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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
Well that's okay. You're not a racist, just a xenophobe. Are you one of those people who goes overseas and insists on eating exactly what you eat at home? Or maybe one of the two-thirds of Americans who don't even have a passport?
I’m not any kind of “-phobe” Flighty. Who are these people who spend their lives trembling in fear? I’m a magnificent apex predator, an alpha male in the alpha city of the alpha state of the alpha nation on the alpha planet of the alpha galaxy. I’m a force of nature, the reckoning of the unbeliever, the arbiter of good and evil. Prostrate yourself before me and tremble.
But yeah I don’t care much for spicy food.
I also don’t much feel compelled to explain why I prefer the company of my fellow Americans, seems kinda self-explanatory unless you’re one of those people who insist there’s some obscure benefit to inviting foreigners across your border to live off government charity and rape your women.
I actually have two passports now. Thought I’d misplaced it so a few months ago got a new one. That was a $400 mistake, the old one turned up in my laundry room.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
I also don’t much feel compelled to explain why I prefer the company of my fellow Americans, seems kinda self-explanatory unless you’re one of those people who insist there’s some obscure benefit to inviting foreigners across your border to live off government charity and rape your women.
So how many immigrants from 3rd world countries are living in your neighbourhood in St George Utah? It's funny how exaggerated concerns about the impact of immigrants tend to rise in inverse proportion to the likelihood of actually encountering them.
It's a good thing you are not a bigot though.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
But yeah I don’t care much for spicy food.
I didn't read the rest of it. But this is highly lame. Korean food? Mexican food? Indian food? Sichuan Chinese food? Yeah better stick to hotdogs and hamburgers.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
But yeah I don’t care much for spicy food.
https://redfortcuisine.com/menu/
Apparently for good Korean food you got to go to Washington Utah. But Indian food is available in St. George. Since you don't like spicy food I recommend you start out with some daal soup. Then you can either go with the Chicken Makhani or Lamb Rogan Josh. Get a side of garlic naan. Beer-your choice but get something imported. I noticed they're even carrying some of your local bullshit beers so they're obviously making an effort.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
I didn't read the rest of it. But this is highly lame. Korean food? Mexican food? Indian food? Sichuan Chinese food? Yeah better stick to hotdogs and hamburgers.
Food can often be a substitute topic for negative views on race. If we are going to get personal, many years ago when looking for accommodation in London I spoke to a landlady who described the room on offer but added that 'cooking curry is not allowed' or words to that effect, but I do recall the reason why 'or this will become like the black country'. I hung up and looked for a room elsewhere.
So when an American attacks multi-cuturalism they are, in effect attacking America. They might as well say it is 'UnAmerican' to eat spicy food and related ingedients, and it isn't long before the very same people -like Bannon Deux Chemises- cherry pick their Old Europeans, and no it doesn't include the Jews, who are not and never can be 'Legacy Americans'.
In the UK, this often takes the form of people objecting to Halal butchery as an expression of their anti-Muslim views, and when asked if they also include Kosher butchery, the answer is yes, even though they are happy to endorse Bannon's definition of 'Legacy' as Judeo-Christian Civilization, though in the current case of your American Nigel, not even Old Europe with its Judeo-Christian Civilization defines his America, presumably a country made by Davy Crockett, Paul Revere and John Birch.
So don't tell him doughnuts by origin (like Fish 'n Chips in the UK) is Jewish food, the impact on local law enforcement, even in Utah could be devastating.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
So how many immigrants from 3rd world countries are living in your neighbourhood in St George Utah? It's funny how exaggerated concerns about the impact of immigrants tend to rise in inverse proportion to the likelihood of actually encountering them.
It's a good thing you are not a bigot though.
I don't know every single person in the 'hood, but most of them are good old home-grown Americans of assorted European heritage. There are a couple of Asian families around who mostly keep to themselves. If you venture into some of the more affordable areas of town, you will definitely find immigrants. We have a lot of Pacific Islanders here, relative to other cities - Samoans and Tongans mainly. The Mormons bring them. In fact, anywhere the Mormons have missionaries, which is everywhere, you'll find representatives of those races in Utah, though not necessarily in SG - it's a very hot climate and some people can't hang. The islanders like the climate.
How am I a bigot, Flighty, I'm not following your chain of reasoning. It's bigotry to have social preferences? I'm a bigot for preferring to spend my time among people with similar interests, backgrounds, and values? Do I have to move to a housing project in Detroit and take up the bongos to not be a bigot? See, it's this kind of liberal "logic" that leaves the rest of us facepalming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
Apparently for good Korean food you got to go to Washington Utah. But Indian food is available in St. George. Since you don't like spicy food I recommend you start out with some daal soup. Then you can either go with the Chicken Makhani or Lamb Rogan Josh. Get a side of garlic naan. Beer-your choice but get something imported. I noticed they're even carrying some of your local bullshit beers so they're obviously making an effort.
I may very well look into that, Bronco. I'm mostly a meat and potatoes guy. I do eat ethnic food but I usually inquire about the spiciness level before I order. Some people seem to get a real kick out of hot and spicy, I'm just not one of those people, my digestive system doesn't appreciate when I get too adventurous. I, uh, AM allowed to have a personal preference on food, right? Whew, that's a relief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
Food can often be a substitute topic for negative views on race. If we are going to get personal, many years ago when looking for accommodation in London I spoke to a landlady who described the room on offer but added that 'cooking curry is not allowed' or words to that effect, but I do recall the reason why 'or this will become like the black country'. I hung up and looked for a room elsewhere.
So when an American attacks multi-cuturalism they are, in effect attacking America. They might as well say it is 'UnAmerican' to eat spicy food and related ingedients, and it isn't long before the very same people -like Bannon Deux Chemises- cherry pick their Old Europeans, and no it doesn't include the Jews, who are not and never can be 'Legacy Americans'.
In the UK, this often takes the form of people objecting to Halal butchery as an expression of their anti-Muslim views, and when asked if they also include Kosher butchery, the answer is yes, even though they are happy to endorse Bannon's definition of 'Legacy' as Judeo-Christian Civilization, though in the current case of your American Nigel, not even Old Europe with its Judeo-Christian Civilization defines his America, presumably a country made by Davy Crockett, Paul Revere and John Birch.
So don't tell him doughnuts by origin (like Fish 'n Chips in the UK) is Jewish food, the impact on local law enforcement, even in Utah could be devastating.
Aw hell, for a minute there I actually thought it was okay to eat what I want.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
How am I a bigot, Flighty, I'm not following your chain of reasoning. It's bigotry to have social preferences? I'm a bigot for preferring to spend my time among people with similar interests, backgrounds, and values? Do I have to move to a housing project in Detroit and take up the bongos to not be a bigot? See, it's this kind of liberal "logic" that leaves the rest of us facepalming.
You are obviously prepared to believe every negative stereotype about people who are different from you without much need for evidence. In fact, you don't seem able to conceive of them other than in terms of those stereotypes.
If you say you don't want immigrants because they are allegedly dirty, lazy, criminal and generally weird then you are not expressing a cultural preference - you indulging in bigotry. Are you really so different from your father, other than that you are more careful about what you say when not posting anonymously on the internet?
It's funny that when challenged you always come back to this argument that you shouldn't have to do things you don't like. That is just a straw man. How exactly are immigrants forcing you to do things you don't like? Do you think they want to pass laws forcing you to eat spicy food or stop watching American sports?
All we are saying is that you should stop making ridiculous derogatory generalisations about other cultures and stop rationalising the actions of racists. How is it that you interpret that as demanding that you give up your preferred lifestyle?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
[URL] Beer-your choice but get something imported. I noticed they're even carrying some of your local bullshit beers so they're obviously making an effort.
Don't you know that only pretentious cosmopolitan liberals drink imported beers, bronco? Real Americans drink Bud, Miller and Coors.
I think Nick's inspiration must be this character from Dr Strangelove.
“It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids, without the knowledge of the individual, certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.” Sterling Hayden - Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY
I wonder what he thinks about multi-grain bread. A high-fibre diet certainly sounds like some nefarious liberal plot to corrupt the American digestive system. What next - no Coke for breakfast?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
You are obviously prepared to believe every negative stereotype about people who are different from you without much need for evidence. In fact, you don't seem able to conceive of them other than in terms of those stereotypes.
If you say you don't want immigrants because they are allegedly dirty, lazy, criminal and generally weird then you are not expressing a cultural preference - you indulging in bigotry. Are you really so different from your father, other than that you are more careful about what you say when not posting anonymously on the internet?
It's funny that when challenged you always come back to this argument that you shouldn't have to do things you don't like. That is just a straw man. How exactly are immigrants forcing you to do things you don't like? Do you think they want to pass laws forcing you to eat spicy food or stop watching American sports?
All we are saying is that you should stop making ridiculous derogatory generalisations about other cultures and stop rationalising the actions of racists. How is it that you interpret that as demanding that you give up your preferred lifestyle?
You really think I just do whatever I want, Flighty? Maybe I do now, but that's because I've been working my ass off for decades to put myself in that position. And now you think I should take the word of a bunch of brainwashed college children and their political enablers that I'm living my life wrong? I'm guilty of something awful for working hard, obeying the law, building a business, and generally behaving responsibly, so now I need the guidance of street criminals and teenagers?
Class warfare is reality, Flighty. Do you think we're making progress? There's MUCH MORE RACISM NOW than there ever was before the George Floyd incident. And there's zero talk of partisanship on the Republican side of the aisle now that we've been forced to reckon with the fact that progressives are immune to reason.
The basis of class warfare is pretty simple. Joe Responsible educates himself, works hard, trusts his elders and the system, and ends up, in mid-life, highly successful and financially independent because of the responsible choices and sacrifices he's made.
Johnny Dipshit does as he pleases. He's a problem child, a narcissist, and oh he has a good time with it. But it leads to a life of poverty and legal problems.
Then one day Johnny Dipshit looks at Joe Responsible and thinks he wants what Joe's got. He's a human, he breathes, he was born, shouldn't he have the nice house in the suburbs, the late-model vehicles, the 9/10 wife and 2.5 kids? This is when progressivism says we need to take some of what Joe Responsible's got and give it to Johnny Dipshit until both of them can live in an apartment and drive a Hyundai. Conservatism says fuck Johnny Dipshit, he's a fucking dipshit.
And see, Flighty, I've been Johnny Dipshit, and now I'm Joe Responsible. The reason I was able to climb that ladder is because when I was Johnny Dipshit and took a hard look at Joe Responsible, I realized I was the problem and that I needed to get MY shit together. I didn't go out on the corner holding up a sign demanding someone give me some of Joe Responsible's shit. I went to work.
If you can't see the moral of the story I don't know what to tell you. There's never going to be a time when I'm going to say people are living in poverty because the system isn't fair. The system is 100% neutral.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
All we are saying is that you should stop making ridiculous derogatory generalisations about other cultures and stop rationalising the actions of racists. How is it that you interpret that as demanding that you give up your preferred lifestyle?
And oh yeah, Flighty, on the topic of racism, I'm not really interested in hearing more of your racism accusations until you accept MY challenge, issued to both Stavros and Bronco, neither of whom have responded, and now to you, to tell me exactly what the hell racism you're talking about. Give me an example. Of systemic racism. In the USA. Just one. And then we can talk more about racism.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
MY challenge, issued to Stavros and Bronco, neither of whom have responded, and now to you, to tell me exactly what the hell racism you're talking about. Give me an example. Of systemic racism. In the USA. Just one. And then we can talk more about racism.
There is a simple reason why I do not respond to your posts. When you claimed Sandy Hook was a 'false flag' event and I was able to use factual evidence to refute the ingedients of your fantasy, you rejected the truth for a fantasy that merely reinforces your prejudice.
Why should I engage with someone who so publicly and so mercilessly gloats over the pain of bereaved parents?
In one and the same post you have claimed there is no racism in America while demonstrating that there is -but were I to point out the existence of racism in the language and imagery you have used in your own posts, you would deny it.
We see and hear this garbage every day, people in the media and politics making inflammatory remarks to get attention (or in Murdoch's case, click-paying customers), whether it is the Greene in DC or Tucker Carlson, or Piers Morgan here or Nigel Farage-Farage: it is all vapid bullshit with no substance designed to undermine the legitimacy of representative democracy, to weaken people's faith in the Truth, to grind the machinery of Government to a halt.
And for what? To appease Cry-Baby Trump? To sow the seeds of a counter-Revolution? Meanwhile the bridges are not-quite falling down; the reservoir walls are just holding; the pot-holes in the road getting larger; the school-house leaking in the rain; and debt feeding debt feeding debt that has become a taboo subject- but hey, I expect you to reject the Truth and Carry on Lying, it's what you do, with no concern for the damage it may cause.
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quo...n-43-74-97.jpg
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
There is a simple reason why I do not respond to your posts. When you claimed Sandy Hook was a 'false flag' event and I was able to use factual evidence to refute the ingedients of your fantasy, you rejected the truth for a fantasy that merely reinforces your prejudice.
Why should I engage with someone who so publicly and so mercilessly gloats over the pain of bereaved parents?
In one and the same post you have claimed there is no racism in America while demonstrating that there is -but were I to point out the existence of racism in the language and imagery you have used in your own posts, you would deny it.
We see and hear this garbage every day, people in the media and politics making inflammatory remarks to get attention (or in Murdoch's case, click-paying customers), whether it is the Greene in DC or Tucker Carlson, or Piers Morgan here or Nigel Farage-Farage: it is all vapid bullshit with no substance designed to undermine the legitimacy of representative democracy, to weaken people's faith in the Truth, to grind the machinery of Government to a halt.
And for what? To appease Cry-Baby Trump? To sow the seeds of a counter-Revolution? Meanwhile the bridges are not-quite falling down; the reservoir walls are just holding; the pot-holes in the road getting larger; the school-house leaking in the rain; and debt feeding debt feeding debt that has become a taboo subject- but hey, I expect you to reject the Truth and Carry on Lying, it's what you do, with no concern for the damage it may cause.
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quo...n-43-74-97.jpg
You're delusional if you think you've ever won an argument, Stavros, let alone with me. Sandy Hook was a hoax. I made the case in this thread - http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/sho...Room-NO-SCRUBS - and sent you running away like an 11-year-old crack dealer. I shut you down so hard that you actually refused to speak to me anymore, like a child. No surprise considering your child-like argument that the "massacre" happened - "Why would they lie?" being pretty much the full extent of it. Folding up your tent and refusing to argue anymore isn't how debates are won. I'll totally have the same debate again with you right now if you want, Stavros, that's how strongly I feel about it.
And you wouldn't know the truth if it were a 12-inch BBC pushing past your tonsils and tickling your solar plexus. I mean I get it, you read the liberal media and it tells you everything you need to hear - nothing is your fault, it's the system. It rings true because you're weak, Stavros, you can't break through your confirmation bias to the critical-thinking plateau. The truth is that everything is your fault and you'll always be a miserable bastard who loses arguments with me unless you get your shit together.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
And oh yeah, Flighty, on the topic of racism, I'm not really interested in hearing more of your racism accusations until you accept MY challenge, issued to both Stavros and Bronco, neither of whom have responded, and now to you, to tell me exactly what the hell racism you're talking about. Give me an example. Of systemic racism. In the USA. Just one. And then we can talk more about racism.
Here's two for starters.
1. Black Americans are over 3 times as likely as whites to be killed during a police encounter. Note that we are talking about percentages of those having a police encounter, so the explanation can't be that blacks are more likely to be doing crimes.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hs...ths-disparity/
2. Black drivers are 20% more likely to be pulled over by the police. Interestingly, the disparity is lower after dark when it is harder to tell the driver's skin colour. When stopped, they are searched 1.5 to 2 times more than white drivers.
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publi...by-police.html
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
I'll totally have the same debate again with you right now if you want, Stavros, that's how strongly I feel about it.
But you don't debate, you stake out a position and defend it, even when your assertions are shown to be false. It is not for me to make the calculation which of us has 'won' an argument, the mere fact that you subscribe to the obscene, offensive rubbish concerning Sandy Hook undermines your position but it is for others to make the judgment which of us is right, and so far, nobody has supported your views.
One small point -the reason I don't offer links to the Telegraph and The Times is due to their articles being locked behind a paywall that I am not willing to enter via subscription, and the same is true of the New York Times. I was a regular reader of the Telegraph before its bilionaire owner(s) locked me out, and have also been an occasional reader of the Spectator, watch clips from Fox News, and am also a reglar reader of anti-left, Establishment BBC here in the UK, so there are practical reasons why it is wrong to imply I only get my news and views from the Liberal media. But I doubt this will mean anything to you, as you have summed me up for your own purposes, and I am therefore just a label rather than a thinking, and sometimes critical observer of the scene I was once a small part of.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
If you can't see the moral of the story I don't know what to tell you. There's never going to be a time when I'm going to say people are living in poverty because the system isn't fair. The system is 100% neutral.
If the system is neutral then how come a person's economic position in the US is so strongly correlated with their parent's economic position? Why is it more so than in other developed countries that have less inequality? And why is it more so than in the past?
https://voxeu.org/article/intergenerational-mobility-us
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioe..._United_States
Attachment 1355671
Do you actually have any views that are not based on crude generalisations and stereotypes, that are supported by proper evidence?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
You're delusional if you think you've ever won an argument, Stavros, let alone with me.
Self-assessments are not worth much, dude, especially from a self-admitted egotist. Any fool can convince themselves they won an argument if they refuse to accept any objective standard of evidence. It's just a matter of thick-skinned stubbornness.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
But you don't debate, you stake out a position and defend it, even when your assertions are shown to be false.
There have been a few occasions where I haven't responded to something false he wrote and it wasn't even out of laziness. It was just a sense of pure futility. Something akin to the beginning stages of major depressive disorder. :tongue:
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
Here's two for starters.
1. Black Americans are over 3 times as likely as whites to be killed during a police encounter. Note that we are talking about percentages of those having a police encounter, so the explanation can't be that blacks are more likely to be doing crimes.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hs...ths-disparity/
2. Black drivers are 20% more likely to be pulled over by the police. Interestingly, the disparity is lower after dark when it is harder to tell the driver's skin colour. When stopped, they are searched 1.5 to 2 times more than white drivers.
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publi...by-police.html
I'll tell you the #1 way to survive an encounter with the police, Flighty - don't be a criminal.
Barring that, there are still other ways. You can follow lawful orders from the officer. You can volunteer information instead of forcing him to drag it out of you. You can not reach for a weapon. You can make it clear that you have no intention of reaching for a weapon by keeping your hands in view. You can address the officer with respect instead of contempt. You can cooperate with the investigation.
There is absolutely no question that blacks have a harder time dealing with police than whites. Video of blacks behaving completely inappropriately during police encounters is all over the internet. One begins to wonder if it might not be a black cultural issue rather than a systemic racism issue when one views enough of these videos.
Regarding more black drivers being pulled over and searched, well, it seems like they're not going far enough with that at only 20% more. A random black person is in fact 8 times more likely to be a criminal than a random white person. Statistically. And I realize the popular liberal stance is that police should be handicapped by not being allowed to use statistics in their enforcement efforts. Why? Don't we all agree that less crime is a goal worth pursuing?
If there were 4 black gangster-types riding up and down my street in some hoopty, I would FULLY expect the police to fabricate some reason to pull that car over and find out what the hell they're doing there. Why, because I hate black people? Not at all. If they were 4 black men wearing business suits and driving a Volvo I'd think nothing of it. But in this case I'm 100% sure they have no legitimate reason to be on my street. Liberals would say I must ignore that logic. But logic says I must ignore those liberals.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
But you don't debate, you stake out a position and defend it, even when your assertions are shown to be false. It is not for me to make the calculation which of us has 'won' an argument, the mere fact that you subscribe to the obscene, offensive rubbish concerning Sandy Hook undermines your position but it is for others to make the judgment which of us is right, and so far, nobody has supported your views.
I don't need support for my views in this forum, Stavros, we all know exactly what the paradigm is here, liberals vs me.
I made a very cogent point-by-point argument regarding why I believe Sandy Hook was a hoax perpetrated by an insular group of gun-control fanatics, and you failed to address even one of my many points. Instead you argued something about there being two Veronicas among the victims or something of that nature - something TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT (and ultimately undisputed) FACTS I HAD BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION. Yeah, I sent you scurrying away from that argument in a hurry when you realized there was no counterargument to most of what I presented. It's okay, Stavros, nobody really wins an internet argument...I mean unless you can actually make the other person publicly proclaim that he's never speaking to you again, that's a pretty solid W by internet standards.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
Not sure from where your questions arise, Flighty. Are you saying it's unusual that a person's station in life should be the same as his parents? I'm not gonna lie, I'm worth a little more than my dad now. But for the most part we have followed very similar paths in life - which to me seems like it should be no surprise to anyone.
You know, Flighty, I think my main motivation in life was always to prove to my father that I could be the man he was. Having accomplished that, I lost the motivation to push further up the ladder of success, I'm comfortable here, on my old man's level. It's not in me to be some jet-setting corporate overlord, I'm a small business owner just like my father was.
You can pluck any human being out of any one of those statistic blocks on that graphic and that person can be successful in the USA if he simply lives responsibly. In some families that value takes hold more than in others - in some cultures it's more prevalent than others. But there's one thing all the families at the top of the economic food chain have in common, and that's a long history of living responsibly.
There are economic classes, Flighty, what are you going to do about that? It's hard to move from class to class because the behaviors learned from your family are likely going to be the behaviors required to survive in their economic class. But social mobility in the USA can be done and is done all the time, by exceptional individuals with the motivation to do it.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
I'll tell you the #1 way to survive an encounter with the police, Flighty - don't be a criminal.
Barring that, there are still other ways. You can follow lawful orders from the officer. You can volunteer information instead of forcing him to drag it out of you. You can not reach for a weapon. You can make it clear that you have no intention of reaching for a weapon by keeping your hands in view. You can address the officer with respect instead of contempt. You can cooperate with the investigation.
There is absolutely no question that blacks have a harder time dealing with police than whites. Video of blacks behaving completely inappropriately during police encounters is all over the internet. One begins to wonder if it might not be a black cultural issue rather than a systemic racism issue when one views enough of these videos.
Regarding more black drivers being pulled over and searched, well, it seems like they're not going far enough with that at only 20% more. A random black person is in fact 8 times more likely to be a criminal than a random white person. Statistically. And I realize the popular liberal stance is that police should be handicapped by not being allowed to use statistics in their enforcement efforts. Why? Don't we all agree that less crime is a goal worth pursuing?
Your entire argument is built on circular reasoning. The police would not be harassing people unless they were doing something wrong. Therefore, anyone harassed (or worse) by police must have done something wrong.
You mean videos like the Rodney King beating? I guess must have he asked for it by not being sufficiently respectful.
I'm surprised you haven't taken your argument to it's logical conclusion. Why not just get rid of the presumption of innocence for black defendants? After all, they are statistically likely to be guilty.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
Regarding more black drivers being pulled over and searched, well, it seems like they're not going far enough with that at only 20% more. A random black person is in fact 8 times more likely to be a criminal than a random white person. Statistically. And I realize the popular liberal stance is that police should be handicapped by not being allowed to use statistics in their enforcement efforts. Why? Don't we all agree that less crime is a goal worth pursuing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
What I am is anti-lockdown. Anti-mask, anti-travel restriction, anti-mandate. I don't care if millions of people die, hell, I don't care if BILLIONS of people die. There are 8 billion people on the planet, half of that would be objectively better. We've identified the at-risk demographic. They should be in quarantine and taking personal responsibility for their survival, letting the rest of us get on with life, it's their problem.
I should add that your attitude toward the rights of black people is glaringly inconsistent with your attitude toward your own rights. You insist on your right to do as you like regardless of society's interest in limiting the spread of a contagious disease, but you are happy for the rights of black individuals to be subordinated to the goal of reducing crime.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
Not sure from where your questions arise, Flighty. Are you saying it's unusual that a person's station in life should be the same as his parents? I'm not gonna lie, I'm worth a little more than my dad now. But for the most part we have followed very similar paths in life - which to me seems like it should be no surprise to anyone.
My point is simply that the playing field is far from level. If you are born into a wealthy family it is hard not to be rich, no matter how stupid you are (eg Donald Trump, Jared Kushner). If you are born into a poor family the dice are loaded against you. A few may succeed, but statistically it's a low probability. If the government can do things to level the playing field (eg assistance to poor families, taxing big inheritances), then why should it not do that rather than just accepting the situation as if it were God-given?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
There have been a few occasions where I haven't responded to something false he wrote and it wasn't even out of laziness. It was just a sense of pure futility. Something akin to the beginning stages of major depressive disorder. :tongue:
I sometimes ask myself why respond at all, rather than ignoring him until he goes away? I guess there's a few reasons:
1. Arguing is addictive.
2. Making a good rebuttal is satisfying in it's own right, and a good skill to practice.
3. There is small chance that some other reader might be influenced by his arguments.
4. Despite his bluster, I know the arrows sometimes strike home. The giveaway is that he drops the point and shifts to another line of argument, and often gets a bit snarky and defensive.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
I sometimes ask myself why respond at all, rather than ignoring him until he goes away?
You probably know the line from one of Judith Wright's famous poems 'and there all a world I made in me' -only her celebration of pregnancy here gives birth to a monster of his own making. Once someone has convinced themselves of their own invincibility, tragedy must surely follow -the only way is down. Immunity of the body becoming a solipsism of the self. The mere fact that I trashed every one of his bogus claims about Sandy Hook is in itself unacceptable to him, and I would not be surprised if he questions the facts about the Holocaust or thinks slavery wasn't all that bad.
Not holding my breath here, and about to go away for Christmas and the New Year anyway, for the music, the art, and the convivial conversations with intelligent people over well-cooked meals. Im anfang war die essen!
I wish everyone a Christmas and New Year of peace and serenity, of warmth of heart and hope.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
I should add that your attitude toward the rights of black people is glaringly inconsistent with your attitude toward your own rights. You insist on your right to do as you like regardless of society's interest in limiting the spread of a contagious disease, but you are happy for the rights of black individuals to be subordinated to the goal of reducing crime.
To say I'm happy about it is really just taking my very objective attitude toward the matter and trying to make something offensive out of it. You don't live here, Flighty, so maybe you actually aren't aware that we have a gang problem in this country. And a growing street crime epidemic. And an increasingly obtuse cadre of progressive legislators who are enabling the entire mess by pushing us to defund our police and handcuff them in a variety of other ways.
Now we definitely DO HAVE a police brutality problem in this country. Any swinging dick with a high school diploma and a clean criminal record can be a cop in most USA jurisdictions. With that kind of gold employment standard, it shouldn't be a big surprise that the Law Enforcement system in general has degenerated into just as much of a criminal enterprise as that against which it's intended to protect us. Some places in this country, if a hit-man is after you, it's just as likely a cop as a thug.
Nonetheless police officers and the rule of law must be respected. You see the results of not doing so in nearly every major Democrat-controlled metropolitan area in the country right now - NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, all in chaos, out of control, all these cities are going to have to literally be tamed like wild west mining camps now. IF we ever get back to sane reasoning about our need for Law Enforcement as a society again. Good or bad, we have to accept it and try to force it to be as good as we can.
But my point is, if black people are committing most of the crimes, why can't police look at that as a clue? Oh, a bodega on Grape Street was robbed at gunpoint again? It's probably one of the Grape Street Crips like it was the last 19 times but I'm going to go shake down a few white people in the suburbs for info. No, wrong, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and eats crackers, it's a goddamn duck.
I agree it's offensive - to publicly say, okay, police are going to start solving crimes by first looking around for any young black thugs in the area. So they don't say it, they just do it. That's the source of your statistical anomaly.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
But my point is, if black people are committing most of the crimes, why can't police look at that as a clue?
That is not true. In 2019, 60% of those arrested for violent crimes in the US were white and 35% were black. For property crimes, 68% were white and 28% were black. So if nothing is known about the suspect, it is about twice as likely to be a white person.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ables/table-43
It is true that 51% of those arrested for murder were black; however, the great majority were black-on-black murders. In cases where the perpetrator is known, 81% of white victims were killed by another white person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_a..._United_States
Obviously the per capita offending rates are much higher for blacks, but if you were to get murdered, assaulted or robbed it is still much more likely to be by a white person than a black person.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
That's because there are more whites than blacks in the USA, Flighty, are you really special enough to need that spelled out for you?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
There have been a few occasions where I haven't responded to something false he wrote and it wasn't even out of laziness. It was just a sense of pure futility. Something akin to the beginning stages of major depressive disorder. :tongue:
It's really got to that point all over, hasn't it? Just when you lower your expectations to the point where it seems impossible to over-estimate him, he outdoes himself.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Time for a simple IQ test:
1. Are these two statements logically equivalent (yes/no)?
(a) A black person is more likely to be convicted of a crime than the rest of the population.
(b) A crime if more likely to be committed by a black person than the rest of the population.
2. African-Americans account for one-third of violent and property crimes in US and 12% of the population. How many times more likely is it that a random African- American will commit a crime than the rest of the population?
3. African-Americans account for 1% of the population of Utah. Would it make sense for the Utah police to focus their crime investigations predominantly on African-Americans?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
Time for a simple IQ test:
1. Are these two statements logically equivalent (yes/no)?
(a) A black person is more likely to be convicted of a crime than the rest of the population.
(b) A crime if more likely to be committed by a black person than the rest of the population.
2. African-Americans account for one-third of violent and property crimes in US and 12% of the population. How many times more likely is it that a random African- American will commit a crime than the rest of the population?
3. African-Americans account for 1% of the population of Utah. Would it make sense for the Utah police to focus their crime investigations predominantly on African-Americans?
At last a coherent argument from a lefty on this board. One that ignores the simple argument of proportion that easily rebuts it, but coherent.
Obviously where you are makes all the difference, Flighty. Around here, it’s true, very few blacks live here. Don’t know if it’s the heat, the Mormons, the location, or just the overwhelming whiteness of the place, but blacks stay away in droves.
Tell you what they do like this place for though - victimizing people. Before Utah passed a law against printing someone’s mugshot before they’re convicted, our local news was lousy with black faces from LA, Vegas, and other crime-ridden cities west of here. They come here for the easy pickings but often leave in the passenger seat of an extradition van, our cops don’t fuck around.
And hey, sometimes it’s Mexicans. But most often it’s young black males with gang affiliations. We have some homegrown white crime too - the usual blend of white-collar theft, domestic violence, and drunken antics. But if it’s a good old-fashioned robbery, burglary, rape, or murder, literally half the time it’s a young black gangsta who doesn’t live here, selling drugs or running prostitutes out of a cheap motel room.
Again Flighty, all I can tell you is, you have to live here to understand the extent of the crime problem rooted in black hip-hop culture.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
At last a coherent argument from a lefty on this board. One that ignores the simple argument of proportion that easily rebuts it, but coherent.
In the exam question 1, a and b are not logically equivalent. Tell us why.
Race is a terrible proxy for investigating crime when compared to most facts.
Consider that you have a minority group where each individual is statistically 3x more likely than the average member of the population to have committed a crime. Now weigh this against the statistical increase in likelihood that someone committed a particular crime based on any piece of evidence. If it's a murder and you're canvassing the neighborhood, how much more likely is a person with blood on their shirt to have committed the crime than a random member of said minority group? Or a person who is seen having left the particular house in question? Or a person who knew the murdered victim and was heard threatening them a week prior?
In the last example, this evidence by itself would not get you anywhere near a burden of proof to convict someone. And yet, they are probably more than a 1000x more likely to have committed the murder than a random member of the overrepresented minority group. Let's say you find car owners are more than 3x as likely to commit a crime. Does that mean you discount non car owners? Does it mean there is much evidence against a random car owner? No and no.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
You might think if a minority group is overrepresented by a certain factor then the average member of that group warrants attention in proportion to that factor. But the average member of the public, whether in that group or not, is very unlikely to have committed any particular crime. Even the weakest piece of particular evidence swallows any difference in rates of commission between groups.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
Race is a terrible proxy for investigating crime when compared to most facts.
Okay, Columbo, what you're basically talking about there is TV crime, where there's a detective following a chain of clues, maybe got some pictures on a peg-board, rifling through a stack of gun-store receipts or a box full of hotel registries or something. Most crime isn't that complicated. Most crime, it was the Jesus-bearded guy living in the U-Haul behind Walmart who swore vengeance at you for stealing his mother's kidney and is now wearing your shoes and texting your friends on your cellphone asking them to mail gift cards to a post office box to save you from mob vengeance over horse-racing debts. Or the guy with the claw-marks on his face who matches the DNA profile from under your fingernails. Or the guy who outright posted the entire crime on Facebook.
Maybe you guys live in more diverse places than me, hell, it's almost certain you do. But I mean seriously, in the real world, around here, you see a young black guy dressed like a hoodlum, he's got no real reason to be here, he's looking for a crime of opportunity. We have some young black people around here, mostly students at the local university, but they don't have any problems, they dress for and participate in polite society and nobody thinks twice about the fact they're black. They don't become suspects for crimes based on being black, if anything they are treated with social deference because it's appreciated that they are integrated with the predominant culture. But that black kid no one's ever seen before with the saggy jeans and the facial tattoo staying at the weekly motel? Yeah, maybe worth checking out on that car-jacking, I don't know.
If I said, "The statistics are wrong and I'm wrong," would that be a satisfactory conclusion to this argument for you? What is the correct answer, Bronco, to ignore the tremendous portion of crime coming from the black segment of the population?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Right-wing extremists have been responsible for most terrorist attacks and plots in the US in recent times. Since 9/11 they have killed more Americans than have Islamic extremists, and far more than left-wing extremists.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...omestic-terror
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...errorism-data/
https://www.csis.org/analysis/escala...-united-states
We know that such people are likely to fit a certain profile; expressing certain racial views, sporting confederate insignia, wearing militia gear etc. People fitting this profile are far more likely to be involved in violent white supremacists activity than others. If racial profiling is logical then why shouldn't the same logic be applied to this group; eg pull them over for searches if they 'look the type'?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filghy2
Right-wing extremists have been responsible for most terrorist attacks and plots in the US in recent times. Since 9/11 they have killed more Americans than have Islamic extremists, and far more than left-wing extremists.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...omestic-terror
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...errorism-data/
https://www.csis.org/analysis/escala...-united-states
We know that such people are likely to fit a certain profile; expressing certain racial views, sporting confederate insignia, wearing militia gear etc. People fitting this profile are far more likely to be involved in violent white supremacists activity than others. If racial profiling is logical then why shouldn't the same logic be applied to this group; eg pull them over for searches if they 'look the type'?
From the conservative perspective, there's no such thing as "far right terrorism." I doubt you understand the full extent of the media-driven divide in this country now. A large percentage of conservatives do not consider liberals to be their fellow citizens with differing political views. They view THEM as terrorists. Terrorists who established their own independent sovereign nation within the city limits of Portland Oregon, tore down cities all over the country for months on end, murdered innocent motorists for merely trying to pass through their illegal street barricades, burned courthouses, tore down statues of men who fought to FREE THE SLAVES because they're essentially too fucking stupid to know the difference, attacked police officers all over the nation, and generally made it known that the rule of law no longer applied to them. They were supported in these efforts by the liberal media and liberal politicians. So you know, are they our brethren now? Nope. Is this our country, or theirs? Ours.
Most cops are conservatives. Thank God. It's because they've seen up-close and personal the results of liberal policies, the poverty and the resulting criminal sub-culture. So yeah, they might see a group of well-armed good ol' boys and just pass 'em right by - probably related to one or two of them on the mother's side. Guess that's a factor liberals didn't take into account when they decided to go the street violence route to success.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
From the conservative perspective, there's no such thing as "far right terrorism."
From the conservative perspective there's no such thing as fact-checking, far right terrorism, racism, detective work (should be renamed black guy with a face tattoo detecting), epidemiology, and immunology. Anything else?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
From the conservative perspective there's no such thing as fact-checking, far right terrorism, racism, detective work (should be renamed black guy with a face tattoo detecting), epidemiology, and immunology. Anything else?
Meh, it's a simple matter of fact vs fiction, Bronco. Am I a racist because the media tells me I'm a racist? Am I actually a racist? Or am I maybe not a racist at all? I consider every angle.
I wasn't aware of the full extent of the liberal media's race-baiting until the Atlanta massage parlor murders. The narrative quickly became anti-Asian racism. Then the shooter came out and actually said he was an incel who hates sex workers. But the media absolutely refused to let go of the anti-Asian narrative, even when the truth - that the killer was some kind of quasi-religious sex deviant - became widely known. The truth is irrelevant if it contradicts the narrative.
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Nick, have you ever wondered whether you want people to call you racist because it fuels your grievance based politics? I occasionally meet people on the left who will insist on narratives that are false for ideological reasons but it's far from the majority of us and far from the mainstream. But there seems to be a drive by people on the right to keep pushing the envelope so that you can claim you're being persecuted by cancel culture. Let me illustrate how non-existent cancel culture is.
Mel Gibson has denied the Holocaust in multiple interviews, propagated all sorts of crazy theories about Jews infiltrating the Vatican, ranted about Jews while driving drunk, called Winona Ryder an "oven dodger", used the n word in a rant, admitted to punching his wife in the face while she was holding her child, made really grotesque homophobic comments, and he made a Christmas movie last year. The thing about people ranting and raving about cancel culture and political correctness is that they give the impression that they don't believe anything is bigoted or that people can be genuinely disgusted by bad behavior.
I've seen some unreasonable people on the left (out of 50% of the population there will be some embarrassing moments), but it has overtaken your entire movement. You can't even get rid of overt Islamophobia from your congressmen and women. I'm not entirely certain you guys don't see Islamophobia as justified or normal. Look at MTG and that Boebert idiot?
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Re: Progressives Gone Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick Danger
Meh, it's a simple matter of fact vs fiction, Bronco. Am I a racist because the media tells me I'm a racist? Am I actually a racist? Or am I maybe not a racist at all? I consider every angle.
I wasn't aware of the full extent of the liberal media's race-baiting until the Atlanta massage parlor murders. The narrative quickly became anti-Asian racism. Then the shooter came out and actually said he was an incel who hates sex workers. But the media absolutely refused to let go of the anti-Asian narrative, even when the truth - that the killer was some kind of quasi-religious sex deviant - became widely known. The truth is irrelevant if it contradicts the narrative.
You say the "shooter came out and actually said he was an incel who hates sex workers." You do realize people don't take the word of murderers when it comes to their motivations. Something is a confession when it's against penal interest. If it benefits the defendant then it's received more skeptically.
But let's say the opinion pieces had it wrong. Or that it was a case of mixed motive and it's difficult to disentangle the murderer's motivation and it wasn't a bias crime. How did this affect you? You really are defending the honor and integrity of someone who murdered a bunch of innocent people over his own sexual hangups?
There have been a lot of anti-asian hate crimes in the last year. I've seen video of a number of them and they're ugly. I can't imagine being so worked up that the media speculated about a murderer's motive that I lost sight of the fact that people are being assaulted left and right because they're Asian.
