Thoughts on Obama SO FAR?

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Originally Posted by thombergeron

You're quite confused here. In a democratic republic, like we have right here, the authority of the state derives from the consent of the governed. That's what's commonly referred to as "elections." A state's legitimacy is based, in part, on a monopoly of the use of violence, that is, it's ability to protect its citizens from both without and within.

All this stuff is written down. Try John Locke, Max Weber, etc.

It's not altogether surprising that a fearful little bigot interprets everything around him in the context of fear, but that's not actually how things work here. Law is based on the social compact, the desire of a polity to cooperate for the collective benefit of all. If you only obey the law because you're afraid of the government's guns, then you're a sociopath, and your earlier reference to "morals" is all the more confusing.

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Really? The GOVERNED voted for gay-marriage in California? Not that I'm for or against that but let's not kid ourselves into believing that the majority of Californians voted for gay marriage.

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Originally Posted by PomonaCA

Really? The GOVERNED voted for gay-marriage in California? Not that I'm for or against that but let's not kid ourselves into believing that the majority of Californians voted for gay marriage.

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Yeah... Well the 14th Amendment was ratified 142 years ago by at least 3/4 of the States. I'm pretty sure that takes precedent over a who can we hate this week referendum in California.

This is a constitutional republic. If anyone wants to live in a theocracy, they can move to Iran. If they would prefer there be no government at all, Somalia could use some more people to make up for the ones that are being murdered. Last I heard, anybody's free to leave the country (except those locked up for being too stupid to live with other people).

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Originally Posted by hippifried

Yeah... Well the 14th Amendment was ratified 142 years ago by at least 3/4 of the States. I'm pretty sure that takes precedent over a who can we hate this week referendum in California.

This is a constitutional republic. If anyone wants to live in a theocracy, they can move to Iran. If they would prefer there be no government at all, Somalia could use some more people to make up for the ones that are being murdered. Last I heard, anybody's free to leave the country (except those locked up for being too stupid to live with other people).

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The 14th amendment can never and will never stop hate. And all the "civil equality" with all the teeth you can legislate into it, will never stop hate because laws can never change a mans heart.

Short of changing hearts, you will never have meaningful civil equality. Only civil equality, technically.

Like you can't force hookers to see black clients, you can't force people to treat you like an equal. No matter what penalties you impose or what power you give to the politicians.

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Originally Posted by PomonaCA

The 14th amendment can never and will never stop hate. And all the "civil equality" with all the teeth you can legislate into it, will never stop hate because laws can never change a mans heart.

Short of changing hearts, you will never have meaningful civil equality. Only civil equality, technically.

Like you can't force hookers to see black clients, you can't force people to treat you like an equal. No matter what penalties you impose or what power you give to the politicians.

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What the hell are you talking about? I don't give a shit who you hate & neither does anyone else. Being an asshole's a personal problem, but not illegal. This isn't Europe. This is America, where even the klan/nazis get their rights respected. The laws (& the Constitution is the supreme law of the land) merely say that there can't be discrimination in hiring or business open to the public, & that government/s can't make discriminatory laws. "technically" is all the government can ever do. Nobody can fix stupid.

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Originally Posted by hippifried

What the hell are you talking about? I don't give a shit who you hate & neither does anyone else. Being an asshole's a personal problem, but not illegal. This isn't Europe. This is America, where even the klan/nazis get their rights respected. The laws (& the Constitution is the supreme law of the land) merely say that there can't be discrimination in hiring or business open to the public, & that government/s can't make discriminatory laws. "technically" is all the government can ever do. Nobody can fix stupid.

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And in the case of so called "civil equality", technically is all you'll get. And that pisses a lot of people off to the point of angry rebuttals lol

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Originally Posted by PomonaCA

And in the case of so called "civil equality", technically is all you'll get. And that pisses a lot of people off to the point of angry rebuttals lol

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Well that's a personal problem too.

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What the hell are you talking about? I don't give a shit who you hate & neither does anyone else. Being an asshole's a personal problem, but not illegal. This isn't Europe. This is America, where even the klan/nazis get their rights respected. The laws (& the Constitution is the supreme law of the land) merely say that there can't be discrimination in hiring or business open to the public, & that government/s can't make discriminatory laws. "technically" is all the government can ever do. Nobody can fix stupid.

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___hippiefried

Worth reposting. ;)

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Originally Posted by PomonaCA

Really? The GOVERNED voted for gay-marriage in California? Not that I'm for or against that but let's not kid ourselves into believing that the majority of Californians voted for gay marriage.

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The governed consented to live according to the principle of equal treatment before the law. Presuming you're a U.S. citizen living in Pomona (shocking), you continue to affirm your assent to this principle by retaining your citizenship and participating as a member of the U.S. polity.

Now, I know this is a complicated distinction, so pay close attention:
You are absolutely free to be a bigoted little closet case.
You are not free to use the mechanisms of the state to oppress other people.

Even if you get a bunch of your bigoted little buddies together and all run down to the polling place and vote en mass to disenfranchise faggots/brown people/women, the law is the final word.

Again, this stuff is really not that complicated, and it's all been written down. You just have to find the time to educate yourself. Good luck!

The guy is doing his job better than the former, so I'm cool with it.

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Originally Posted by Deja Vu

The guy is doing his job better than the former, so I'm cool with it.

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No criticism whatsoever? No criticism of: state secrets, targeted killings, indefinite detention, renditions, the opposition to extending the right of habeas corpus to prisoners at Bagram???
So, nothing.
So, we shouldn't critique state actors and state power. As Glenn Greewald has stated: WE'VE BEEN INCULCATED TO THINK THAT POLITICIANS ARE ABOVE THE LAW.
It is sooo true. We think and feel that politicians can do anything they feel like. It's amazing to me.