Is Tgirl a better word - and should that become the norm?

Not to mention if we weren't "DIFFERENT" there wouldn't be different labels and definitions for each of us. So your point to me is silly..not to mention IRRELEVANT, IGNORANT, and OFFENSIVE to a trans-woman. We are not the same...you can focus on the body all you like. I focus on what goes on upstairs.

We are different............not better..not higher..but different.

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with the outside body..I know plenty of drag queens that underwent surgeries and taken hormones to look the part. Doesn't mean they are transsexual, especially since they still IDENTIFY as GAY MEN at the end of the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KellyShore

Krissy I find you are on the defense? I am not sure why......I have plenty of friends that are crossdressers and drag queens. Those same friends would say they are NOT like me. So why the defense I have no idea. They take off their make up at night and go back to being the men they IDENTIFY being. They are happy individuals.

A transsexual "drag queen" aka show girl still views herself as a woman..just like women who do drag shows or "celebrity impersonators" I know several women who make money as drag queens. At the end of the day though they are CIS people who are either straight, bi, or gay females. Being a drag queen is a job..it's not a CONDITION..not dysphoric.

So to say we are like someone who get off in panties or fetishist or doing it strickly for financial and fun purposes is WRONG. You are saying because we all have the same outer form and some go farther in their goal of femininity we are still the same. Which is not the CASE.. being a TRANSSEXUAL has everything to do with the upstairs and how we IDENTIFY ourselves! It has everything to do with NOT being happy with what we see in the mirror. Feeling like we are trapped in a body that seems foreign to us. Having objects on it we can't deal with. I don't know any crossdressers/drag queens that have this issue.

Crossdressers/Drag Queens are typically CIS STRAIGHT/GAY/BISEXUAL men. They don't need counseling to find who they are. They are not dealing with hating their body on the outside. Not to mention I often found many transsexuals aren't even transsexuals. Just because they have boobs or take hormones doesn't make them TRANSSEXUAL. I know plenty of drag queens that identify as gay men, but got boobs etc so they could look the part more for their JOB. Just like I know many so called transsexuals that escort that got surgeries etc so they could make more money or they are fetishist on the glamour of being a woman and the validation they feel it brings from men.

Many girls self-medicate and don't even go to a counselor understand what's going on with them. Even when they do seek counseling I feel many are misdiagnosed and have body dysphoria instead of being transsexual. Due to not every psyhochologist is well versed in the topic. People are still very unaware of what goes on inside a transsexuals head even the CIS people that have studied us for years! Even people that think they know all about us because they interact with us. Until someone is a transsexual they can NEVER fully understand us. They will never know how we feel inside or how depressing and skin crawling it can be to be US. This is why I said what I said. Even when we explain our side I don't think people GRASP it totally.

So again I don't know WHY you are on the defense...

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First of all... I noticed you didn't answer the questions I posed or define the terms I asked you to define.

Kelly... I'm not on the defense or "offended" by what you've said at all. I disagree with it. And, since you posted it on a public forum, I can only surmise that it is for the purposes of discussion. Just because I don't agree and challenge a point, doesn't mean I'm being defensive... it means I don't agree and wish to discuss it. That being said...

Specifically, this is what you said, that I disagree with (anything in bold and in parenthesis is my commentary):

"I don't feel crossdressers/transvestites/drag queens (I find it incredible that you, being supposedly learned on the subject, would lump these three together - the two first terms are possibly interchangeable - the term Drag Queen is completely separate and should not even part of the discussion) should be under the umbrella (I'm assuming you mean the "Transgender" umbrella) due to them being CIS people not suffering from dysphoria [sic] I feel it confuses the public on what a trans-woman really is and enforces the fact we are dressing up for thrills and laughs."

Let us look at your statement... which is unequivocal. That is to say, you have not left any room for debate... no modifiers used ("some", "many", "a few", "the majority" etc. CD's, TV's, drag queens). If you wish to revise your statement then do so.If I take it as it stands, you are saying by implication:

1. No CD/TV/DQ (in your opinion) suffers dysphoria. It is therefore logical to assume that you are in fact saying, no CD/TV/DQ is EVER Transsexual.

2. ALL CD/TV/DQ dress up for "thrills and laughs". I would ask you... WHAT are you basing this statement on?

Now, that being said, you have LARGELY walked back your first post/statement in the latter half of your most recent post/statement. Would you have done so if you were never challenged on it? I strongly doubt it.

THIS is the "superiority complex" that I am addressing and that has got to stop. Transsexuals cannot issue statements about Transgender individuals that are WRONG, because they think it strengthens their positions, or because they know that other like-minded Transsexuals will give them a hearty pat on the back and a thumbs-up, and then only walk them back or correct them when challenged. It is irresponsible at best and damaging to your (our?) larger cause at worst (it creates division).

My position and petition is this: issue the correct statement FIRST... to begin with... one that is accurate, correct, and doesn't need to be challenged because it is TRUE. Otherwise, if you go unchallenged, you are just spreading an incorrect, divisive, and damaging view... which is what you're really arguing against in the first place (i.e. - you dislike that the public perception is that Transsexual = men in panties).

As to your last paragraph...
And you blame the Transgender community for the perceptions of the public at large? Isn't that a pretty large burden to put on a relatively few individuals? Wouldn't you be better served by saying:

You know what? Transsexuals had better start getting their acts together, unifying, and educating the public in real, tangible ways instead of just blaming Transgender individuals all the time.

I will take tangible action over cheap talk any day of the week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

First of all... I noticed you didn't answer the questions I posed or define the terms I asked you to define.

Kelly... I'm not on the defense or "offended" by what you've said at all. I disagree with it. And, since you posted it on a public forum, I can only surmise that it is for the purposes of discussion. Just because I don't agree and challenge a point, doesn't mean I'm being defensive... it means I don't agree and wish to discuss it. That being said...

Specifically, this is what you said, that I disagree with (anything in bold and in parenthesis is my commentary):

"I don't feel crossdressers/transvestites/drag queens (I find it incredible that you, being supposedly learned on the subject, would lump these three together - the two first terms are possibly interchangeable - the term Drag Queen is completely separate and should not even part of the discussion) should be under the umbrella (I'm assuming you mean the "Transgender" umbrella) due to them being CIS people not suffering from dysphoria [sic] I feel it confuses the public on what a trans-woman really is and enforces the fact we are dressing up for thrills and laughs."

Let us look at your statement... which is unequivocal. That is to say, you have not left any room for debate... no modifiers used ("some", "many", "a few", "the majority" etc. CD's, TV's, drag queens). If you wish to revise your statement then do so.If I take it as it stands, you are saying by implication:

1. No CD/TV/DQ (in your opinion) suffers dysphoria. It is therefore logical to assume that you are in fact saying, no CD/TV/DQ is EVER Transsexual.

2. ALL CD/TV/DQ dress up for "thrills and laughs". I would ask you... WHAT are you basing this statement on?

Now, that being said, you have LARGELY walked back your first post/statement in the latter half of your most recent post/statement. Would you have done so if you were never challenged on it? I strongly doubt it.

THIS is the "superiority complex" that I am addressing and that has got to stop. Transsexuals cannot issue statements about Transgender individuals that are WRONG, because they think it strengthens their positions, or because they know that other like-minded Transsexuals will give them a hearty pat on the back and a thumbs-up, and then only walk them back or correct them when challenged. It is irresponsible at best and damaging to your (our?) larger cause at worst (it creates division).

My position and petition is this: issue the correct statement FIRST... to begin with... one that is accurate, correct, and doesn't need to be challenged because it is TRUE. Otherwise, if you go unchallenged, you are just spreading an incorrect, divisive, and damaging view... which is what you're really arguing against in the first place (i.e. - you dislike that the public perception is that Transsexual = men in panties).

As to your last paragraph...
And you blame the Transgender community for the perceptions of the public at large? Isn't that a pretty large burden to put on a relatively few individuals? Wouldn't you be better served by saying:

You know what? Transsexuals had better start getting their acts together, unifying, and educating the public in real, tangible ways instead of just blaming Transgender individuals all the time.

I will take tangible action over cheap talk any day of the week.

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My opinion comes from this Krissy!

I have been a female impersonator and did pageants for years! Along the way coming across all sorts of different entertainers and people. People who I assumed were transsexuals because they had boobs, facial surgeries, and took hormones. I was taken aback when they told me oh girl no I just do this for the money I'm still a gay man.

I have many friends who are crossdressers. Mostly straight and mostly Republican men with great jobs.

This where my opinion stems from..

If a drag queen/transvestite/crossdresser IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN IN THE HEAD..they are not any of those..they are TRANSSEXUAL

How is it so hard for you comprehend this??

A drag queen/transvestite/crossdresser do not typically identify as anything but being a MAN or a WOMAN..they enjoy living their lives as what they were born.

And theate and tell me how does anyone who isn't a transsexual have the right to say we are the same or what is OFFENSIVE and not OFFENSIVE...

We are NOT THE SAME..no matter how you cut it..

I am 31 years old I have been conversing and talking to people online and asking questions and even playing characters or saying things to get reactions from people for KNOWLEDGE.

We are not the same..never will be..

and I did answer the question go back..I even posted a diagram..

There is no superiority in me saying crossdressers, transvestites, or drag queens are not like us. That's you reflecting your own issues and problems.

I would like to know how we are the same Krissy?? Other than that we were all born genetically male...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KellyShore

Not to mention if we weren't "DIFFERENT" there wouldn't be different labels and definitions for each of us. So your point to me is silly..not to mention IRRELEVANT, IGNORANT, and OFFENSIVE to a trans-woman. We are not the same...you can focus on the body all you like. I focus on what goes on upstairs.

We are different............not better..not higher..but different.

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with the outside body..I know plenty of drag queens that underwent surgeries and taken hormones to look the part. Doesn't mean they are transsexual, especially since they still IDENTIFY as GAY MEN at the end of the day.

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Kelly:

Where... PLEASE TELL ME WHERE... I have EVER stated that all CD/TV are Transsexual?

Find it and I will disappear off this board forever... and that is a promise. So search hard because you would make a lot of people happy.

I have never postulated such a view and never will.

What I HAVE argued is that the two terms "Transsexual" and "Transgender" are not mutually exclusive. I have yet to meet a self-identified Transsexual who can explain to me LOGICALLY why they are or should be mutually exclusive.... YET... almost every self-identified, academic Transsexual (I've also met others who just don't care - just as clarification) will argue the point to their dying breath.

My point of view is this:

You can be Transsexual... and never change a thing about yourself physically or make any effort to undergo "transition" at all. Period. It just means you have adapted mentally and physically to live with the feelings you have and/or have personal or external reasons for preventing a physical alteration.

You can be Transgender and slowly (or quickly) come to the realization (through education, exploration, self-examination, etc.) that you are, in fact, Transsexual.

I will take some advice from a different thread here though.
Kelly, if you can't define your terms, here and now in writing, we have nothing further to discuss.

Define, in your own words:
Transsexual
Transgender

And state plainly - In your own opinion, can you become Transsexual, or is this a state of being that is dependent only one's cognitive ability?

Republicans screaming about homosexuality who crossdress and bend for the strap on and/or bbc lmfao u can't make this shit up.

Transgender is an UMBRELLA TERM...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING JUST A TRANSSEXUAL..IT IS AN UMBRELLA TERM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Meaning anyone that was born with a birth defect or was born genetically the opposite sex they dress as are put under that umbrella term. Because society deems we are all the same.....RIGHT??

And I said I was quite aware and stated TRANSSEXUALISM HAS NOTHING DO WITH THE OUTSIDE APPEARANCE!! IT HAS TO DO WITH WHATS GOING ON UPSTAIRS. THOUGH I would ARGUE JUST BECAUSE A PERSON GETS USED TO the idea of living as a woman OR LIKES THE ATTENTION LIVING AS A WOMAN DOESN'T MAKE THEM A TRANSSEXUAL IN MY OPINION STILL! Just because they are happy living as a woman over living as a man doesn't mean they are transsexual. Many of these people find it maybe they are more attractive as a woman, get more attention, or find it easier. They are doing it for a more selfish purpose than it being about whats going on inside their HEAD...

I have met and counseled plenty of men that identified as women, but due to family and being scared would never transition. I still treated them as woman though, because I know it might be the only comfort they will get. I can't imagine the imprisoned state they have to deal with.

So again I do not under your "superiority" crap.

You just said that we aren't the same..so where in the hell are we disagreeing??

Krissy I have a long standing as an activist and counseling at transgender conferences and groups.

I just rejoined with the NCTE to get back into it.

So to say I act superior is offensive...

Edited by me:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KellyShore

There is no superiority in me saying crossdressers, transvestites, or drag queens are not like us. That's you reflecting your own issues and problems.

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Look, I could pick your post apart and talk about you making choices, and say that you've just proven my point, and blah blah blah. We're all tired of me doing that. So I will just say this to sum up what you've said:

So, there is no superiority in GENETICALLY BORN WOMEN saying that Transsexuals are not like them. If you have a problem with that, you're just reflecting your own issues and problems.

Your own argument defeats the very equality that you say you want and belies the bigotry you are unwilling to face.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GroobyKrissy

Edited by me:



Look, I could pick your post apart and talk about you making choices, and say that you've just proven my point, and blah blah blah. We're all tired of me doing that. So I will just say this to sum up what you've said:

So, there is no superiority in GENETICALLY BORN WOMEN saying that Transsexuals are not like them. If you have a problem with that, you're just reflecting your own issues and problems.

Your own argument defeats the very equality that you say you want and belies the bigotry you are unwilling to face.

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No honestly I have no issue with them saying that, here is why.

I don't presume to know 100% what it's like to be a woman, just like I don't presume to know what it's like to be post-operative. At this moment in my life, because I'm non-op I will never know it. It's why when I speak to post-operative trans-women it fascinates me. I even sometimes yearn for that side of life, however I just don't feel the surgery is up to par for my liking.

I know I'm a transsexual woman and what I deal with. I know a 100% what being a transsexual is about. That's what I DO KNOW.

I am a woman in my mind, but I think I miss out on things a cis woman deals with. Just like many women I have spoken to who can't have babies they feel like they are missing on something about being a woman.

It's not a superiority thing..it's about knowing that trans-women/men identify as the opposite sex they were born and crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens are typically CIS people that do it part time. They live as men and are happy that way. They are typically treated like any other man as long as nobody knows.

A transsexual doesn't have that luxory, but what we do have is contempt and confusion from mainstream society thinking we do it for sexual purposes, fetish, laughs, and financial purposes. That's what we get..so you really don't understand why it would annoy us??

If anyone is acting superior it's you...