Climate change could mean the extinction of our species

GMOs apparently have a negative effect on the bees, and once man starts genetically engineering the planet many imbalances are created as a result which throws the entire biosphere out of wack and there are many forms of alternative energy that have been surprised by GE and the mega oil corporations for years because of profit and there are underground bio weapon research facilities located throughout the world and yes Trish I agree many mineral mining and lumber practices are poorly regulated

Quote:

---

GMOs apparently have a negative effect on the bees...

---

Not apparent at all (given the hive collapse is caused by a virus with a mite acting as vector). But I take your larger point...the same point as the movie Jurassic Park by the way...nothing alive can be contained.

Quote:

---

once man starts genetically engineering...

---

Careful here. The domestication of grains, tubers, cattle, pigs etc. are all examples of humans genetically engineering the flora and fauna around them. These days the experiment progress more quickly because we can directly manipulate the genes rather than using the old indirect methods. Ordinary human interaction with monkeys, pigs and chickens has created some monstrous flu viruses. The practice of dosing farm animals with antibiotics (common on factory farms) is creating resistant hybrids of all sorts of virulent "bugs." I worry more about the profit motive than urge to learn.

yes Trish, the lengths the foundations and corporations will go to for the sake of year after year profit increases is scary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Read the whole thread. The Sun cycle hypothesis has been debunked about eight times already.

Where the current energy imbalance due to an increase in solar constant, then

1) The mesosphere would be heating up. It's not. Instead the carbon dioxide below the mesosphere is holds the heat radiating from the Earth's surface in. Light passes through, heats the surface and lower atmosphere and is prevented from radiating back out by anthropogenic carbon dioxide.

2) The satellites that have been monitoring the Sun for the past fifteen years would have measured a significant increase in the solar constant (see SOHO satellite observatory). They haven't. In fact no examination of the measurements of the solar constant which have been made over several centuries show a significant increase in solar radiation which would account for the increase in average surface temperature rise since the industrial revolution.

3. The current observations confirm the current model of global energy imbalance.

Me too. And I'm concerned with the move toward the privatization of aquifers and lakes.

Not so much. The patent law on these things needs to be changed so Big Ag isn't able to exploit these methods to the detriment of third world farmers. E.g. The creation of infertile grains means that farmers have to buy seed grain every year because the seeds that grow from the grains they plant are infertile. This is just a fucking racket.

This is a big agricultural problem because of course bees are primary pollinators, and they work for free. Apparently honey bees are suffering from a viral disease which is carried by a mite.

This will continue to be a problem unless we can implement other sources of energy. As oil and natural gas become more scare and more expensive, nuclear will begin to look better and better. As we've seen, accidents are a problem, but IMO the major problem with nuclear is waste disposal.

Indeed, especially if the sole purpose of the research is to weaponize a virulent contagion. It is, however, difficult to assess how much of a threat we're under since bioweapons research (if it's being done at all) is done in secret.

Let me add, poorly regulated mining and lumbering practices are a major threat to the health of the planet. Poor practices in these areas have been responsible for the fall of civilizations for eons.

---

I am more concerned with mining and lumbering than with bees; the UK over the last century has lost a variety of insects like bees, and birds because the hedges that used to border fields have gone. Gm crops have been used to make new breeds of tobacco but I don't suppose this will stop people smoking. Incidentally, there was an item on the radio about 'City honey' made from bees who hive on rooftops in London. The argument is that the bees don't have access to countryside or gardens, but do have access to London's parks and that this gives their honey a more robust flavour than the more floral honey one associates with rural bees...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

I am more concerned with mining and lumbering than with bees; the UK over the last century has lost a variety of insects like bees, and birds because the hedges that used to border fields have gone. Gm crops have been used to make new breeds of tobacco but I don't suppose this will stop people smoking. Incidentally, there was an item on the radio about 'City honey' made from bees who hive on rooftops in London. The argument is that the bees don't have access to countryside or gardens, but do have access to London's parks and that this gives their honey a more robust flavour than the more floral honey one associates with rural bees...

---

Bee colony collapse seems most likely due to a virus where the vector is the varroa mite. The role of some pesticides has also been suggested - ironically GM crops mean less pesticides. It is not a lost of habitat to blame.

Decline in bird populations are probably due to a variety of reasons - including habitat loss, climate changes, monocultures, etc. Since World War II, hedgerows have been removed at a much faster rate than they have been planted. In some parts of the UK 50% of hedgerows have gone, while others are so badly managed that their value to wildlife is much reduced. This process essentially ceased in the mid-90s. The most likely cause for some species, especially those that migrate, is climate change. If you as a bird fly from Africa to Northern Europe to breed in the Summer, you now fly a few 100 miles more to find the right climate. As with all breeding, if the timing is wrong and you are knackered, yo don't breed too well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martin48

Bee colony collapse seems most likely due to a virus where the vector is the varroa mite. The role of some pesticides has also been suggested - ironically GM crops mean less pesticides. It is not a lost of habitat to blame.

Decline in bird populations are probably due to a variety of reasons - including habitat loss, climate changes, monocultures, etc. Since World War II, hedgerows have been removed at a much faster rate than they have been planted. In some parts of the UK 50% of hedgerows have gone, while others are so badly managed that their value to wildlife is much reduced. This process essentially ceased in the mid-90s. The most likely cause for some species, especially those that migrate, is climate change. If you as a bird fly from Africa to Northern Europe to breed in the Summer, you now fly a few 100 miles more to find the right climate. As with all breeding, if the timing is wrong and you are knackered, yo don't breed too well.

---

Albert Einstein on Bees: "If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination … no more men!"
And, too, Bats pollinate plants. Hopefully they don't go extinct. (But 99.9999 percent of all life that has ever existed is extinct. The dinosaurs had a good run. Sharks, too. They've been around for oh... roughly 400 million years. We've been around for 2 million in one stage or another. Or 6,000 years depending on how irrational one is -- :))
Loss of biodiversity is very worrying, too.
As Stavros pointed out: deforestation and mining should worry us.
The acidification of the oceans should worry us.
Mass consumerism should worry us. Mass production, too.
Noam Chomsky was asked: Will we be around in 500 years? He laughed.
This is our culture.... Well, not really. It's difficult to talk to Americans about culture. Because culture isn't Wal-Mart, it isn't McDonald's. It isn't Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie. It's a set of values. We have no values. (Take, say, indigenous people. They're closely connected with and to nature. We aren't. It explicates a lot. Not valuing nature means we're in a whole heap of trouble.)

Virginia Republicans War on the Words "Sea Level Rise" - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martin48

Bee colony collapse seems most likely due to a virus where the vector is the varroa mite. The role of some pesticides has also been suggested - ironically GM crops mean less pesticides. It is not a lost of habitat to blame.

Decline in bird populations are probably due to a variety of reasons - including habitat loss, climate changes, monocultures, etc. Since World War II, hedgerows have been removed at a much faster rate than they have been planted. In some parts of the UK 50% of hedgerows have gone, while others are so badly managed that their value to wildlife is much reduced. This process essentially ceased in the mid-90s. The most likely cause for some species, especially those that migrate, is climate change. If you as a bird fly from Africa to Northern Europe to breed in the Summer, you now fly a few 100 miles more to find the right climate. As with all breeding, if the timing is wrong and you are knackered, yo don't breed too well.

---

I agree with most of this, mostly with regard to birds -but in the case of bees, where does a virus come from? Could it be that some pesticide somewhere or something chemical being used in gardens infects bees? When different species of bee were cross-bred and the result was the 'African Killer Bee' did this also create a virus that most bees are not immune to? I don't know, but this would not be climate change as the factor, but science and nature.

The current hypothesis is that bee colony collapse is due to a viral infection carried by mites...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...structor-mites

Crossbreeding bees doesn't create viruses. One has to be careful though that the bees you bring in to crossbreed with your home variety aren't already infected. I suppose it's possible that the hybrid bee that you create might be more susceptible to the deliterious effects of infection. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, since all honey bees are at risk, not just certain crossbreeds.

Also chemical pollutants are not likely to produce new viruses though they through selection change the distribution of genes in the gene pool of a particular virus; i.e. they make create an environment where the more virulent strains have a greater reproductive advantage than they previously had. Certain pollutants may also simply render honey bees more susceptible to a virus that's been around for decades. Or chemical pollutants might make colony collapse a more likely response to infection by a virus that's been around awhile. Nothing I've read indicates which if any of these scenarios applies to the current problem. Viruses evolve to exploit natural shifts as well as artificial shifts in their environment.

Pollination is big business in the U.S. and bees are transported over long distances to pollinate fields and orchards. The stress of transportation and the higher chance of being exposed to viruses increases the chance of spreading diseases among honey bees.

Doesn'[t seem to be affecting the Africanized bees.

Could California see the next nuclear disaster? - YouTube

Article by Paul Craig Roberts. Who was the: Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012...spring-for-us/

Rex Tillerson, Chairperson and CEO of ExxonMobil, admits global warming is real. A big step for the giant energy company. But he says we can adapt. But say we can't. What then??? :(
Plus how do we sustain perpetual growth -- endless production and consumption -- on a finite planet? How can we keep growing, as it were, into the future. I mean, can we sustain this level of production and consumption 100 years from now? What about 1,000 years? What about 5,000 years? Or do we simply say future generations have no value.
As Noam Chomsky has stated: corporations, by their very design, have an INSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE to destroy the planet.
And this goes back to perpetual growth. Which is built into the corporate structure. Corporations have to keep growing. I mean, GM has to keep producing more and more cars. It has to.
There are 800 million cars in the world. What happens when China decides they want, say, a billion cars. What then?
You simply cannot sustain, again, a system based on infinite growth, infinite consumption and production. It's physically impossible.
But Tillerson is only concerned about the next quarter, the next 3 months. And has to be. That's his institutional role. Therefore his kids and grandkids have no value. But he isn't a bad person. It has nothing to do with the people. It's the institution.
Same thing applies to, say, government.... It's not the people. It's the structure.

Exxon Mobil CEO: Climate Change is No Big Deal, We'll Just Adapt! - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

Rex Tillerson, Chairperson and CEO of ExxonMobil, admits global warming is real. A big step for the giant energy company. But he says we can adapt. But say we can't. What then??? :(
Plus how do we sustain perpetual growth -- endless production and consumption -- on a finite planet? How can we keep growing, as it were, into the future. I mean, can we sustain this level of production and consumption 100 years from now? What about 1,000 years? What about 5,000 years? Or do we simply say future generations have no value.
As Noam Chomsky has stated: corporations, by their very design, have an INSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE to destroy the planet.
And this goes back to perpetual growth. Which is built into the corporate structure. Corporations have to keep growing. I mean, GM has to keep producing more and more cars. It has to.
There are 800 million cars in the world. What happens when China decides they want, say, a billion cars. What then?
You simply cannot sustain, again, a system based on infinite growth, infinite consumption and production. It's physically impossible.
But Tillerson is only concerned about the next quarter, the next 3 months. And has to be. That's his institutional role. Therefore his kids and grandkids have no value. But he isn't a bad person. It has nothing to do with the people. It's the institution.
Same thing applies to, say, government.... It's not the people. It's the structure.

---

1) BP acknowledged the human element in climate change in 1997, followed soon after by Shell and some other independent oil companies; Tillerson's predecessor, Lee Raymond probably didn't believe in it but was advised at the time that admitting a role in climate change would make Exxon liable to prosecution in the US by environmentla groups. That Exxon has followed the other independent oil companies isn't news; you keep banging on about it and getting it wrong every time.
The real issue is not climate change per se, but the policies being introduced to regulate/reduce carbon emissions. BP was instrumental in developing the concept of carbon trading in the European Union, but additional taxes are what corporations want to avoid.

2) When you say:
Plus how do we sustain perpetual growth -- endless production and consumption -- on a finite planet? How can we keep growing, as it were, into the future. I mean, can we sustain this level of production and consumption 100 years from now?
-You don't seem to be aware that production and consumption are in decline and that this is one reason so many people are unemployed. It happened before when there was a dramatic fall in demand for industrial goods in the late 1970s and 1980s, so there is no perpetual growth but cycles of growth, stagnation, decline and growth again, one hopes. You also take no account of how innovations in modern industry make production more efficient.

3) Finally when you say this:
As Noam Chomsky has stated: corporations, by their very design, have an INSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE to destroy the planet.
What planet are you living on? Can you not think through this to realise how plain stupid Chomsky can be? Just because he says something doesn't make it so, corporations need customers in markets, committing corporate suicide isn't usually a priority over that.

Published on Saturday, July 7, 2012 by Common Dreams 'Staggering': 4,500 Heat Records and Counting


As globe warms, the rate records are being broken can't be explained away by coincidence

- Common Dreams staff

A heatwave that began weeks ago in the western Rockies before spreading to the midwest with sweltering temperatures and monstrous thunderstorms, has continued eastward leaving records highs, loss of life, and intense weather events all along the way. Heat records have been smashed in over 4,500 locations, and with Saturday temperatures showing no relief, that number is expected to grow.
https://www.commondreams.org/sites/c..._440x297_0.jpg Looking at midwestern temperatures across the region, the Weather Underground blog cites records set in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Pennsylvania. "On Friday," writes Jeff Masters, "three cities in Michigan [hit] their hottest temperatures ever recorded. Lansing hit 103°, the hottest day in Michigan's capital city since record keeping began in 1863."
The National Weather Service said the temperature also hit 103° at O'Hare International Airport on Friday, breaking the record of 99 degrees set in 1988, and making it the third-straight day with a triple-digit reading in Chicago.
Lack of electricity also is compounding the misery for many following storms that knocked out power in Michigan, West Virginia, Maryland, and elsewhere.
Jane Lubchenco, head of the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), on Friday said that the experience of recent extreme weather has convinced many Americans previously unconvinced or unconcerned with the impacts of man-made climate change.
“Many people around the world are beginning to appreciate that climate change is under way, that it’s having consequences that are playing out in real time and, in the United States at least, we are seeing more and more examples of extreme weather and extreme climate-related events,” Lubchenco told a university forum in the Australian capital of Canberra.
“People’s perceptions in the United States at least are in many cases beginning to change as they experience something first-hand that they at least think is directly attributable to climate change,” she said.
"It's OK to talk about events when you discuss them in a proper scientific context," says Michael Mann, director of the Earth Science Center at Penn State. "The climate models have predicted what we've now seen, which is a doubling in the rate at which we break all-time warmth records in the U.S. We're breaking those records, over the past decade, at a rate of almost twice what we would expect from chance alone."
In fact, more than 2,000 U.S. heat records were broken just in the past week. Climatologists argue that while there's certainly nothing unexpected in periodic record-breaking temperatures, the rate at which these records are being broken year after year can't be explained away by coincidence.
"There's a randomness to weather, but what we're seeing is loading of the weather dice to the point where sixes are coming up 10 times more often," says Mann. "If you were gambling and you saw sixes coming up 10 times more often you'd start to notice. We are seeing climate change now in the statistical loading of these dice."

Climate Change or Just Hot Weather? - YouTube

More good news on the Climate Change front -- ha ha ha! The concern now should be so-called runaway climate change.
Some fairly twisted scientists have suggested we "move" the Earth. Oooookay. That'll be fun -- ha ha! Actually, I'm looking forward to that. The simple solution: stop burning fossil fuels never crosses their minds because the energy industry is just too darn powerful.
And, too, their institutional interests are short-term. And have to be. I mean, Rex Tillerson, CEO and chairperson, of Exxon is only thinking about himself, his sizable wallet, his net worth. It's called: being rational. He is a very rational actor.
But what happens in 50 years, 60, 70 or 80 years, well, who cares. I got mine jack.
It's difficult to criticize how rational this is. Because it is rational. And that's why it frightens me.
I think it was George Carlin who wished future generations: good luck. 'Cause they're gonna need it.

Green Report - Frightening News - Greenland's Ice Sheet - YouTube

Are climate sceptics more likely to be conspiracy theorists?

New research finds that sceptics also tend to support conspiracy theories such as the moon landing being faked:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...sts?intcmp=122

Climate skeptic changes mind ->
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/op...?smid=pl-share

Berkeley Earth Temperature Project->
http://berkeleyearth.org/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Climate skeptic changes mind ->
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/op...?smid=pl-share

Berkeley Earth Temperature Project->
http://berkeleyearth.org/

---

And, again, even the likes of Rex Tillerson, CEO and Chairperson of Exxon-Mobil, came out, as it were, and said global warming is real. But said we could adapt.
I'm guessing that's their new line of defense. Whereby Oil, Coal and other Energy giants will simply say: Yes!, global warming is real but we can adapt. We've the ingenuity and technology to adapt to what nature throws our way. Well, we better start right now.
Bill McKibben (it's with an e) talks about the power of the oil industry...

Bill McKibbon - Koch-funded study..."Global Warming Real!" - YouTube

Stop this culture of paying politicians for denying climate change

Protecting the environment requires a sweeping reform of political funding, only then corporations will stop throwing big money at senators:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...cal-funding-us

Interesting...

A Summer of Extremes
Signifies the New Normal

This summer has seen record heat waves and wildfires in the U.S, the worst flooding in Beijing’s modern history, and droughts that devastated the U.S. corn crop and led India to set up “refugee camps” for livestock. These extreme events were not freak occurrences — this is how the earth works now.

by Bill McKibben

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/mckibbe...e_normal/2568/

Why we need a law on ecocide

Until we have a law to prosecute those who destroy the planet, corporations will never be called to account for their crimes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...-law-ratcliffe

The interesting Septuagenarian: Russell Means. Who is an author, activist and actor. He was in: The Last of the Mohicans. And Natural Born Killers.

Matriarchy - Part 2 - YouTube

I applaud Ben for keeping this important thread alive. It is indeed the single biggest issue we face today.

For this reason - and myriad others - I'd urge my Americans friends (and enemies) here to choose the candidate whose election in November will do less to harm the environment. That is clearly the present incumbent. Far from perfect - as Ben and others whose concern is truth, not propaganda, remind us. But in the real world he is the only viable choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prospero

I applaud Ben for keeping this important thread alive. It is indeed the single biggest issue we face today.

For this reason - and myriad others - I'd urge my Americans friends (and enemies) here to choose the candidate whose election in November will do less to harm the environment. That is clearly the present incumbent. Far from perfect - as Ben and others whose concern is truth, not propaganda, remind us. But in the real world he is the only viable choice.

---

A slight shift from global warming. Joe Rogan rants on consciousness, the cosmos and, well, everything....

Joe Rogan - What Is Reality - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

A slight shift from global warming. Joe Rogan rants on consciousness, the cosmos and, well, everything....

Joe Rogan - What Is Reality - YouTube

---

He went to town on Carlos Mencia too. Someone had to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gVYfDCgYxk

I think we'll all become vegetarians in a few decades. For a few reasons. Moral, healthful and environmental.
I mean, even the term meat is a euphemism. We do murder -- and yes murder is a fairly strong word -- these animals.
Pigs, chickens, cows and sheep do value their lives. Much like we do.
Anyway, we'll see, I think, a social and spiritual transformation in a few decades. As animals and the natural world gain more and more rights.
I mean, do animals deserve rights? What about the natural world? Should ants have rights? What about trees? Should a mountain have rights?
I mean, all of this is worth discussing.
At present pigs and cows have no value. The only value they have is on our plates. Sadly.

Scientists Say the World Must Become Vegetarian - YouTube

I can't wait for our species to go extinct!

I see your point...all but one of us will be dead before the last human dies, therefore only one of us can wait for the species to go extinct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

I see your point...all but one of us will be dead before the last human dies, therefore only one of us can wait for the species to go extinct.

---

But they will never know that they are the 'one'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

I think we'll all become vegetarians in a few decades. For a few reasons. Moral, healthful and environmental.
I mean, even the term meat is a euphemism. We do murder -- and yes murder is a fairly strong word -- these animals.
Pigs, chickens, cows and sheep do value their lives. Much like we do.
Anyway, we'll see, I think, a social and spiritual transformation in a few decades. As animals and the natural world gain more and more rights.
I mean, do animals deserve rights? What about the natural world? Should ants have rights? What about trees? Should a mountain have rights?
I mean, all of this is worth discussing.
At present pigs and cows have no value. The only value they have is on our plates. Sadly.

---

And addendum to my earlier post:

Walmart Facing Campaign To Break With Abusive Pork Supplier

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...campaign-pork/


Republican Congressman Gloats About Bill To Enable Animal Torture

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...nimal-torture/

From 4 years ago...

Ecuador’s Constitution Gives Rights to Nature:
http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/ec...hts-to-nature/

A very good step forward.

If Star Wars was made by environmentalists...

If Star Wars was made by environmentalists.. - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

I think we'll all become vegetarians in a few decades. For a few reasons. Moral, healthful and environmental.
I mean, even the term meat is a euphemism. We do murder -- and yes murder is a fairly strong word -- these animals.
Pigs, chickens, cows and sheep do value their lives. Much like we do.
Anyway, we'll see, I think, a social and spiritual transformation in a few decades. As animals and the natural world gain more and more rights.
I mean, do animals deserve rights? What about the natural world? Should ants have rights? What about trees? Should a mountain have rights?
I mean, all of this is worth discussing.
At present pigs and cows have no value. The only value they have is on our plates. Sadly.

---

I won't be holding out for a "social and spiritual transformation". A powerful case can be made on environmental grounds for the consumption of less meat - certainly red meat. But, of course, we would have to prevent individuals owning meat-eating pets - no dogs, no cats. There is less of a case for vegetarianism on health grounds - and as for moral, that is debatable. It is argued then animals are different to humans, it that we alone have duties and hence rights - and we can enter freely into a social contract. This does not mean that we should cause unnecessary harm to animals, nor that we should aim to protect species and their environment.

We have a bigger duty (that is 'cos we are the only species that can assume duties in a legal sense) to protect this planet and all its species

M

We need to start putting lions, tigers and bears on death row... right now! Murder cannot be condoned for any reason. In the interest of minimizing waste humans will be expected to consume the flesh of executed murdering carnivores. Just the other day I executed and ate my offending neighbor's cat, Fluffy. (Burp) There were still feathers in her belly.

Observe the majestic beauty of the wild cow in it's natural habitat! Cow mane flowing freely in the wind...moooooooooooooooooo!

This looks like a job for.....

Another pussy gone. Shame!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

We need to start putting lions, tigers and bears on death row... right now! Murder cannot be condoned for any reason. In the interest of minimizing waste humans will be expected to consume the flesh of executed murdering carnivores. Just the other day I executed and ate my offending neighbor's cat, Fluffy. (Burp) There were still feathers in her belly.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

We need to start putting lions, tigers and bears on death row... right now! Murder cannot be condoned for any reason. In the interest of minimizing waste humans will be expected to consume the flesh of executed murdering carnivores. Just the other day I executed and ate my offending neighbor's cat, Fluffy. (Burp) There were still feathers in her belly.

---

Oookaaay -- ha ha! :)