2024 USA Election: Wishin' and Hopin'

This article tries to explain why Trump has been elected to a second term as President. But while it reaches back into history the examples are not fair -England in the 17thc, and France in the 18thc were not democracies, neither was British America in 1776.

So the question in 2024 is: why would people in a democracy fed up with the elites, vote for the most elitist, wealthiest people to rule them? No longer a govt of Millionaires out of touch with real people, but Billionaires who do not and never will care about John and Mary America. Bizarre.

The deep historical forces that explain Trump’s win | US politics | The Guardian

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Originally Posted by Paladin

Lastly, I not that there are a lot of brits & other foreigners here sounding off on MY country's elections & election process. Here's an idea, correct your own country's problems before belittling mine.

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Here's an idea. This is a public forum where anyone can comment on whatever interests them, and what happens in the US does affect the rest of the world. If you don't like that, feel free to piss off back to wherever you were hanging out before the election.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

This article tries to explain why Trump has been elected to a second term as President. But while it reaches back into history the examples are not fair -England in the 17thc, and France in the 18thc were not democracies, neither was British America in 1776.

So the question in 2024 is: why would people in a democracy fed up with the elites, vote for the most elitist, wealthiest people to rule them? No longer a govt of Millionaires out of touch with real people, but Billionaires who do not and never will care about John and Mary America. Bizarre.

The deep historical forces that explain Trump’s win | US politics | The Guardian

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There are MANY more far left radical billionaires than conservative ones, and you KNOW that. You're being Disingenuous as always.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Here's an idea. This is a public forum where anyone can comment on whatever interests them, and what happens in the US does affect the rest of the world. If you don't like that, feel free to piss off back to wherever you were hanging out before the election.

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Glass houses & stone throwing come to mind. Maybe we should have let the germans and ruskies run all over the place back then.

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Originally Posted by Paladin

There are MANY more far left radical billionaires than conservative ones, and you KNOW that. You're being Disingenuous as always.

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Is that why the American people rejected the Democrats? Are you suggesting Bill Gates is 'radical left'? I can't think of a single American billionaire who could fall into Trump's description, but honestly, do you really think there is any meaning in the words Trump uses to sneer at people he doesn't like? He has called the same people Marxists and Fascists, not knowing the meaning of one, and being closer to the other than some realize. Remember 'drain the swamp' and where that originated? You think Trump didn't know it was Mussolini's term?

Go on, then, name those 'Radical Left Billionaires', and while you are doing so , maybe define 'Radical Left' or 'far left', because I don't think you know what these terms mean.

Well Gates for one, dumass. Oh yeah didn't his wife show him the door after he was found to be on epstein's lolita express???
Bezos
Oprah
deniro
Stone
Baldwin
& 95%+ of hollywood; they may not be billionaires, but multi millionaires yes

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Originally Posted by Paladin

Well Gates for one, dumass. Oh yeah didn't his wife show him the door after he was found to be on epstein's lolita express???
Bezos
Oprah
deniro
Stone
Baldwin
& 95%+ of hollywood; they may not be billionaires, but multi millionaires yes

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I note you have not defined what you mean by 'left' be it radical, far, extreme. None of the names on your list are left wing radicals. I would say they are social liberals at best. But this is how the language of politics has been debased since the Clinton era.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I note you have not defined what you mean by 'left' be it radical, far, extreme.

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Far left is anyone to the left of him, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Paladin

Well Gates for one, dumass. Oh yeah didn't his wife show him the door after he was found to be on epstein's lolita express???

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The word is spelt 'dumbass', dumbass. Maybe they don't mention such things on Fox News, but you seem be overlooking the evidence that Trump and Epstein were besties.
https://www.vox.com/culture/382550/j...ump-friendship

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Originally Posted by filghy2

The word is spelt 'dumbass', dumbass. Maybe they don't mention such things on Fox News, but you seem be overlooking the evidence that Trump and Epstein were besties.
https://www.vox.com/culture/382550/j...ump-friendship

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Trump was never a "bestie". He allowed epsteins plane or helo to land somewhere once. and he wasn't a regulat on that plane - if he was ever on it at all unlike many others.

I spell it dumass deliberately, because mist dumasses don't even notice it.

"Trump was never a "bestie"".

Remember when Trump said this -

""I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy," Trump told New York magazine in 2002. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."".
Everything Donald Trump Has Said About Jeffrey Epstein Relationship - Newsweek

I can't vouch for their authenticity, but Wolff says he has the tapes-
Listen To The Jeffrey Epstein Tapes: ‘I Was Donald Trump’s Closest Friend’

Trump claims he broke with Epstein after an incident in Florida when Epstein hit on the teenage daughter of a friend. But if Trump knew that Epstein was having sex with underage girls, why did he not tell the FBI or law enforcement? And every time Trump is asked about Epstein he goes pale, and either doesn't answer the question, or ends the interview.

Jeffrey Epstein sleeps with the fishes. I wonder, who did the angling?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

"Trump was never a "bestie"".

Remember when Trump said this -

""I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy," Trump told New York magazine in 2002. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."".
Everything Donald Trump Has Said About Jeffrey Epstein Relationship - Newsweek

I can't vouch for their authenticity, but Wolff says he has the tapes-
Listen To The Jeffrey Epstein Tapes: ‘I Was Donald Trump’s Closest Friend’

Trump claims he broke with Epstein after an incident in Florida when Epstein hit on the teenage daughter of a friend. But if Trump knew that Epstein was having sex with underage girls, why did he not tell the FBI or law enforcement? And every time Trump is asked about Epstein he goes pale, and either doesn't answer the question, or ends the interview.

Jeffrey Epstein sleeps with the fishes. I wonder, who did the angling?

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Donald Trump always says that everytime one of his friends or associates gets in legal trouble. More than likely Trump did.

epstein's dead - and I do not believe foe a second that it was suicide, and what's her name is keeping quiet lest she suffer the same fate, so the world will never know the full truth.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

There will always be a post election debate touching on various aspects of the campaign. This summer an American I met told me the Americans will not vote for a woman to be their President. I have mentioned this before somewhere, but I see no debate about it in this coverage. I would go further and suggest that just as a lot of Republican politics is determined to roll back the reforms of the 1960s, with Abortion the leading issue, so if you dig deeper, the 'Moral Majority', the 'NeoCons' and now the 'Trumpits' are just as focused on ending same sex relations and marriage, and moreover they would if they thought it possible make divorce illegal. At the root these policies suggest that the US has gone too far in giving women equal rights, for the simple reason the people who vote Republican don't think women are, or should be treated as equals. The almost total focus on transgender rights and why they should be abolished everywhere, is concerned with male to female people to the exclusion of female to male, though I might be wrong on this.

Key question: would any other woman have done better than Harris?

If Trump and his allies in the Federal Govt, Congress and the State legislatures get their way the next 4 years may see women the biggest losers of this phase of American history.

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I think there is something to be said for the fact that on his way to Presidency, Donald Trump is 4-0 against women candidates. Yes, I'm counting Jill Stein. You can also make the case that Harris losing was just continuing the trend of voters rejecting the incumbents in the most recent elections that took take place in a post Pandemic world. I also saw an argument recently that said Biden's unpopularity played a part in Harris' defeat as well.

Having said all that, one of the reasons why Kamala Harris lost is because she was a flawed candidate who became the Democratic nominee through a dubious process. A nominee that it looks like Obama didn't want and George Clooney is having buyer's remorse about. Despite how well she did for being on the top of the ticket for only 3.5 months, she ran a flawed campaign that seemed to be only good at two things. Going into debt and racking up celebrity endorsements.

To answer your question though. If Nikki Haley would won the Republican nomination, I think she could have beaten Biden or Harris.

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

I think there is something to be said for the fact that on his way to Presidency, Donald Trump is 4-0 against women candidates. Yes, I'm counting Jill Stein. You can also make the case that Harris losing was just continuing the trend of voters rejecting the incumbents in the most recent elections that took take place in a post Pandemic world. I also saw an argument recently that said Biden's unpopularity played a part in Harris' defeat as well.

Having said all that, one of the reasons why Kamala Harris lost is because she was a flawed candidate who became the Democratic nominee through a dubious process. A nominee that it looks like Obama didn't want and George Clooney is having buyer's remorse about. Despite how well she did for being on the top of the ticket for only 3.5 months, she ran a flawed campaign that seemed to be only good at two things. Going into debt and racking up celebrity endorsements.

To answer your question though. If Nikki Haley would won the Republican nomination, I think she could have beaten Biden or Harris.

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Yep!
And Blacks didn't support Harris during the 2020 primaries so why on earth did people think Blacks would support Harris now is most strange!

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

I think there is something to be said for the fact that on his way to Presidency, Donald Trump is 4-0 against women candidates. Yes, I'm counting Jill Stein. You can also make the case that Harris losing was just continuing the trend of voters rejecting the incumbents in the most recent elections that took take place in a post Pandemic world. I also saw an argument recently that said Biden's unpopularity played a part in Harris' defeat as well.

Having said all that, one of the reasons why Kamala Harris lost is because she was a flawed candidate who became the Democratic nominee through a dubious process. A nominee that it looks like Obama didn't want and George Clooney is having buyer's remorse about. Despite how well she did for being on the top of the ticket for only 3.5 months, she ran a flawed campaign that seemed to be only good at two things. Going into debt and racking up celebrity endorsements.

To answer your question though. If Nikki Haley would won the Republican nomination, I think she could have beaten Biden or Harris.

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Completely Agree.

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

I think there is something to be said for the fact that on his way to Presidency, Donald Trump is 4-0 against women candidates. Yes, I'm counting Jill Stein. You can also make the case that Harris losing was just continuing the trend of voters rejecting the incumbents in the most recent elections that took take place in a post Pandemic world. I also saw an argument recently that said Biden's unpopularity played a part in Harris' defeat as well.

Having said all that, one of the reasons why Kamala Harris lost is because she was a flawed candidate who became the Democratic nominee through a dubious process. A nominee that it looks like Obama didn't want and George Clooney is having buyer's remorse about. Despite how well she did for being on the top of the ticket for only 3.5 months, she ran a flawed campaign that seemed to be only good at two things. Going into debt and racking up celebrity endorsements.

To answer your question though. If Nikki Haley would won the Republican nomination, I think she could have beaten Biden or Harris.

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Your comment on Haley surprises me. but that is because I found her weak and just not impressive, something I also felt hearing her at the UN, but may also be due to my not living in the US and having so different a take on what happens there. Also, anyone hostile to Trump would as a reaction support any alternative, but I think it is now clearer how the Democrats screwed up.

Are the divisions in the US now so deep, that even if Trump makes a mess of the place, people who voted Republican will not flip, or not flip in enough numbers to make a difference? Here is a telling, if bleak assessment -

"Just a dozen years ago, there were Democratic senators from Iowa, North Dakota, Ohio, Arkansas, Alaska, North Carolina, Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, Missouri, Montana (two!), and West Virginia.Today, there’s close to a zero chance of a Democrat being elected to the Senate from any of these states.
Surveys show that Americans find it increasingly important to live around people who share their political values.
Animosity toward those in the opposing party is higher than at any time in living memory. Forty-two percent of registered voters believe Americans in the other party are “downright evil.”".
How Trump could bring on a second civil war | Opinion

But is this a 'Cold' civil war rather than a 'hot' one?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Are the divisions in the US now so deep, that even if Trump makes a mess of the place, people who voted Republican will not flip, or not flip in enough numbers to make a difference?

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It would take less than 1% of voters to flip to change the result, and more than that have been changing their minds in recent elections. This is actually the first time since the 19th century that the White House has changed hands three elections running.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

It would take less than 1% of voters to flip to change the result, and more than that have been changing their minds in recent elections. This is actually the first time since the 19th century that the White House has changed hands three elections running.

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But isn't this an aggregate statistic? The US resembles the UK before Blair, when elections were won or lost on swing constituencies and it was unthinkable that apart from a few enclaves, anyone south of London would vote Labour. De-Industrialization, elderly Conservatives dying, and abstentions gave Labour a stunning victory in 1997 in precisely those areas it had not won votes in before, while Brexit added another phenomenon to the mix known as the 'red wall'- once solid Labour constituencies in the North now voting Conservative.

I guess the argument is that there appear to be permanent Republican majorities in State elections, and in Texas because the boundaries are drawn to get by the demographic changes that some think make some districts naturally more Democrat than Republican, as may also be true in other States. And as States take over from the Federal Govt as the main Government in people's lives, it is surely elections in the States that matter most now/

But I am not a numbers type of person, so I don't know how solid these trends are. The irony is that if the new Trump experience is as bad as some think it can be, enough once Trump voters might flip.

And she burned through nearly 2.5 BILLION dollars doing it. That weasel lawyer Morgan, says she's done after this.

Haley - maybe. I would have voted for her, even over Trump, but I'm not a republican so I can't vote in my state's primary elections.

Remember that she put a LOT of black men in prison while AG in CA.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

It would take less than 1% of voters to flip to change the result, and more than that have been changing their minds in recent elections. This is actually the first time since the 19th century that the White House has changed hands three elections running.

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I'd have to look up individual state margins to check on this, but Trump moved the margins to the right in nearly EVERY state this time around. And this is with his VERY HIGH negatives. He's off the ballot next time and if he even does a half decent job this time, then JD Vance will eat the lunch or any potential dem candidate in 2028. I myself never liked Trump, but he was Better than the alternative, and his policies were good for Most Americans, especially the poorer citizens.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

But isn't this an aggregate statistic?

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No, it's based on the margin of 1.7% in the tipping point state (Pennsylvania). The margins in Michigan and Wisconsin were smaller, and if those three states went the other way then the result would change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_U...ntial_election

There's every chance that many of the predictions made after this election will look silly in 4 years time, just as many of the predictions made 4 years ago look silly now.

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Originally Posted by Paladin

Remember that she put a LOT of black men in prison while AG in CA.

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You were complaining about crime before and now you are complaining about criminals being locked up?

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Originally Posted by Paladin

Remember that she put a LOT of black men in prison while AG in CA.

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Democrats seem to have FORGOT this and continue to be confused as to why she didn't win the Black vote even during the 2020 primaries and still wondered why she didn't win in 2024.

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Democrats seem to have FORGOT this and continue to be confused as to why she didn't win the Black vote even during the 2020 primaries and still wondered why she didn't win in 2024.

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Are you saying Harris lost 'the Black vote' (what is that? You have questioned its assumptions before) because of her record as Attorney General of California, and not because of the record of Biden and Harris over the last 4 years?

A Daniel lost to judgment!

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Originally Posted by filghy2

You were complaining about crime before and now you are complaining about criminals being locked up?

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I NEVER said that the people she put away back then did or didn't deserve it; that was in CA and it was some 20 years ago. Nut Now it's a free for all in these cities because there is no fear of any negative consequence from committing these crimes. and she encouraged funding for release of the MN rioters back in 2020, while Minneapolis was burning, and its then governor waited for several days before calling up troops to finally start to stem the violence.

That all said, the primary reason for her defeat was the abysmal performance of her and biden the past 5 4 years and the continued gaslighting / straight out lying to the American people.

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Originally Posted by Paladin

That all said, the primary reason for her defeat was the abysmal performance of her and biden the past 5 4 years and the continued gaslighting / straight out lying to the American people.

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Here's a thought. Rather than endless, repetitive rubbishing of the outgoing administration, how about you actually talk about what the incoming administration is likely to do? It's kind of weird that you voted for the guy, yet you avoid any discussion of his policies, apart from you go-to line that the alternative would be worse. Are you really going to spend the next 4 years saying that?

Well, first, he wants to bring back US oil independence (by oil I also mean natural gas as appropriate) and extend it to oil dominance. This will have several effects:

It will lower the global price of oil, which will weaken petrol-chemical dependent countries like iran and russia.
It will lower the price of fuels here dramatically. This will have the further effect of lowering the transportation component of all goods and services sold here, and thus actually help LOWER prices for goods of all types here, because even if inflation goes to zero, that does not mean prices will drop.

Second he wants to lessen the regulatory burden here, which is the opposite of the feckless, foppish dolt has done for the past 4 years. It's actually needed for the above to take full effect. And no I do NOT mean pollute the hell out of the US. Our energy production is among the cleanest in the world.

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Originally Posted by Paladin

Our energy production is among the cleanest in the world.

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Your evidence for this claim is what? Come on, produce a credible source.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Your evidence for this claim is what? Come on, produce a credible source.

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You already know that to be true so stop gaslighting.

In case folks are still confused about why Harris didn't even make it out of the primaries....
Kamala Harris Hopes You'll Forget Her Record as a Drug Warrior & Draconian Prosecutor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-SaRDG6V-s

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Originally Posted by Paladin

You already know that to be true so stop gaslighting.

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No I don't know it because you just keep making the assertion without providing any evidence. As usual, you have none.

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Originally Posted by Paladin

It will lower the price of fuels here dramatically. This will have the further effect of lowering the transportation component of all goods and services sold here, and thus actually help LOWER prices for goods of all types here, because even if inflation goes to zero, that does not mean prices will drop.

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Annual inflation has never fallen below zero since the 1950s, even when fuel prices were are falling. Evidently, it's not the dominant determining factor that you seem to think it is.
https://www.investopedia.com/inflati...y-year-7253832

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Yep!
And Blacks didn't support Harris during the 2020 primaries so why on earth did people think Blacks would support Harris now is most strange!

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Democrats seem to have FORGOT this and continue to be confused as to why she didn't win the Black vote even during the 2020 primaries and still wondered why she didn't win in 2024.

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

In case folks are still confused about why Harris didn't even make it out of the primaries....
Kamala Harris Hopes You'll Forget Her Record as a Drug Warrior & Draconian Prosecutor

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You seem a little obsessed with this woman. How many posts on the exact same point now? These are just from the past week.

You were also one who was complaining about crime, so what is your actual position. Do you want to be tougher on crime or easier?

I saw this article on the Wall Street Journal website. For those of you who were saying why didn't Democrats speak publicly about Biden's mental decline and ask him to withdraw from the race until after the debate in June. Well, here is your answer.

How the White House Functioned With a Diminished Biden in Charge
Aides kept meetings short and controlled access, top advisers acted as go-betweens and public interactions became more scripted. The administration denied Biden has declined.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/biden-w...hare_permalink

Yeah and everyone with two eyes could see Joey's diminished capacity by his gait and how he struggled to read a teleprompter.

Now they leak he feels like he could have beat Trump if he stayed in the race. Go back to Delaware Joey.

Democrats ran the worst campaign, possibly ever, and expected to win.

Biden Accused of Abandoning Transgender People in Final Actions as President
https://www.newsweek.com/president-j...p-2025-2009308

Make of it what you will....

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Biden Accused of Abandoning Transgender People in Final Actions as President
https://www.newsweek.com/president-j...p-2025-2009308

Make of it what you will....

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Classic Fanti. Did you even read the article past the headline? The two cases that were cited seem to be in line with views you've previously expressed yourself.

"In his final full month in office, Biden abandoned plans to implement protections for transgender student-athletes. Additionally, he signed legislation that included provisions eliminating coverage for transgender medical treatments for the children of military service members."