I right in thinking you downthumbed the post for suggesting we pass stricter campaign finance laws and for finding fault with Citizens United. Then on the other hand, that can’t be it, ‘cause you didn’t downthumb anyone else who suggest the latter. Hmmm I’m puzzled. Oh, I know, you’re just trigger happy. Guess I’m lucky you’re not allowed to carry firearms on the web.
By your response to post #42 I assume you don’t think it would be helpful to share with us what is is about a particular post you find objectionable and why. Am I right about that. If not why?
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
In response to your post dreamon, there is a difference between conceiving an idea and supporting it once that idea has been presented. It was the Bush administration who were hellbent on attacking Iraq and manufactured a case in support of it.
Bush and his cronies argued that Iraq had WMD, that it was trying to obtain uranium in Niger, and that there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11. I have a lot of trouble believing that any Democratic presidential candidate in 2000 would have as commander in chief decided to invade Iraq on such a weak pretext. That includes those who supported the invasion once the administration put together a package of falsified evidence.
What about the respective parties' stances on gay marriage? Or health care? Or taxation? Or spending? Or women's rights, including both abortion and contraception?
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
What about the respective parties' stances on gay marriage?
Neither actively support it, one side says they do, one side says they don't, neither does anything about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
Or health care?
The Republicans invented the system the Democrats took national.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
Or taxation?
They both support higher taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
On spending?
They both support spending more money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
Or women's rights, including both abortion and contraception?
Abortion may be one issue where they differ. Congratulations on finding one minor social issue where they differ.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Gay marriage-Many Republicans support amendments to state constitutions to ban gay marriage. I can't think of any Democrats who have been active in trying to achieve that (maybe you'll be able to find one if you look hard). There are also a ton of interest groups that donate to the Republican party that actively lobby for some of these state initiatives to alter their state constitutions.
Health care- Some Republicans may have helped develop the health care system but when it came time to implement it, there was complete division. Republican presidential candidates even said they would do everything they could to repeal PPACA if elected. Republican activist groups helped to argue the personal mandate was unconstitutional.
Taxes-The parties have historically disagreed on the estate tax, which Republicans call the death tax and want to eliminate. They historically disagree on capital gains tax, which Republicans want to eliminate. Republicans have called for eliminating the dividend tax, calling it a double tax. They also are reluctant to increase the tax rate for the highest tax bracket.
Spending-Republicans have recently called for a balanced budget, despite the fact that Bush helped to increase the national debt significantly. They want to reduce so-called entitlements. They opposed parts of the stimulus package by Obama as well. Democrats would prefer to balance the budget by increasing taxes rather than significantly cutting programs.
When you analyze politics like a five year old, of course everything seems the same.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dreamon
Congratulations on finding one minor social issue where they differ.
I bet most women don't think abortion is a minor social issue.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
I bet most women don't think abortion is a minor social issue.
It's not, but it really is overplayed by the parties.
Since this is something that the parties do "more obviously" differ on it is still brought up at elections...but I really think it's practically a red herring at this point. Every one in politics pretty much understands that during a primary election, people in both parties have to cater somewhat to their extreme ends. With the Republicans that would be with the religious right who view ALL abortions as murder...with the Democrats it's the shrill left who think it's NEVER murder ...even when the kid is practically adult sized already. In those type of cases, in IMHO...it really isn't a women's right issue anymore....and I think most moderates line up somewhere in the middle on this.
But there are tons of Republicans, that during a primary will tote the party line even when you know they don't really mean it...and we know this by things they've said in the past......it's why most politicians have a bit of a waffle in their history.
...and abortions are not going to become illegal again regardless who wins.
...and just for the record, I don't have a problem with abortions...I think they should probably be carried out more often, but I also think at some point in time you are actually killing a human being, but it is sometimes a necessary evil.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
I agree with you on abortion. It's mostly noise now because it's settled law.
The longer the Court's precedent stands the less likely they are to disrupt it. But they have in the past altered the way they interpreted Constitutional issues, the one that comes to mind most is the commerce clause.
It's conceivable that the Supreme Court could at least alter their rulings. Right now, states can pass laws to regulate abortion as long as they are not an undue burden on a woman's right to have an abortion. There is a lot of disagreement over what regulations are unduly burdensome. I can't remember some of them...waiting periods, notifying parents, notifying father of the child, counseling prior to getting the abortion, and some apparently aimed at discouraging at least some women from having an abortion. It's unlikely that the Court ever overturns Roe v. Wade, but I think at least Scalia believes that the right to privacy underpinning the decision is a made up right.
But I agree with you that it's mostly a talking point for their respective bases. The only reason it's not more contested though is because it's been taken out of the political realm and decided by the judiciary (which is more stable and unelected).
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
I want to point out though that dreamon's point was that the party's differences are insignificant. But had there never been an ideological split on abortion, there would not have been a Roe v. Wade. The split continues, but because of the Court's holding it is now only fought at the margins. There are people who stridently oppose the right of women to have an abortion under any circumstance and that is why we've seen laws aimed at curtailing the right (such as informed consent instructions that claim abortion can cause breast cancer).
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
The fact that Obama didn’t set out to dismantle everything George Bush ever done in his presidency goes not one iota toward demonstrating an equivalence between the Democratic and the Republican parties. In fact one may take that to be a significant distinction between the outlook of the two parties. Hell, the Republican Party would dismantle everything the Democrats accomplished going all the way back to and including the New Deal. That Republicans were able to use the filibuster (more times than any time it has ever been used in the past) to roadblock closing Guantanamo, roadblock campaign finance reform, tax reform etc. etc. is hardly evidence that Republicans have no political differences with Democrats. Listening to you one would think Republicans love both Obama and his policies. Tell us, do you think Rand Paul could have closed Guantanamo in 2009 were he president? Do you think McCain would even have wanted to?
Anyone with a brain can see there are deep seated political distinctions between the goals, outlooks and projects of the two major parties. Do you think the Koch brothers flipped a coin to decide which party they wanted to support with their billions?
The system of checks and balances is meant to force compromise, so that the country doesn’t dangerously swerve back and forth, each swing undoing the legislative projects of the prior administration. So yes, when things are well oiled, the actions of the Nation reflect on balance the ambitions of both parties. Inactions are indicators of disagreement. One can safely say there is a lot of disagreement in Washington these days: disagreement that belies the differences between the two major parties.
The current Republican Party (including their Tea Bagger elements--here’s your chance to exercise some PC outrage and downthumb this post) are for undoing The Affordable Care Act. They’re for the privatization of prisons, the privatization of social security, the privatization of public lands for lumbering, mining and fracking. They want to bomb Iranian nuclear power stations and send soldiers into the Ukraine. They’re against same sex marriage, the Dream Act, and Roe v Wade. These are not the deeply help convictions and aspirations of the Democratic party or very many of its subscribers.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dreamon
Abortion may be one issue where they differ. Congratulations on finding one minor social issue where they differ.
This from someone who seems to think the legalization of marihuana is a pressing issue.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
This from someone who seems to think the legalization of marihuana is a pressing issue.
When I have ever said that?
I don't smoke weed anymore, so while I do think it should be legal, it doesn't really matter all that much to me.
Re: Billionaire Koch Brothers Have Given More Than $100 Million to right wing causes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dreamon
When I have ever said that?
I don't smoke weed anymore, so while I do think it should be legal, it doesn't really matter all that much to me.
Didn't say it was a quote did I? But you did start a thread in the Politics/Religion Forum either on the topic of Nancy Grace or the legalization of marihuana. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and opted for the legalization issue.
