For the Brits: When will BREXIT referendum happen ?

Does anyone remember Brexit? I feel almost embarrassed to read my posts above, but whatever the process has been frozen because the negotiations which were supposed to begin in March have obviousy not happened. It remains to be seen if as a result the EU and the UK can negotiate even an interim trade deal by December 2020.

In the meantime, if anyone wants to read the full Report by the Labour Party into anti-semitism and how it did not handle it, complete with uncensored insults by party officials directed at the leadership, the full report of over 800 pages is here-

https://www.docdroid.net/vUujX67/200...t-finalpdf-pdf

A bit more than insults.
And not just by party 'officials'.

The negotiations on the trade deal due to be signed in December are at an impasse. No doubt Covid 19 has been a road block, but so too have the positions taken by both sides, in which it appears, the UK in the negotiations wants all the benefits of membership with none of the responsibilities, thus Michel Barnier has stated:

“Every time we meet they say they would be happy to have a Canada-style agreement, but at the same time ... they ask for far more from us than is available under the Canadian model,” Barnier said, citing the UK’s desire for “virtually full freedom of movement” for short visits, maintenance of “existing arrangements” on electricity interconnection, as well as “broad and widespread” recognition of professional qualifications to enable British lawyers, accountants and auditors to work in the EU.
“We are not going to bargain away our European values to the benefit of the British economy,” Barnier said. “Economic and trading fair play is not for sale. It is not ‘a nice to have’, it is ‘a must have’.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-in-stalemate

If these negotiations cannot move on, is the UK heading towards a No Deal exit? The militants, who still claim the UK can, indeed must leave the EU without any of the 'Canada' style arrangements, are now looking at Boris Johnson, worried perhaps that he may seek an extension to the negotiations, arguing that Covid 19 was an unexpected intrusion and that not even a 'bare bones' agreement can be reached over the summer in time for a December signature.

It looks to me like Boris Johnson has lost his sparkle. I don't know if it is the baby keeping him awake at early hours, or the physical toll of his encounter with Covid 19 -which was also an encouner with Death-but I wonder, is Boris about to rock his party with an amendment to the law, or is he going to take the UK out of the EU without a trade deal when Global Trade is in recession?

It was supposed to be our Brave New World. Lord of the Flies might be a better model.

Andrew Rawnsley has written an interesting article on the troubled negotiations between the UK and the EU on the trade agreement that is supposed to be signed in December, to mark the formal end of the transition period, and the beginning of the UK's 'independence'- he notes the fact that because the UK has remained in the Single Market and the Customs Union, it has meant that supplies of food and other goods have continued to flow into the UK, as traders and hauliers are exempt from isolation guidelines, just as they are exempt from the 14-day quarantine regulations about to be imposed on arrivals from outsde the UK.

Johnson is also now considering bringing forward the relaxation on the ban on pubs and restaurants opening, terrified that if the hospitality industry is not 'released from lockdown' now, 3.5 million are set to lose their jobs- though I don't think the breaking of physical distancing guidelines by Black Lives Matter demonstrators has been a factor.

The question is, if the UK leaves without a deal, will this not plunge the UK into a worse recessions than the one we are moving into? Johnson seems so committed to 'gettiing Brexit done' it may not be possible for him to compromise any more, but we shall see.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...amitous-brexit

see also
https://in.reuters.com/article/healt...-idINKBN23E029

It is not looking good unless Boris is going to pull some rabbits out of the hat at the last minute -either he undermines his postion by accepting compromises, or he goes for broke.

"Every stage of the UK’s uncoupling from the EU has been mapped out by treaty, including the expiry of transitional arrangements at the end of this year. By then, a free trade deal is supposed to have been negotiated and ratified. That is getting harder with each passing week. The impediment is British reluctance to recognise what is realistically available, or understand the imbalances of power in negotiations between a lone country and a continental trading bloc. In June, the prime minister said he could see no reason why broad agreement might not be reached in July. But there was a reason, and he was it. Mr Johnson has not paid close attention, made choices or given his negotiators bandwidth for compromise.
The UK still demands pristine sovereignty, with no obligation to align its standards with EU markets, plus a right to subsidise domestic industries to a degree not permitted under Brussels rules. The EU will not grant privileged market access on those terms, because doing so would undermine its own industries. Eurosceptic hardliners say they would prefer no deal to any obligation to match continental standards.
Whether that is a bluff or not is a question that interests EU leaders less and less. They have other things to do. At the instigation of Germany, Brexit has been dropped from the agenda of a top-level European meeting next week on the grounds that there is nothing new to discuss. Mr Johnson knows what the options are – they range from close integration to something more distant, with tariffs and quotas – and he must choose.
But he doesn’t. Instead, the government still treats Brexit in the most superficial manner, as if the performance of readiness counts as the real thing. A report that Tony Abbott, a former Australian prime minister, might take on a senior trade advisory role is a case in point. Setting aside Mr Abbott’s notoriously rebarbative character, the appointment would be consistent with the myth, common among Brexit supporters, that trade deals are conjured into being by swaggering personalities.
The reality is that good outcomes in a trade deal are achieved by the application of time, attention to detail, experienced negotiators and a rational appraisal of the other side’s interests. The UK government is deficient on all those metrics."
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...hnsons-nemesis

Nice to see we're taking charge of our own borders...And turning the 'Garden of England' into a truck-stop!

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Originally Posted by Jericho

Nice to see we're taking charge of our own borders...And turning the 'Garden of England' into a truck-stop!

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Kent today, Wales tomorrrow. "Show me your papers..." (and they won't mean Rizla).

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Kent today, Wales tomorrow. "Show me your papers..." (and they won't mean Rizla).

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Rizla?
We'll have none of that French froggery in patriotic brexit Britain, thank you kindly!

Right, I'm off to shag a flag and complain about a necklace!

As deadlines for a conclusion to the trade deal with the EU come and go, but can't go on for much longer, the drama that has convulsed Dowing St for the past few days shoud really be seen in the context of Brexit, given that the chidish rages and accusations of the Prime Minister, his immiment wife, the special advisers and the new Press team are just what is expected from an incompetent manager and the aggressive take-no-prisoner Leave heroes who have been or had been Johnson's Myrmidons.

The fear among the Leave fanatics in the House of Commons is that the PM who has not been around much to talk to them, is now surrounded by women, and women who are lukewarm on his precious Brexit project. Given that some compromises will be required if the UK is to end the transition out of the EU on January 1st with a deal, the anxiety among the fanatics is that he will give away so much the UK will still retain too many links to the EU to valdate their understanding of what Brexit is.

On cue this week, and perhaps in a personal lament for his departing idol in DC, Nigel Farage has formed a new party, The Reform Party that he hopes will challenge Johnsn and his Government on Brexit, and maybe stand against Conservative councillors in the local elections next May. Sme of us had hoped this perennial loser would emigrate to the US to get closer to his Billionaire buddy, but that career doesn't seem to be going anywhere, unless the'King of Europe' can get a talkshow on TrumpTV, if it happens.

But it is a fascinating example of how politics can go wrong so quickly -just less than a year ago, Johnson was the Tory hero with an 80-seat majority. Since then, he has lost a lot of the goodwill he had in December 2019, in part because of his atrocious hadling of Covid-19, and in part because the very man who led the Brexit campaign in 2016 is now seen to be a liability in delivering it, unless he decides to go for broke and not sign a trade deal at all.

One of the ironies of the anxiety expressed by some Leave MPs, is that his wife-to-be, Carrie Symonds, who some claim texted him on WhatsApp 25 times an hour when he was in the Commons a few weeks ago and being humiliated by Ed Miliband, and is ridiculed in other places as 'Princess Nuts Nuts', was the head of communications for the Conservative Party -when Theresa May was Prime Mnister, the woman Johnson spent a year stabbing in the back to get her job. Last week when May stood up to reply to Johnson's address on the new lockdown measures, he not only left the chamber before she had finished her first sentence, he demonstrated his contempt for a former Prime Minister, by walking the length of the Commons floor, rather than making a quick one by the Speaker's chair. I wonder what Carrie made of that?

In other words, there is a problem, a whole host of problems, summed up in two words: Boris Johnson.

If you are interested, you can read about the Battle of Downing St here-
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...downing-street

OK ,I know I'm about to demonstrate my hopeless American ignorance of British politics but I was watching the news the other night on PBS and with a "hard exit" looming just weeks away and with the forecasts of the expected economic downturn resulting from a hard exit on top of the economic devastation already resulting from Covid-19 why don't you just call the whole thing off? They showed the results of a recent poll that indicated that 57% of Brits wanted to remain in the EU .
Can't someone just give me a short answer.
"You're a stupid arse", doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by sukumvit boy

OK ,I know I'm about to demonstrate my hopeless American ignorance of British politics but I was watching the news the other night on PBS and with a "hard exit" looming just weeks away and with the forecasts of the expected economic downturn resulting from a hard exit on top of the economic devastation already resulting from Covid-19 why don't you just call the whole thing off? They showed the results of a recent poll that indicated that 57% of Brits wanted to remain in the EU .
Can't someone just give me a short answer.
"You're a stupid arse", doesn't count.

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Article 50 of the Lisbon Tteaty allows any member of the EU to cancel its membership. But it involves a two stage process: an agreement on the terms of withdrawal, and on that basis a trade agreement to organise the independent state’s new relationship with the EU. What the UK was promised would be an easy deal has turned into a sequence of tortuous negotiations on the withdrawal agreement, finalised in January, and now the trade agreement.

A ‘hard Brexit’ is an exit from the EU without a trade agreement, or ‘no deal’, and means the UK having to trade on WTO terms alone, and mostly on hard goods as the WTO has failed to produce a consensus on services. To the Brexit fanatics, a hard exit was always their preferred option, calling it a ‘clean break’, and have accused Johnson of turning compromise into surrender even though right now there are still unresolved issues which mean the UK could leave without a deal. But if there is a deal it must involve compromises on Northern Ireland, fishing rights, and the level of State Aid the two stages engage in. Because international agreements almost always require a compromise. In theory a final decision must be made this week, in practice the EU might extend the talks.

Johnson is going to Brussels for a face to face meeting with Ursula von der Layen tomorrow (Wednesday) but it is hard to know what will come of it, though one sarcastic wag in the Telegraph said Johnson will return with two documents- a surrender, and a marriage certificate....

Apologies for spelling mistake I have only just noticed-
Ursula von der Leyen.

Both UK and EU officials are warning us that there might not be any agreement on trade, and that if this is so, the UK will leave without a deal on December 31st.

Someone who claims inside knowledge of the dinner Johnson had with Ursula von der Leyen las Wednesday, has claimed Johnson attempted to win over Ms Leyen by attacking Michel Barnier and the French, which Ms Leyen did not find amusing, and when she asked him if he had brought any new proposals on trade he said no. Most of the dinner after that seems to have been held in a mixture of silence and unremarkable conversation, the source claiming Johnson did not seem to realize how offensive he had been.

The account is in this twitter feed-
https://twitter.com/PaulBurston/stat...13829978509312

Broris Johnson said today leaving the EU without a deal would be a wonderful thing, yet in 2016 he wrote, in an article for the Telegraph- (the original is hidden behind a paywall)

"Boris Johnson has said the UK there will be “still have access to the single market”, despite Britain’s historic vote to leave the EU.
In his column for The Telegraph, Mr Johnson said: “I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be.
“EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.
“British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.
“Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7104846.html



Boris Johnson -a liar, an idiot, or both? I am not sure if he even cares what happens in January.

A no-deal may have bad effectgs in the short-term, but it's worth it.
Time to end this brexit mess and once and for all we're done.
Maybe we'll rejoin in a few decades - maybe in 2040 a very old Putin will invade the EU and we'll need each for help and out of gratitude they'll let us back in.

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Originally Posted by holzz

A no-deal may have bad effectgs in the short-term, but it's worth it.

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Perhaps you could tell is how a no deal will be worth it in the long term, having also told us how long the 'short-term' will be. Five years? Ten Years? I suggest you address your remarks with regard to - farming, fishing, passporting in the banking and financial sector, fair trade, and UK-Eu co-operation in policing, security and intelligence. It will make for interestig reading.

Euro girls will have to move away from the UK? (serious question)

Citizens of EU countries, or EEA countries, or Switzerland need to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme, this can be done online.

From the UK Government website-

Apply to the EU Settlement Scheme by 30 June 2021 to continue living in the UK - you must have arrived in the UK before January 2021
If you do not apply to the scheme, you may not be able to continue living or working in the UK as you do now.

You do not need to apply if you have: indefinite leave to enter the UK, indefinite leave to remain in the UK, British or Irish citizenship (including ‘dual citizenship’).
Read the guidance:
Apply to the EU Settlement Scheme (settled and pre-settled status)

https://www.gov.uk/transition-check/...nationality-eu

If you’re an EU, EEA or Swiss citizen, you and your family can apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to continue living in the UK after 30 June 2021. You can also apply if you’re the family member of an eligible person of Northern Ireland.
If your application is successful, you’ll get either settled or pre-settled status.
The EEA includes the EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

You may be able to stay in the UK without applying - for example, if you’re an Irish citizen or already have indefinite leave to remain.
https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

Thanks, looks Easy

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Perhaps you could tell is how a no deal will be worth it in the long term, having also told us how long the 'short-term' will be. Five years? Ten Years? I suggest you address your remarks with regard to - farming, fishing, passporting in the banking and financial sector, fair trade, and UK-Eu co-operation in policing, security and intelligence. It will make for interestig reading.

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we've spent years in this limbo.
Who says a no deal would be bad in the long-term? Who even says the short-term effects would be as bad as made out?
I want it to stop, period.

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Originally Posted by holzz

we've spent years in this limbo.
Who says a no deal would be bad in the long-term? Who even says the short-term effects would be as bad as made out?
I want it to stop, period.

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"The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean will be flat again."

John Maynard Keynes

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Originally Posted by holzz

I want it to stop, period.

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Why do you think it will stop? Brexit is not a destination - it can only be the start of a journey toward some other destination. The Brexit delusion is like a person unhappy with their life who imagines all of their problems will be solved if they just quit their job and leave their house and family.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Why do you think it will stop? Brexit is not a destination - it can only be the start of a journey toward some other destination. The Brexit delusion is like a person unhappy with their life who imagines all of their problems will be solved if they just quit their job and leave their house and family.

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I want the process of leaving to stop. four years is too long. then we can move on as a country. Brexit is a destination. So once we leave the EU, then we can go on to the next chapter.

also, i'm just stating my opinion. don't get fucking terse, as i say what I fucking wish. get over that reality.

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Originally Posted by holzz

we've spent years in this limbo.
Who says a no deal would be bad in the long-term? Who even says the short-term effects would be as bad as made out?
I want it to stop, period.

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I am disappointed with your post. Far from being in 'Limbo' since the Referendum in 2016, the UK and the EU have been engaged in an intense negotiation process. It was always going to be a process in two phases, because that it is the legal basis of Article 50: phase one, negotiate terms of withdrawal, phase two, negotiate a long-term terms of trade agreement.

If you recall the lies that were told by Leave campaigners in 2016, leaving the EU would be easy, because on leaving the UK the four fundamental freedoms of the Single Market -the free movement of people, capital, goods and services- would be modified but not substantially changed. Only during the first phase of negotiations it became clear that such freedoms would indeed be changed precisely because the UK had left -the EU was not going to allow the UK all the advantages of full EU membership without the costs and legal responsibilities, while for its part, Theresa May was fighting a losing battle with her own Party on what should be conceded and what should not.

Two things stand out -first, the fact that because the 2016 Referendum was just a stunt its promoters never expected to win, they had no idea what Brexit meant, either the Article 50 process, or its consequences, which thus meant complete and stunning ignorance of the postion Northern Ireland was in with regard to the Customs Union. Second, there was a blithe indifference to facts shaped by English arrogance -for example, the Germans will want a quick deal to protect the hundreds of thousands of cars they sell to the UK every year. When I put this argument to a German friend, he all but collapsed in a heap of laughter pointing out Germany sold more than 20 million vehicles to China in one year. He then added, 'You voted to leave, so fuck off!'

We have now reached a point where the current trade agreement the EU is offering the UK retains tariff free access to the Single Market, while Boris Johnson says No Deal will be 'Wonderful', indifferent to the huge tariffs that must be imposed on the UK by the WTO in such circumstances. In both the short term, and the long term, the UK will be worse off because it will have detached itself from the largest single market in the world which is also its nearest neighbour. It is rare for Governments to make decisions of such scope on the same basis as flipping a coin in the hope that when it lands, it will be either heads or tails. But then it is, or used to be rare for our Liberal Democracies to elect as its leaders men and women with no substantial expertise in policy making, but a heavy commitment to an image of themselves on TV, as if that was all that matters, and no respect whatsoever for the people without whom there would be no democracy at all. But as is now being suggested with regard to the supporters of Trump and the man himself, do they want to live in an open democracy?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I am disappointed with your post. Far from being in 'Limbo' since the Referendum in 2016, the UK and the EU have been engaged in an intense negotiation process. It was always going to be a process in two phases, because that it is the legal basis of Article 50: phase one, negotiate terms of withdrawal, phase two, negotiate a long-term terms of trade agreement.

If you recall the lies that were told by Leave campaigners in 2016, leaving the EU would be easy, because on leaving the UK the four fundamental freedoms of the Single Market -the free movement of people, capital, goods and services- would be modified but not substantially changed. Only during the first phase of negotiations it became clear that such freedoms would indeed be changed precisely because the UK had left -the EU was not going to allow the UK all the advantages of full EU membership without the costs and legal responsibilities, while for its part, Theresa May was fighting a losing battle with her own Party on what should be conceded and what should not.

Two things stand out -first, the fact that because the 2016 Referendum was just a stunt its promoters never expected to win, they had no idea what Brexit meant, either the Article 50 process, or its consequences, which thus meant complete and stunning ignorance of the postion Northern Ireland was in with regard to the Customs Union. Second, there was a blithe indifference to facts shaped by English arrogance -for example, the Germans will want a quick deal to protect the hundreds of thousands of cars they sell to the UK every year. When I put this argument to a German friend, he all but collapsed in a heap of laughter pointing out Germany sold more than 20 million vehicles to China in one year. He then added, 'You voted to leave, so fuck off!'

We have now reached a point where the current trade agreement the EU is offering the UK retains tariff free access to the Single Market, while Boris Johnson says No Deal will be 'Wonderful', indifferent to the huge tariffs that must be imposed on the UK by the WTO in such circumstances. In both the short term, and the long term, the UK will be worse off because it will have detached itself from the largest single market in the world which is also its nearest neighbour. It is rare for Governments to make decisions of such scope on the same basis as flipping a coin in the hope that when it lands, it will be either heads or tails. But then it is, or used to be rare for our Liberal Democracies to elect as its leaders men and women with no substantial expertise in policy making, but a heavy commitment to an image of themselves on TV, as if that was all that matters, and no respect whatsoever for the people without whom there would be no democracy at all. But as is now being suggested with regard to the supporters of Trump and the man himself, do they want to live in an open democracy?

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Disappointed that I don't share your exact view? pardon me for being an individual!!

May fucked the process up, and BoJo came in and corrected it.

BoJo's exit deal wasn't that different to May's. But he managed to pass it, and we're now - hopefully - reaching the end of this mess. May also called an election but lost seats and had to get the DUP to bolster her up. BoJo didn't. With more decisive leadership, then Brexit would have been done a lot easier. BoJo's only mishap in office is the pandemic and not mismanaging getting out of the EU.
Economics isn't an exact science. For all we know there could be some war which fucks up all of Europe's economies in a few decades, who knows?
Sometimes in life, there aren't always perfect solutions. Brexit happened, so we have to deal with it. We voted out, and we spent a few years fucking up the exiting process, but now we're in sight of the end-goal. We just have to handle this less than desired solution. That's life, imho.

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Originally Posted by holzz

Disappointed that I don't share your exact view? pardon me for being an individual!!

May fucked the process up, and BoJo came in and corrected it.

BoJo's exit deal wasn't that different to May's. But he managed to pass it, and we're now - hopefully - reaching the end of this mess. May also called an election but lost seats and had to get the DUP to bolster her up. BoJo didn't. With more decisive leadership, then Brexit would have been done a lot easier. BoJo's only mishap in office is the pandemic and not mismanaging getting out of the EU.
Economics isn't an exact science. For all we know there could be some war which fucks up all of Europe's economies in a few decades, who knows?
Sometimes in life, there aren't always perfect solutions. Brexit happened, so we have to deal with it. We voted out, and we spent a few years fucking up the exiting process, but now we're in sight of the end-goal. We just have to handle this less than desired solution. That's life, imho.

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You made an error of fact, it is not a matter of opinion -there was no 'limbo' -the UK and EU have been negotiating for 4 years

We are not reaching the end of 'this mess' -Brexit does not begin until January 2021. You might be right with regard to the future -the UK will adapt to changing circumstances, and just as it took years for membership of the EEC/EU to influence the way we live, so it may be years before we know what the full impact of leaving will be. That said, if we leave without a trade deal, then tariffs will be imposed under WTO rules, and the potential for conflict in UK waters with regard to fishing will increase in intensity, I think you understand that. Just as I think you understand how disruptive uncertainty is for businesses that sign contracts and plan for the next 5-10 years. The difference is, I think, that I see few positive outcomes from Brexit, but you do. In fact, I can't see any positive outcomes, but time will tell, and I am not sure I have that time left in which to find out.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

You made an error of fact, it is not a matter of opinion -there was no 'limbo' -the UK and EU have been negotiating for 4 years

We are not reaching the end of 'this mess' -Brexit does not begin until January 2021. You might be right with regard to the future -the UK will adapt to changing circumstances, and just as it took years for membership of the EEC/EU to influence the way we live, so it may be years before we know what the full impact of leaving will be. That said, if we leave without a trade deal, then tariffs will be imposed under WTO rules, and the potential for conflict in UK waters with regard to fishing will increase in intensity, I think you understand that. Just as I think you understand how disruptive uncertainty is for businesses that sign contracts and plan for the next 5-10 years. The difference is, I think, that I see few positive outcomes from Brexit, but you do. In fact, I can't see any positive outcomes, but time will tell, and I am not sure I have that time left in which to find out.

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There was limbo. May made a terrible mess of it, which BoJo sorted. It was common knowledge that May and BoJo's deals were not really that different.
Look, people can say what the fuck they want here. don't police opinions, we're humans YO.

Tom Kibasi in The Guardian this morning summarizes the current situation well-

"The eventual UK-EU deal will be perhaps the first trade agreement in history to envisage more friction rather than less, less economic cooperation and regulatory alignment rather than more. Both sides will be worse off because of it, though the UK is three times as exposed and will be the biggest loser. It suits Johnson to define success as having any deal rather than no deal – a threat that was a political hoax all along. And it suits the Labour party, which has come to believe that voting for Johnson’s deal is in its electoral interest. Titillated by the drama, British political commentators have played their part too, focusing on the fact of a deal rather than the quality of it. As has always been the case with Brexit, there was never a betrayal of Britain in Brussels; that only happens at Westminster."
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ement-friction

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Originally Posted by holzz

There was limbo. May made a terrible mess of it, which BoJo sorted. It was common knowledge that May and BoJo's deals were not really that different.
Look, people can say what the fuck they want here. don't police opinions, we're humans YO.

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Limbo is a condition of stasis, there has been no stasis in this process. It has been grinding on, and on, because the reality of the negotiations smacked the Conservatives in the face, and they have been stunned. At the very least recongize you have used the wrong language to describe the process, I am happy to debate your opinions freely and not 'police' them.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Limbo is a condition of stasis, there has been no stasis in this process. It has been grinding on, and on, because the reality of the negotiations smacked the Conservatives in the face, and they have been stunned. At the very least recongize you have used the wrong language to describe the process, I am happy to debate your opinions freely and not 'police' them.

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no. you reckon this entire site is your personal playground. it's not. people can say what they want here, even if it doesn't meet your spec. wow, the arrogance!

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Originally Posted by holzz

no. you reckon this entire site is your personal playground. it's not. people can say what they want here, even if it doesn't meet your spec. wow, the arrogance!

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We are all equal on this site, it is up to each member to contribute as much as they wish within the rules, and you are a sterling contributor of images, which I am sure most members appreciate as I do. I am confident about some topics, that is not arrogance, but I must point out you make points, often vague, but don't really debate the issues.

In 2021 Northern Ireland becomes our only land border with the EU, it was there for all to see in 2016 but I don't recall signficant debate on it. Is Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union? If it is, then is the UK not in some way bound into the CU and thus the rules set by the EU and judged by the European Court of Justice? Or is the UK Government going to violate the Good Friday Agreement?

Fishing is a minor part of the UK's economy but seems to pack a punch for those whose ignorance enables them to ignore the precedents for sharing that go back centuries. I could go on, but I am not sure you want to go into the details, and yet that is where the devil lurks, waiting to spoil even the best efforts we make to survive in the coming years. It took the Czech Republic and Slovakia ten years to complete the process of separation, I expect the UK and the EU to be negotiating the fine details for a similar length of time, and would therefore not be surprised if you expressed your exasperation with it all.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

We are all equal on this site, it is up to each member to contribute as much as they wish within the rules, and you are a sterling contributor of images, which I am sure most members appreciate as I do. I am confident about some topics, that is not arrogance, but I must point out you make points, often vague, but don't really debate the issues.

In 2021 Northern Ireland becomes our only land border with the EU, it was there for all to see in 2016 but I don't recall signficant debate on it. Is Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union? If it is, then is the UK not in some way bound into the CU and thus the rules set by the EU and judged by the European Court of Justice? Or is the UK Government going to violate the Good Friday Agreement?

Fishing is a minor part of the UK's economy but seems to pack a punch for those whose ignorance enables them to ignore the precedents for sharing that go back centuries. I could go on, but I am not sure you want to go into the details, and yet that is where the devil lurks, waiting to spoil even the best efforts we make to survive in the coming years. It took the Czech Republic and Slovakia ten years to complete the process of separation, I expect the UK and the EU to be negotiating the fine details for a similar length of time, and would therefore not be surprised if you expressed your exasperation with it all.

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pretty false.
you have a plot here who posts what, or who contributes what. the mods never set that out. it's funny to see. expectign the world to conform to your inner dialogue lol.

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Originally Posted by holzz

pretty false.
you have a plot here who posts what, or who contributes what. the mods never set that out. it's funny to see. expectign the world to conform to your inner dialogue lol.

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I don't know what you are referring to, but I do note your reluctance to debate the isses generated by Brexit.

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Originally Posted by holzz

also, i'm just stating my opinion. don't get fucking terse, as i say what I fucking wish. get over that reality.

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Why are you so thin-skinned? If you state an opinion other people are entitled to respond to it. But don't worry - I don't intend to waste any further time responding to your inanities. If others have any sense they will do the same. Enjoy your future discussions with yourself.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

Why are you so thin-skinned? If you state an opinion other people are entitled to respond to it. But don't worry - I don't intend to waste any further time responding to your inanities. If others have any sense they will do the same. Enjoy your future discussions with yourself.

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because you comically think you have extra-rules in this world. hahha. what a dope! that's fine, we all have to believe the rules/norms of some 50-year old who thinks the world fears him. I guess you're this lonely and sad that you wish to manipulate online strangers lol. You're not here for genuine "debate" but just to silence people.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I don't know what you are referring to, but I do note your reluctance to debate the isses generated by Brexit.

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You do it all the time. Thinking you own this space and can dictate what's said and done here. I'm not wrong for calling this out.

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Originally Posted by holzz

You do it all the time. Thinking you own this space and can dictate what's said and done here. I'm not wrong for calling this out.

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I don't 'own' this space any more than you do. I do not dictate anything, because you are free to challenge what I write, and you are wrong, because debating the issues means just that, but is something you do not do. What is your view of the predicament the UK is in with regard to Northern Ireland and the Customs Union? I don't know. What sort of commercial relationship should the UK have with the EU, a privileged one because of its 47-year old relationship, or one based on the deal the EU has with Canada? I don't know. And I doubt on previous evidence that you will tell me. I really don't care what you think of me, but this is an open forum and as the section suggests, it is for people to say what think about Politics and Religion. Why not engage with the issues and drop the personal stuff?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I don't 'own' this space any more than you do. I do not dictate anything, because you are free to challenge what I write, and you are wrong, because debating the issues means just that, but is something you do not do. What is your view of the predicament the UK is in with regard to Northern Ireland and the Customs Union? I don't know. What sort of commercial relationship should the UK have with the EU, a privileged one because of its 47-year old relationship, or one based on the deal the EU has with Canada? I don't know. And I doubt on previous evidence that you will tell me. I really don't care what you think of me, but this is an open forum and as the section suggests, it is for people to say what think about Politics and Religion. Why not engage with the issues and drop the personal stuff?

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i've seen your posts. a whole range of simple stuff. so then you insistence i cannot post isn't logical. you do reckon you own this space and it's funny.

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Originally Posted by holzz

i've seen your posts. a whole range of simple stuff. so then you insistence i cannot post isn't logical. you do reckon you own this space and it's funny.

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You do post, and I do not objeact to any of your posts, but there is a difference between posting a one-sentence opinion, and debating the issues of the thread. Do you have a view on Fishing, on intelligence and security, on Northern Ireland? Instead of focusing on me, debate the issues, that is what Politics & Religion is for.

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Originally Posted by holzz

i've seen your posts. a whole range of simple stuff. so then you insistence i cannot post isn't logical. you do reckon you own this space and it's funny.

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I don't think he polices content more than anyone else. There are times when just about everyone on this side of the forum has noted something is off topic (including my post here) or personal or looks like abuse depending on what is posted. That is only natural and I haven't seen him tell you exactly what you should say. Disagreeing with someone's view is not trying to control what someone says but offering a different view. And yes, saying they think you're wrong about something. That was all he did.