Do you really care?

I see where you're coming from....I do think liberal democracy today is flawed, for the reasons you say and that people are dim...we expect politicians to tell the truth but they always lie in elections. Obama is the latest of MANY examples......

I take an interest in it, only because I guess it's what I enjoy and my personality/mindset, I like "bigger picture" issues....Other than that, I think it's good we elect our leaders, but then democracy as we know it is flawed...

But it's better to say politics is detached or voting changes nothing than saying politics doesn't affect people.....bar laws, taxes, mandatory primary/secondary education, etc. no politics and anything politicians do don't affect anybody...

They lie for OUR VOTES. In a liberal democracy voting is everything. We owe it to each other pay attention. To listen and read from different sources across the spectrum. Discuss issues seriously but amicably with other people. I never understood the maxim "Never talk about politics or religion."

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Originally Posted by trish

They lie for OUR VOTES. In a liberal democracy voting is everything. We owe it to each other pay attention. To listen and read from different sources across the spectrum. Discuss issues seriously but amicably with other people. I never understood the maxim "Never talk about politics or religion."

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what else is there to talk about

Democratic minded individuals might stress what is right, logical, effective, smart, practical, fair, forward thinking, correct, .....so what? Republicans vote for the guy who is going to rid their neighborhood of blacks, Mexicans, and fruits. Mayberry. Fifty percent of Americans don't vote in Presidential elections, less in other elections. Ninety percent of Americans consider Congress a bad joke. Pinning your hopes and dreams on who is going to win the next election is a bit like throwing craps, one guy wins, one guy loses. Caring about politics divides the Nation. If two guys in your carpool are Democrats, and two guys are Republican, skip that hour line at the polling place. Go out for a nice breakfast instead, Who cares?

On a less comical note. I am quickly approaching a time of my retirement where I must choose between a small house in a rich DEMOCRATIC area where I have good schools, museums, shopping malls, smart neighbors, or some poorer rural REPUBLICAN area. In the urban setting I won't have much cash in my pocket. In the country, I'll be flush. People who don't care about anything do help the Republican Party agenda. If you live out in Nowheresville, Iowa, there's not that much to care about.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

what else is there to talk about

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Baking?

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Originally Posted by trish

They lie for OUR VOTES. In a liberal democracy voting is everything. We owe it to each other pay attention. To listen and read from different sources across the spectrum. Discuss issues seriously but amicably with other people. I never understood the maxim "Never talk about politics or religion."

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thing is, it's not something we can prevent.....they say x before election and then do y afterwards....

Oh! So you're telling me you can't tell a campaign promise from a honest conviction? These people have a history. They have records. You can look at who supports them and who doesn't.

And yes sometimes, reality gets in the way of opinion. Sometimes facts intervene and forces a change of mind. Not all unkept promises are lies.

But none of that changes the fact that politicians are desperate for our VOTES. They're fucking desperate. We hold the power. What's really frustrating is that we aren't all of one mind (and half the population listens to the wrong pundits ;) )But that's what a democratic republic is all about.

What excited people about the referendum in Scotland, albeit in the last 6 months of a two year campaign, was the intensity of the open debates that were held, the fact that a broad section of the population -in Scotland- participated in both the debates and even more importantly, the vote itself with a turn-out of over 84%. For many of us this is what democracy in action should be like, even though there seemed to be a ban on the discussion of issues such as the Royal Family and immigration, but it is also the case that it appears to have been a positive experience for many because they got the result they wanted.
The danger is that the referendum has the potential to replace the political process as it winds its weary way through our Parliaments and Congresses. If we elect a government we don't then expect it to abdicate its decision-making powers and hand it back to 'the people'. What would happen if there were a referendum on issues like capital punishment, in the UK; or abortion in the USA? The Scots turned out en masse, but suppose a referendum on a contentious subject attracted only 60% of the electorate of whom 57% vote one way and 43% the other?
We may, in the UK, be asked to vote in a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union. I don't know how many are likely to turn out to vote, and I suspect that for all the noise the anti-Europeans can make, as in Scotland, a 'silent majority' will vote to stay in. But should there even be a referendum, and is this the best way to deal with political problems that our institutions seem unable to resolve?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

What excited people about the referendum in Scotland, albeit in the last 6 months of a two year campaign, was the intensity of the open debates that were held, the fact that a broad section of the population -in Scotland- participated in both the debates and even more importantly, the vote itself with a turn-out of over 84%. For many of us this is what democracy in action should be like, even though there seemed to be a ban on the discussion of issues such as the Royal Family and immigration, but it is also the case that it appears to have been a positive experience for many because they got the result they wanted.
The danger is that the referendum has the potential to replace the political process as it winds its weary way through our Parliaments and Congresses. If we elect a government we don't then expect it to abdicate its decision-making powers and hand it back to 'the people'. What would happen if there were a referendum on issues like capital punishment, in the UK; or abortion in the USA? The Scots turned out en masse, but suppose a referendum on a contentious subject attracted only 60% of the electorate of whom 57% vote one way and 43% the other?
We may, in the UK, be asked to vote in a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union. I don't know how many are likely to turn out to vote, and I suspect that for all the noise the anti-Europeans can make, as in Scotland, a 'silent majority' will vote to stay in. But should there even be a referendum, and is this the best way to deal with political problems that our institutions seem unable to resolve?

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....but a referendum can , in fact, be part of the political process. If political parties have been dead locked on issues in what seems like forever - than a call to the people seems the correct thing to do. It shouldn't be on every issue obviously, but one deemed important enough to a country to find it necessary. If the interested subsection of a populace that would normally back a particular vote that you - for example - are part of doesn't turn out in significant numbers to vote...then shame on them..(I think sometimes people also have to come to grips with the fact that their personal choice isn't always necessarily the right one either).
There's nothing wrong with occasionally making the populace part of the political process...they're already part of the process every time they vote.

...I'm referring to referendum votes on a local gov't level though.