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Hippifried, I am not sure that is as much the vast majority of the public isn't hip to the NRA hypocrisy as it is that enough of Congress is afraid of the NRAs financial might and honestly believe that the public is not going to vote on guns either way in the next election. It is after all the money they fear, not the masses and the majority of the NRAs money does not come from grassroots but rather powerful industrialists.
Over the last days:
27 year old Wisconsin man shoots himself when his bullet ricochet of a tree. He’s expected to survive.
A robber in Nashville drops his gun shooting himself in the leg, putting the lie to the NRA adage about only good guys with guns can stop ....you know the rest.
In Ohio two women were handling a gun when it discharged injuring both of them.
Off duty policeman accidentally discharges his weapon while investigating a crime scene. Only the window of a brewery was injured.
In Oregon a 29 year old man was cleaning his handgun when it discharged. The bullet passed through the wall into the adjoining apartment. Guns are for your protection. Feeling safe yet?
NRA firearms instructor Eugene Kenny, from Connecticut, shoots his own ankle. He says he’s a stickler on safety. He didn’t know there was one in the chamber. :roll:
In Oregon a retired law enforcement officer (sheriff’s captain) shot his hand while cleaning his pistol.
Meanwhile, a man in Pennsylvania also shoots his hand when his firearm suddenly discharges.
Mental Illness is not the only mental issue that is relevant to the question, “Should I sell a firearm to this person?” Too many silly people are allowed to own deadly weapons. The only thing that can stop a silly person with a gun, is LOOK OUT! DUCK!!
http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/
If they couldn't deliver the votes, the politicians & press wouldn't pay them as much homage as they do. The NRA was a very well respected organization before the change of agenda, & still is, but they aren't what they used to be. I never hear them promote safety anymore. Over & over, it's just this constant paranoid rant about "the fast approaching gun ban" ad nauseum...
Things are so out of hand right now that one would think some social sanity is bound to prevail. Well... Hope springs eternal, but until we focus attention on this irrational fear of each other that drives this "debate" from all sides, we can't ever get a handle on guns without making the problem worse. This is a side show. "They" aren't "coming for your guns". The whole issue is a red herring from every angle. Divide & conquer in the age of democratic/republican governance. While we argue over the actions of a handful of crazies, the real issue of the power grab goes unnoticed. "Eye on the Prize!" The prize is control of your social security.
Exactly right. Once upon a time the NRA was very visibly promoting hunter safety and game conservation. You never hear the NRA complaining about diminishing wetlands anymore. Many of the older men in my family (including my father) were one time members. But that was at least a couple of decades ago. There has been a huge turn-over in NRA leadership and membership. It's been taken over by a cancer. But boy, can they sell guns like never before!Quote:
The NRA was a very well respected organization before the change of agenda, & still is, but they aren't what they used to be. I never hear them promote safety anymore. Over & over, it's just this constant paranoid rant about "the fast approaching gun ban" ad nauseum...
You betcha! First they dismantle the unions. Then steal your pensions. And finally social security. Where ever there's a big pool of money that hasn't been drained yet, that's where you'll find the fat cats and their political lackeys.Quote:
"They" aren't "coming for your guns". The whole issue is a red herring from every angle. Divide & conquer in the age of democratic/republican governance. While we argue over the actions of a handful of crazies, the real issue of the power grab goes unnoticed. "Eye on the Prize!" The prize is control of your social security.
That's pretty much everybody in a power position, right? While this circus, with all the shrieking & chest thumping goes on, I'm hard pressed to find anybody of import who isn't willing to take a meataxe to "entitlements" as an economic cure all.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
"They're" good at dividing the electorate. Those teachers over there are making too much money. They don't need those fat pensions. Those old folks on social security are wasting your tax money on hover chairs and luxury cruises. Those people on disability are all faking it. The magic hands of the market will fix everything if you just let them wander a little through your pockets. People are stupid and easily divided, always looking at the short term. The fat cats themselves only ever think about the short term. Draining this pool of money and that, rarely thinking about what they're going to do when all the pools have been drained and there's no one left to exploit. But hey, when all our entitlements are gone, we'll live by the gun, right? We'll be holding up grocery stores with our AK-47s for toilet paper.
Votes equal money. Everybody is afraid of being challenged in primaries and that becomes legitimate when you know that money from guys like the Koch Brothers and the NRA is going to stop following to you and to an opponent. That goes for Dems that the NRA has historically gone light on like Harry Reid.Quote:
Originally Posted by hippifried
I don't disagree that the continued assault on entitlements so we can protect the military-industrial complex, big finance, healthcare sector special interests and reduced taxation rates for the 0.05% of Americans, is a huge issue. But gun safety is a wedge issue until someone you know is victim of the loose regulatory structure in the US.
There's basically no way to fix anything without making some cuts to entitlements. This video explains it pretty well (and explains some other stuff too).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D319DsrxfUA
Point is, military and other discretionary spending is a fairly large portion of the budget, but it's nowhere near the size of entitlements. More importantly, discretionary spending isn't expected to double in size over the next 30 years. What this means is that something absolutely must be done with mandatory spending, and that something will probably involve cuts. Sorry. Making that assertion doesn't at all have anything to do with protecting the military-industrial complex. It's just the harsh reality.
The hyperactive youtube guy failed to mention social security pays for itself. Also failed to mention that not only do old people need a lot of medical care adding to the cost of Medicare and Medicaid but also the government is not allowed to negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies for the cost of medicines and that for profit hospitals are hiking up the costs of a visit by many orders of magnitude. Anti-government nincompoops are everywhere trying to dismantle government and its programs. Another example is the post office. It always paid for itself until Congress insisted it pay ahead on pensions by ten years.
But as far as this thread goes entitlements are a digression, unless the plan is to shoot the elderly with citizen owned semi-automatic weapons before we have to pay back the money we garnered from their pay checks for their retirement security.
Social Security doesn't pay for itself, so there's nothing to mention on that front. Old people do need healthcare, but that's going to need to be weighed against the expected increases in cost. It's ultimately going to come down to triage, and how best to get rich people to contribute more to the economy without toppling the whole thing.
The point of the digression is that the decision to make cuts to Medicare or Social Security has nothing at all to do with special interests, pensions, unions(my dad runs one and I've done plenty of work for them), or the military-industrial complex.
The only entitlements being discussed are Social Security & Medicare. They have their own revenue stream. For all the hand wringing, there's still no money coming out of the general fund to pay for it. The incessant whining is about what might happen years down the road if nothing is done to compensate for the retiring baby boomers. The first boomers started turning 65 last year. The boom lasted for 10 years. Up to 20 by some creative figuring. Regardless, it's still a temporary problem. Even if the case can be made that longer lifespans could extend the problem another 10 or 20 years beyond expectations, so what. This is easily solvable on the revenue side by bumping the employee & employer contributions just a couple of % points & raising the contribution cap. Hell, just get rid of the cap altogether. Why's it there anyway? Somebody shouldn't pay into the system because they make too much money?
Gun safety's an issue. There used to be this great organization that pressed the issue of firearm safety all the time. Their leadership got bought off. Most of the regulations that were in place before the NRA agenda change, that they're whining about now, were initiated by them. Now they just lobby for the industry & pander to the most extreme of the lunatic fringe. You know The nuts who want legal impunity to ignore the "No Weapons" sign on the front door & take their concealed gun into the bar, where they can start a fight over a drunken argument that private property is sacrosanct & how they should have a "right" to refuse service to anyone at their ball game hot dog stand franchise in the local public high school.Quote:
Originally Posted by fivekatz
It's not just guns. We've created a monster where freedom has somehow become synonymous with impunity. Politicians are scared of the nuts & won't call them out. The last Republican to do it was President George HW Bush. The NRA would love to take credit for his loss, but they had no effect on the '92 election at all. Forget their dumb ideas, those wimps need to be called out for the cowards they are. That's how you beat the prissy chest thumpers. But what to do about the media who do nothing but search for sound bites, & never question or follow up on them? They grant impunity to nuts, but nobody holds them culpable. I haven't really checked, but I'd be willing to bet that the birthers have gotten more air time than those who debunk them. The way to dial this down is for people, & especially the press, to realize & understand that there's no such thing as impunity in a free society. The nuts challenge everything. Why can't the rest of us? Stupid shouldn't be just left hanging out there as if it's legit.
I can't and don't disagree with these takes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hippifried
Whether the media is afraid of being called "liberal bias", married to the paradigm of presenting two sides to every discussion creating the illusion at times that there are two sane sides to an issue or it is the fact that mainstream media is now owned by huge corporations they are part of the problem.
The other issues is the nuts have huge financial megaphones, from the super elite/wealthy who find that these fringe issues have historically been helpful in national elections and instrumental in controlling the House in the recently gerrymandered districts.
It isn't that the rest of us can't mount a resistance but it will take a massive effort not to dismissed like the occupy movement was. That means the 60% of the 99% are going to have to get really pissed and then we may see the kind of unrest that caused change in the face of big money, special interest opposition in the 30's.
The 30's were a almost unimaginable collation of poor, bigoted southern whites, unions, intellectual elite and the middle class. The more the capitalist elite forward their agenda at the determent of the vast majority, the more they risk that type of backlash, no matter how much stronger the elite's hold is on mass media.
IMHO the long life span issue is a anomaly that the right is selling. Well to do folks with good health care live longer, but those most in need of social security as there sole retirement income do not live much longer still.
Social Security still self funds and both SS and Medicare would remain viable for many years simply by allowing no income limit on taxation (SS) and means testing for Medicare.
This society needs to protect its people from want and disease IMHO before it worries about controlling geo-politics by a super bloated defense budget and the super wealthy from paying their fair share. We are pretty far down the other end of the rabbit hole from the days when corporate taxes were hammered by the tax code IMHO.
The elite have spent 80 plus years trying to undo the New Deal in spite of the fact that it built the platform through infrastructure, education and income equity for the greatest period of American growth ever. The decline of empire began with Reagan and was finalized by Bush-Cheney but the vast majority of Americans don't get it yet, they think it was all caused by the current President who actually has softened the decline and desperately is trying to make the government work in spite of massive GOP obstruction that risks destroying not just the US bust Western economies. And it is the wedge issues and media that allow that not to come into clear focus yet.
And if the history of the world is any indicator, regardless of the new dimensions the 21st Century brings to information and thought, the longer it takes to come into focus the more dire the consequences will be for all but most glaring will be the backlash against the elite.
Just my take
Last year about 1.2 million abortions took place, so, I figure let the rednecks have their guns, We Libs are still waaaay ahead.....:(:(:(
I'm only half kidding on this one. There's plenty of blame to go around, plenty of pain.
The good Lord in all his omniscience doesn't ensoul fertilized eggs that He already knows will be aborted. Every right thinking person of faith knows that.
An interesting turn to compare sensible gun safety laws with abortion, aside from the fact that they are both wedge issues and the anti-choice folks never go away but the majority of gun safety folks drift in and out of the issues urgency based on mass murders rather than the fact that every day masses of people are injured or murdered by fire arms.
Oh, and the same states in the US that are extreme in their defense of that fetus, don't want society to help with the child's education, nutrition or health care and want every citizen to have a gun if they choose no matter how many born humans die each year.
Quite a country the US is at moments.
I guess my point is it's more than about saving lives, and if it were really just about sensible gun laws, we could have agreed on that 41 pages ago, or 41 years ago. Behind every suicide and murder and abortion there's a Human Being. Maybe they can eliminate the genes that cause pain or unfairness from the DNA code, or make people take an exam before they're allowed to have children, but until then, buckle up, bitches, because somebody is most definitely screwing you over right now. It's hard not to take it personal. Ye best steer clear of God's wrath too. He is TOTALLY unreasonable. Ever since that "EVE" incident.....
I can't help but think that the craziness we see ratcheted up today is a product of all the fear mongering we're bombarded with. Not just today really. There's always something or somebody we're supposed to be scared of. It's drugs, guns, bombs, certain technologies, diseases, bugs, rodents, reptiles, pit bulls, etc... It's all those blacks, whites, reds, browns, yellows, foreigners, giants, midgets, Jews, Hindus, Catholics, Protestants of all bents, Muslims, Mormons, Pagans, theists, atheists, gnostics, agnostics, monarchists, egalitarians, libertarians, authoritarians, vegetarians, carnivores, omnivores, children, adults, teenagers, retirees, heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, fats, thins, warriors, pacifists, every kind of economic or philosophical ist or ism you can possibly dream up, & all them smart alecs who say we come descended from monkeys!
Kinda makes ya wanna crawl under a rock & hide, don't it? What I'm really afraid of is that I might not be able to find the time or inclination to be as scared as I'm supposed to be. Wouldn't want to turn into or be accused of being one of those spooky non-conformists.
Interesting points about the culture and how it has seemed to amplify fear.
Keep the masses in debt and in fear of each other, other countries, other genders, races, sexual orientations and get them mad as hell at those issues rather than an assault on their income equity position in society and you have a winning hand.
The conservative revolution of the 1980's had been grand,give it a few more years and the plutocrats might be able to repeal child labor laws.
April 5:
Missouri man shot in the shoulder while game playing with a gun.
Gun discharges in Florida while two supposedly grown men were “playing” with it. One of them is now recovering from the resulting shoulder wound. They thought is wasn’t loaded. :roll:
Kansas Man shoots himself in the leg attempting to take apart his gun in a Perry Lake State Park. He had been drinking.
Michigan woman accidentally shot in the leg by boyfriend who was “demonstrating something” with his gun. Probably diverting attention from the size of his penis.
http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/
Gutless obstruction Leader Mitch McConnell announce he will join those not allowing an simply up or down vote:
WASHINGTON -- While President Barack Obama was delivering an emotional plea on Monday about gun control legislation, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) announced that he will be among those filibustering the gun package that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) is trying to bring up.
"Sen. McConnell opposes the Reid bill," McConnell spokesman Don Stewart said in a statement. "While nobody knows yet what Sen. Reid’s plan is for the gun bill, if he chooses to file cloture on the motion to proceed to the Reid bill, Sen. McConnell will oppose cloture on proceeding to that bill."
McConnell is the fifteenth Republican to join the filibuster effort being led by Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.). The GOP leader could have opted to stay out of it, letting the votes happen on the gun package and putting the pressure on House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) to decide the bill's fate, if it even made it out of the Senate. Instead, McConnell is making a calculated decision to be part of the filibuster effort that could derail the entire push for gun control legislation.
News of McConnell's plan came at the exact moment that Obama was giving a speech in Hartford, Conn. -- to a crowd that included families of victims from the Newtown shootings -- about the need for Congress to hold votes on the gun proposals, regardless of whether lawmakers planned to vote for them. Obama, whose voice cracked at moments during the speech, used some of his toughest language yet in pressing lawmakers to act.
"What's more important? Our children or an 'A' grade from the gun lobby?" the president asked of Congress.
Reid is trying to bring up the gun bill this week, though it is hanging by a few political threads. There have been some small developments in favor of the package, however, including Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) emerging as a prospective cosponsor for the background checks piece of the bill. The details of that proposal are still being finalized.
The fact that Reid the let the chance to require actual talking filibuster to return as normal procedure rather a simple call to cloture vote may be the most failed moment of leadership in the history of Senate Majority leadership by any US politician.
F'ing shocking that Reid let this happen after the 11-12 session and its historic abuse of procedural cloture.
At the beginning of the new session Reid had the opportunity to put the old rules on filibuster back into place. I was shocked when he didn't. WTF was he thinking? Oh, let me guess, "When we're in the minority we might want to obstruct legislation too." Fucking morons every single one of them.
I do think that was a huge part of the calculation, in addition to the possible concern that the Dems would lose the war of words regarding the procedure changes because so many Americans do not get what is happening with procedure in the Senate and the obstruction it has created.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Both reasons IMO demonstrate what a weak leader Harry Reid is and why the world would have been better of if Nancy Pelosi had been the Senate Dem leader instead of the House. Nancy has twice the brains and three times the balls IMHO. And that is why neo-con media demonizes her and just makes funny of wimpy ole Harry.
Gun ban AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!
If you want it banned so bad then do it the correct way like they did with alcohol... AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.
Anti-2A is anti civil rights. How's it feel to stand with racists like Klan on civil rights??? lel
Regulation of guns does not require an amendment to the Constitution. The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was never thought to be unconstitutional, it merely expired. Therefore owning semi-automatics is neither a constitutional right nor a civil right.
You know what I find interesting?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
The fact that the "RTKBA" is centered around firearms. The constitution never mentions firearms. Arms encompass myriad forms and designs. If you think gun law is crazy american knife laws are even more arcane.
BTW, they almost got their (de-facto) ban 1934 but it only ended up covering Machinegun, silencer, short-barrel rifle/shotgun, and "all other weapon". At the last minute "Joe Six-pack" had his right saved. They instituted a $200 "stamp tax" that ensured only the very rich could afford a weapon.(I believe in todays dollar it would be roughly $5,000 for the stamp on EVERY weapon). Due to inflation it is now somewhat affordable. People like me who collect restricted weapons are sometimes referred to as "stamp collectors".
I see your point. I do enjoy getting other peoples well-thought out opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Your logic, however, is flawed. lrn2philosphy :geek:
Federal Law bans the interstate commerce of switchblades, and box-cutters aren’t allowed on commercial passenger planes. An Illinoian carrying a blade larger than three inches is regarded as armed. Some states have banned the carry of “butterfly” knives.
Every parent knows that knives are hazardous even when not handled with ill-intent. When handled maliciously they are dangerous. That’s why there are laws regulating them and banning some varieties of them. The Supreme Court does not regard these laws as an infringement on the Second Amendment nor a obstruction of a Civil Right.
The same week as Sandy Hook a man armed with a knife attack a primary school in China injuring twenty two children. The difference between this incident and Sandy Hook: The knifeman hadn’t managed to kill single child.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/...a-knife-attack
If we can legally ban and regulate the varieties of knives, we can do the same with firearms, grenade launchers and any other sort of “arm.”
The issue is now that the 2nd has been "incorporated" to the states. If it had went the other way they could have left it up to the states so that in Ga I could have select-fire automatics and in New York maybe just a Muzzle-Loading musket. As long as you don't cross state lines into a restricted state you'd be fine. I think Wyoming was talking something along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I have to admit that I'm not as well versed in law as I'd like to be so I'm not sure how I feel about the whole incorporation thing.
On a side-note, Military, Law-enforcement and no joke one-armed (or one functional arm) citizens are permitted to ship auto-knives across state lines.
Since April 5:
Sixteen year old Ohio boy suffers from a chest wound after attempting to clean his gun. That his story and he’s sticking to it.
Tennessee four year old son of Wilson County sheiff’s deputy finds a gun at a family picnic, then shoots and kills his mother.
While cleaning his gun Texas policeman shoots and kills his four year old daughter.
West Virginia woman shots her finger off.
Seventeen year old North Carolina boy shoots himself in the leg.
In Tennessee a two year finds his mother’s gun and shoots her in the stomach. She’s in serious but stable condition.
New Jersey four year old shoots a six year old dead...in the head.
Maryland man drops gun. It discharges and wounds him.
Tennesee man attempts to clean his gun and accidentally kills himself.
http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/
We're asked to trust these people. Gun owners are safety conscious. Allowing people to walk around carrying concealed weapons is supposed to make us all safer, reduce our risk of harm. Guns don't kill people...unless you drop them, clean them or leave them on the stove.:roll:
It continues:
Private security guard accidentally shoots a student in Kansas. So much the good-guys-with-a-gun theory.
Indiana man shoots himself twice while “decocking” his 9mm. He forgot it had one in the chamber. Girl friend said he just bought the gun and was “messing around with it.”
Tennessee man shoots himself while cleaning his .22 rifle on his from porch. Of course the gun in his household was no risk to the neighbors, right?
Two guys were admiring a gun in Florida. It discharged. One guy’s left, the other one’s dead.
In South Caroline a three year old child finds a gun and kills himself.
In Geogia a man accidentally discharged his Smith & Wesson (he was just “checking” it) and sent a bullet through his hand and leg. He’s no danger to those who live around him though.
Twenty three year old kid shoots a friend while “messing” with a revolver. It’s okay though, only the people in his proximity in Dover, Delaware were ever in danger.
Oh wait, Dover’s a bit more dangerous than that: Mr. Peace of Dover accidentally shot a friend (the bullet entering his calf and breaking his tibia) while “messing” around with his Smith and Wesson .357.
http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/
You're having way too much fun reporting on the stupid, Trish.
It's educational. The lesson is obviously that more guns don't make us safer. It also has an entertaining three-stooges character to it. It would be amusing if it weren't horribly marred by the involvement of so many children and innocent by-standers. That (imo) underscores the seriousness of the issue.
If someone could tell a story about a gun owner playing hero and blasting his way out of a sticky situation it would resonate (counter-intuitively as a gun control argument) just because of how rare it is.
Like someone pulls into a gas station and attempts to rob it at gunpoint, unfortunately for them a hungangels member is there, pulls out a .45, aims it around a mother and her two children in the candy aisle and blows the robber's brains out, splattering blood and skull fragments all over the bewildered cashier. Then we can discuss how that act can help us create the society we really want to live in. A few stories like this for every 50 children and adults blowing their brains out by accident would convince me...of the stupidity of gun lobbyists.
It's not like the Senate is going to call you up and ask your opinion, If you want shit done you have to do it before the election and get these guys out of office who have arteries like 80 year old copper pipe. I would wager every person in Congress knows these laws are bullshit, but the politicians are businessmen first, protectors of children second.
Having a gun does not make one "armed" any more than owning a piano makes one a pianist.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I am as pro-2nd as one gets and even I shudder at how many folks lack respect and fear for tools whose functions are break things and kill people.
Natural selection in all its functional glory is allowed to work its magic in this segment of the population.
I learned weapons handling in the USMC. Even cops scare me with their lack of discipline. When people ask me what kind of gun they should buy I generally steer them towards CS spray if I don't think they are going to commit to training with their weapon until it is muscle memory.
More ppl have been killed or maimed by "unloaded" guns than any other tool out there, lel.
In this case it was selection against an innocent by-stander;not the pro handling the gun.Quote:
Natural selection in all its functional glory is allowed to work its magic in this segment of the population.
Exactly, guns DO kill people.Quote:
More pl have been killed ... by guns...
And all too often it's an innocent party - a young child or a relation - who suffers or dies. That isn't natural selection. It's as unnatural, violent and cruel as it gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Well yeah... But if stupid people keep shooting themselves, doesn't that tend to slow, albeit minimally, the deterioration of the overall gene pool? Although I will admit that it'd be better if they stopped shooting themselves in the leg & aimed just a little higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish