You did notice, of course, that in 2007 (for instance), the US gave out $21,197,000,000 in foreign aid?
I don't support everything the US government does, but I damn well think we do a lot better than most other nations.
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You did notice, of course, that in 2007 (for instance), the US gave out $21,197,000,000 in foreign aid?
I don't support everything the US government does, but I damn well think we do a lot better than most other nations.
They are also the biggest pimps in the world and there really aint much we can do about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clind
Oh, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this. The US government is really behind the whoring out of Russian prostitutes, Asian slave trafficking, and whatever bogeymen you have out there in your anonymous country?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silcc69
a couple daisy cutters into some of the places festering with these Muslim terrorists errrr...Somali pirates...would go a long way to signal how "weak" we are. So what if some innocents get killed those people are a death loving culture anyways send them to 72 virgins on an express ticket
Patrick Henry wasn't defending his TV. Killing a thief who doesn't threaten your life is more than shameful, it's immoral. Would you give your own life for a TV? If it's not worth your life, then it's not worth anybody else's life either. Is your freedom, worth your life? If it's worth your own life, then it's defense is worth another's.Quote:
Originally Posted by fred41
Actually phobun, I'm not crying. You presume too much. By the way, no hostages have died in the last decade, up until this week.Quote:
You cry for the families of hostage takers who were killed. But you said nothing for the families of the men held at sea who can't go home, or for those who have died while held hostage.
Why do you suppose the shipping companies don't arm their ships? Why are they willing to pay ransoms. It's because the pirates do not present a significant risk nor even a formidable drain on the pocketbook. It's ironic that those who think everything should be done by private concerns now want the federal government to step in take care of things. But I'm willing to concede that keeping shipping lanes clear is the job of the world's navies.
Look, I'm just saying this is not a happy outcome. The Navy was negotiating with the pirates when the shooting went down. I think it's safe to say the even the Navy negotiators were hoping for a better outcome. Perhaps it's the only way things could've gone down. I don't know. At least no innocent lives have been lost, even though three lives were lost. But those lost lives have immeasurably complicated the scene, and endanger the lives of all future shipping traffic through the region, especially American lives.
I would add in the future why the heck should the pirates ever negotiate with us again? Why should they trust us to negotiate? Why should 1-200 of them get toegther and do a revenge attack on one of our destroyers (if they can find one isolated). Think Pirates cannot pull off something like that. Look at history.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Small fast boats have taken down huge ships before, not just the USS Cole..but navies of the world use torpedo boats, missile boats. Small fast boats armed with not just RPG's but say....Iranian made Katyusha missiles, or long range recoilless rifles (RPG's on steroids). Or going farther back poorer navies would take out huge fleets by setting ships on fire and sailing them into the enemy (I beleive the English did this to the spanish.)
I'll bet you $100 that in the next two years, if we do not see a real government arise in Somalia, that those pirates with actually sink a modern ship of war.
Anyone who thinks we could just waltz into a hostile port without taking some big hits is a fool. We would have to bomb them back...there already in the stone age.. to the ice age before we went in. Then as soon as we leave, the pirates will just come back.
Force is not the answer here. I am generally a war hawk, but this is not the place to apply force it does nothing to help our cause.
The pirates have killed, and they are messing up the merchant ships bringing goods to us and other countries.
Pirates 'kill' hostage in Somalia
Somali pirates, who have been holding a Taiwanese fishing vessel since the middle of last month, have reportedly killed one member of the crew.hiiraan.com/news2_rss/2007/Jun/pirates_kill_hostage_in_somalia.[b]aspx. The 17,000-ton Maersk Alabama was carrying emergency relief to Mombasa, Kenya, at the time it was hijacked, for the Copenhagen-based container shipping group A.P. Moller-Maersk.
These punk ass pirates have done enough, they have already received millioms of dollars for ransoms, and there is no telling what might happen down the road, There are too many sq. miles to cover,and protect those water routes, even if other countries join in...BUT...They need to be stopped, and if killing them is necessary, so be it, those bastards have had a long enough leeway over the years, and will keep on if never punished, they are terrorists, plain and simple. We need to destroy there ports where they work out of, the gangs and radicals running Somalia could care less about the citizens there, they keep all that they steal.
So there has been loss of life at the hands of the pirates, and why should these low life scumbags be left to do what they want?
No one is saying they should be left to do what they want.
What I have been saying is that we need to foster the developement of a strong governmental force in somalia. The last time they had something like that (called the union of Islamic Courts google it) they were able to stop piracy by imposing the death penalty on anyone caught in the act.
Right now Somalia has no real strong government, a federal government which is in effective, an Islamist controlled area, which really only controls barren wasteland anyway, and the northern most part of somalia, acts like it's a independent country.
There needs to be an end to the chaos on the ground in Somalia, and we have to help them to end that chaos. Not with bullets, but withe sensible, and culturally sensitive advice on how to set up a real government
Right now if we wanted to get the pirates about 100 special forces advisors guiding Somali troops, could do the job. This talk of sending in our navy is madness sheer madness.
I would not mind so much if I did not hear politicians on the radio talking like posters on HA
You don't mean people talking like low life scumbags, do you? :)Quote:
I would not mind so much if I did not hear politicians on the radio talking like posters on HA
If somebody tried to rob me w/o trying to kill them then I don't think a thief should be killed. However if the thief is armed and willing to kill the homeowner then well you know what kill or be killed if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Nice observation. Subject line and first couple of posts seem a little uninformed though.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I don't disagree about the US's right to protect itself. But celebrating the killing of 3 human beings (pirates or no pirates) and jesting in their demise lacks any degree of humanitarianism. Taking a life is always an unfortunate act.
The real world does NOT work this way. Someone BREAKS into your home that is already a threat against you and your loved ones. No thief will say "Hey dude , I'm only gonna take this T.V. set and be going O.K.?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Silcc69
...and you say " Cool , grab a sandwich on the way out." A criminal is always one move ahead of you cause they already know what they're willing, and going to do to you. Sometimes there's no time to guess.
Listen..if it's just you, then I say do whatever the fuck you or your conscience want. But if you have to protect family or loved ones than it is safer to err on the side of caution and kill the fucker...cause I don't know about you but my family and whoever I love comes first ..everyone else I can give a rats ass about.
Not protecting your home , family and property to me..is tantamount to giving up your freedom.
Someone did break into our home once when I was a kid. He was swearing, threatening and demanding all sorts of things. He was also drunk and didn't know where he was. After some calm questioning my father figured out where the guy lived and drove him home. That was years ago.
Recently, about two years ago, in the county where I now reside, the newpaper reports "Drunk Shot Breaking & Entering." Turns out, a drunk breaks into some old fart's house. The old fart, who thinks just like you do, grabs and gun and shoots the poor disoriented bastard. The wounded drunk winds up in jail for breaking and entering and the old fart is a local hero.
I know who the real hero is.
That's not really the same thing..and I think you know that......Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
.....and in the old farts case (he's old right)..if he guessed wrong ..he's overpowered and dead.Better story I guess.
So let's see..two living drunks compared to how many defenseless people who were murdered or assaulted in their homes in any major city during the same time frame.
Hey Shonuff..put some pants on for Chrissakes... :D
The point isn't that my story is an analogue of your scenario, just the opposite. You claim to know how the real world works.
Really. I find the world is guided by our responses to the problems it poses. Not everything has to end with a "fucker" (as you prefer to view any one you deem threatening) getting shot or killed. Perhaps your own responses to the world would be less cowardly if you stopped objectifying people; maybe even talk to them before you start waving guns in the air.Quote:
The real world does NOT work this way.
Good job by the SEALs. It's too bad one of them survived though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino Velvet
I see dead people
Yeah the Americans have arrived
i'm sorry, but if you hijack, kidnap and then hold a AK-47 muzzle in someone's back you forfeit your rights.
it simply amazes me how anyone can warp this story into one of US aggression.
We don't pay ransoms because that encourages further kidnapping. The Pirates make 90% of their money off of the ransom. If we don't pay it, they have less of a reason to board our ships. These guys are businessmen.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
May God bless America, and NOBODY ELSE !
Actually, I rarely if ever use a gun..but it is an appropriate tool to defend ones home. Also, I've never really been called a coward before..though I met quite a few in my life...some even hide behind the guise of pacifism.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I never met any cowards. I seen some cowardly behavior and some courageous behavior. Sometimes exhibited by the same person. If you read my post carefully, I didn't call you a coward. But thanks for the compliment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timxxx
So said the French, the Poles, the Russians, the Serbs, etc..etc every time America has come in to save lives. Unfortunately you have to take lives in order to save some. Some people just will never get this through their thick skulls, but those people usually are the ones sniveling and cowering under the bed sheets as the next totalitarian comes for their family.
Spoken like a true expert on sniveling and cowering.
So is it really true? Do you ALWAYS have to take lives to save some, or is that something you just made up in order to sound idiotic?
LOL @ trish what an IGNORANT fucking moron.
DeLuX , do you always blame other poeple for YOUR faults after looking in the mirror? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLuX
having a different opinion doesn't make one an IGNORANT fucking moron.......
Having THAT opinion does. just another stupid fucking liberal that has more sympathy for piece of shit pirates then the innocent man they are threatening to kill. FUCK THEM, i am glad there dead the only thing i am sorry about is that they died instantly, i wish they would have laid there bleeding out while gasping for air.Quote:
Originally Posted by yosi
now I know who is the IGNORANT fucking moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLuX
it's not trish....................... :twisted:
you people are truly sad and i genuinely feel sorry for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by yosi
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Apart from the numerous hijackers and Somali security force members killed in shoot-outs related to hijacking, several innocent people have died prior to this week.
The FV Ching Fong Hwa was hijacked in April 2007, and one Chinese crew member was killed by the pirates on May 28 because the ship's owners failed to meet their ransom demands.
As the pirates boarded the MV Bunga Melati Dua in August 2008, one Filipino crew member was killed.
On September 28, 2008, Vladimir Kolobkov, the captain of the MV Faina, died of a stroke while held hostage by pirates.
After the MV Acton was hijacked in October 2008, three crew members died while held hostage.
During the hijacking of the FV Ekawat Nava 5 in November 2008, the pirates fired on an Indian naval vessel, which returned fire, causing injuries to the Thai crew and the death of at least one Thai civilian.
Given that the pirates often fire machine guns and grenades at the vessels during the attack (one rocket propelled grenade landed unexploded in the captains cabin of a Panamanian cargo ship attacked this week), it is amazing there have not been more deaths.There are estimated to be 230 people, from around the world (many poor Filipinos), held right now by Somali pirates, precisely because multi-million dollar ransoms have not been, or cannot be, paid. These hostages are innocent people with worried families at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Why do you ignore these people with your fatuous explanation?
Several shipping companies are rerouting around South Africa to avoid the horn of Africa altogether... is all of this because shipping companies "are willing to pay ransoms"?You wrote that there have been no other deaths until this week, and you have not even cared to question the validity of this. You chose to believe there were no other deaths because it fit your bias, and ultimately because those deaths of innocent people were unimportant to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
You're a sheep who takes up for pirates.
Oh really?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLuX
trish
A Hot HungAngel
Posts: 3982
DeLuX
Rookie Poster
Posts: 5
The ignorant one is the the rookie barging in here and insulting one of the most intelligent and respected posters on this board.
Furthermore, the fact that this is the internet and you apparently have something you think other people might want to hear you say (a moot point if ever there was one) does not excuse you using foul and abusive language to a lady who has, as always, conducted herself impeccably.
You have your point of view, newbie, and you are entitled to it. But your lack of respect marks you out as an ignorant prick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacShreach
LOL :roll:
As for the substance, attacking pirates' shore settlements will not succeed and will just turn ordinary, financially-motivated criminals into martyrs. Not a smart move. The very last thing we need is the cause to be taken up by politically-motivated terrorists, who will be much more violent; as someone pointed out, a boatload of explosives controlled by a determined suicide crew would have no difficulty sinking even military vessels, and merchant vessels would be easy meat. That outcome has to be avoided.
Shipping companies have been operating a "gentleman's agreement" for many, many years-- pirates take a ship, look after the crew, ransom is paid, everyone is released.
This cosy arrangement has unfortunately fostered increasing levels of piracy. Furthermore, increased naval activity in the sea areas off Somalia has, according to sources published this week, increased the uptick of piracy in the Indian Ocean--apparently the pirates can survive long offshore voyages in search of ships to attack.
There are specialist marine security firms who hire ex-soldiers and marines and offer their services for shipping protection. If the violence escalates, then it is possible that these crews will travel on ships in this area as armed security.
However, we are talking about a lot of shipping, and not all shipowners will pay for protection-- American and European owners might, but will the convenience-flag carriers? This is a real problem because many British, American and European professional seamen work for lines registered in Panama and elsewhere, which cannot be required by Govts other than their own to comply with possible new rules requiring that ships carry security crews. As the pirates travel further and further out to sea to seek easy targets, the area where ships need protection will expand, and the pirates will soon learn to avoid US, UK and French registered ships, if they know they are carrying armed security or can easily call on naval support-- and the target ships will become those registered in Panama, Honduras and other flag-of-convenience states instead; but these ships may very well be carrying British, American or French crew and officers themselves.
Historically, the Merchant Marine of all nations have been reluctant to carry firearms-- it's not their job and they are not trained for it. Furthermore, seamen working for US, UK and other registered flag ships, know perfectly well that they have colleagues working on flag-of-convenience ships, and have probably worked on those themselves in the past and may do again. The last thing they want is an escalation of violence against any flag registered shipping.
This is not a simple matter of being gung-ho Team America, and in the end the only solution will be the emplacement of strong government in Somalia and the other pirate rats' nests (there are quite a few) as Brenda says.
Bear in mind that there are currently over 20 hostage ships anchored off Somalia right now, and another, Indian registered, was taken this morning. There are over 200 crew currently being held hostage there. Whatever happens now, we have to be very careful not to cause these people to be killed.
No need for the thanks...I didn't call you anything either. Just some pacifists. I don't know you personally...so I can't judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
..some of the posts are getting way hot on here though. Maybe this thread should be moved to the political section. Anyway, I'm out.
Peace :wink:
A very good book to read about combat and killing, and how being obliged to kill effects a decent man:
http://www.history-books.us/wp-conte...-old-breed.jpg
It's a book that silences the chatter of those lucky enough to be far removed from violence. Not much there to comfort either the bloodthirsty jingoist or the prissy pacifist.
I think one needs a pretty strong justification to take a criminal's life, but it looks like it was met here. The Navy appeared to use the same standard rules of engagement that police use in hostage standoffs. Try to negotiate and reason with the hostage takers, give them a chance to give up, but when the hostage takers point a gun at the hostage, that's the trigger point. And that's how it went down, according to the news reports. I doubt the Navy was shooting just to make a point.
Besides, in the long run, the shipping industry cannot afford to pay 2 million for each ship that passes by Somalia. Let's get real.
With most of these things there's a tipping point; it remains to be seen if that has been reached. I doubt if it'll be the ransom that does it, it will be the level of violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrF
Personally I am in favour of armed security squads on these ships for defence in international waters, but it's a very delicate matter and there are a lot of hostages being held right now.
FWIW I can't imagine what else the US Navy, or any other Navy, could have done in this situation.