Occupy Wall Street protest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

I have to diagree. Our public officials from the president down through both houses to your alderman are elected. If someone remains in office it's the will of the electorate. Of course you can complain that the electorate is stupid or being lied to; but that's another matter. The point is that diminishing the power of our elected officials to tax and regulate only attenuates our power and amplifies that of the large coporatations which wish neither be taxed nor regulated.

---

I'm exactly with you Trish. And sadly it's the very people who campaign against big government, and it's largely a phenomenon in the US rather than here, where there's a small but vociferous and occasionally influential faction on the loony right edge of the conservative party, who, if they succeed in their aims, will see corporations rush into any vacuum that's created and turn services that were previously provided as a public good into fuck you for profit schemes. By which time, of course, it will all be too late.

Here in the UK the NHS is currently under threat in a way that it hasn't been since its foundation in 1948, from a government which seems intent on giving the market full sway in a system whose guiding principle has always been to provide treatment free of charge at the point of demand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

I have to diagree. Our public officials from the president down through both houses to your alderman are elected. If someone remains in office it's the will of the electorate. Of course you can complain that the electorate is stupid or being lied to; but that's another matter. The point is that diminishing the power of our elected officials to tax and regulate only attenuates our power and amplifies that of the large coporatations which wish neither be taxed nor regulated.

---

Money talks, the voters walk. We're going to have to agree to disagree I guess.

~BB~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Money talks, the voters walk. We're going to have to agree to disagree I guess.

~BB~

---

Isn't the issue here that while government may be incompetent, inefficient and sometimes even venal, the alternative of in effect handing over to government by big corporations is infinitely worse?

Well we can agree to disagree, but I do have to say that, "Money talks, the voters walk" is not much of an argument. If you take away the power to tax and regulate, then the monied will have an even greater voice and the walkers will be crippled. To reverse the trend the course is plain and simple.

The real trouble with your Venn diagram, however, is the intersection. The tea baggers are not against big corporations. Look at the tea bagger candidates. Cain is not against the corporations. Rick Perry owes the financial success of his state to big oil, and he never speaks a word against them. The tea baggers are against taxing capital gains, they're against environmental protections, they're against everything big business is against.

Small businesses, want to see middle class gains to increase the demand for products. Large corporations are making record profits, they have already structurally acclimated to the diminished work force and aren't about to hire or create new jobs. But who are the tea baggers siding against? The middle class. The main tea bagger complaint is that the lower and middle classes aren't paying enough taxes and that the so called "job creators" need a continuance of the bush tax break in spite of the fact that it never ever produced jobs.

No, there are scarce few tea baggers who say anything against large corporations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Well we can agree to disagree, but I do have to say that, "Money talks, the voters walk" is not much of an argument. If you take away the power to tax and regulate the monied will have an even greater voice and the walkers will be crippled. To reverse the trend the course is plain and simple.

---

I'm not that kind of Libertarian. I believe in taxing the rich. I also believe in restructuring the tax code into a 'flat tax' or 'fair tax' and abolishing the IRS (and the Fed) in order to do so and as a means to reduce the burden on the middle class. But the most important fiscal policy I believe in, as I've said before, is a commodity-based monetary standard. Fiat currency, the silent tax, is imposed by the super rich (i.e. The Fed), upon every citizen, but it hurts those at the bottom of the economic ladder the most. This debate isn't as simple as just a discussion on tax policy. There are many more aspects to this problem.

I'm not a laissez-faire type; I do believe in minimal regulation, and as I've said many time before in this thread, I strongly disagree with the notion of corporate personhood. Also, I think foreign companies should pay more in taxes for the right to access our economy and our domestic companies should pay more, too, but probably not as much as OWS protesters would like. I mean, look, we got into this crisis because of market manipulation, not because corporate taxes are too low. What really should have happened was prosecutions against those involved and heavy fines levied against the financial industry, not as a penalty for existence (i.e. taxes), but for their wrongdoings (i.e. fines).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

The real trouble with your Venn diagram, however, is the intersection. The tea baggers are not against big corporations. Look the the tea bagger candidates. Cain is not against the corporations. Rick Perry owes the financial success of his state to big oil, and he never speaks a word against them. The tea baggers are against taxing capital gains, they're against environmental protections, they're against everything big business is against.

---

Well, the intersection is the perception of the diagram designer, who is not I, but I also don't see how the diagram argues your point about the Tea Party, which is at one of its ends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Small businesses, want to see middle class gains to increase the demand for products. Large corporations are making record profits, they have already structurally acclimated to the diminished work force and aren't about to hire or create new jobs. Who are the tea baggers siding against? The middle class. The main tea bagger complaint is that the lower and middle classes are paying enough taxes and that the so called "job creators" need a continuance of the bush tax break in spite of the fact that it never ever produced jobs. No, there are scare few tea baggers who say anything against large corporations.

---

I think the tax cuts should be based on hiring incentives. If you add that slight condition to the Tea Party position, then that position gains a lot more standing. Hopefully it willl see that as it continues forward, particularly as it watches what it probably considers an opposition movement in OWS.

It's all about happy mediums.

~BB~

We disagree on the fairness of a flat tax. The cost of the necessities for life (food, water, shelter etc.) do not rise in proportion to one’s income. Hence the difference between income and the real cost of living increases as one goes up the income ladder. That is why a flat tax is inherently unfair. A ten percent tax on a secretary bringing in $15000.00 a year is much more onerous than a ten percent tax on someone bringing in $1000000.00 a year. As the years go by not only does the economic disparity increase but the disparity in power (as you say, “Money talks”). I see the only advantage of a flat tax is it makes loops holes more difficult to create and navigate, but at the expense of exacerbating the problem it is meant to solve: disparity in political power.

I’m not sure how tax breaks based on hiring incentives would work, especially if you’re for a flat tax. Business have a finite employee capacity which when saturated cannot be profitably inflated. So the growing businesses which can hire because they are not yet operating at capacity get the tax break, but the mature business which are operating at capacity don’t. It’s a fix, but it’s a fix that creates just the sort of loophole a flat tax is supposed to avoid.

Addendum: Sorry about the typo in the previous post: The teabagger complaint is that the middle class is NOT paying enough taxes. They are actually for increasing the tax burden on the middle class while continuing to give profiteers a break.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

We disagree on the fairness of a flat tax. The cost of the necessities for life (food, water, shelter etc.) do not rise in proportion to one’s income. Hence the difference between income and the real cost of living increases as one goes up the income ladder. That is why a flat tax is inherently unfair. A ten percent tax on a secretary bringing in $15000.00 a year is much more onerous than a ten percent tax on someone bringing in $1000000.00 a year. As the years go by not only does the economic disparity increase but the disparity in power (as you say, “Money talks”). I see the only advantage of a flat tax is it makes loops holes more difficult to create and navigate, but at the expense of exacerbating the problem it is meant to solve: disparity in political power.

I’m not sure how tax breaks based on hiring incentives would work, especially if you’re for a flat tax. Business have a finite employee capacity which when saturated cannot be profitably inflated. So the growing businesses which can hire because they are not yet operating at capacity get the tax break, but the mature business which are operating at capacity don’t. It’s a fix, but it’s a fix that creates just the sort of loophole a flat tax is supposed to avoid.

Addendum: Sorry about the typo in the previous post: The teabagger complaint is that the middle class is NOT paying enough taxes. They are actually for increasing the tax burden on the middle class while continuing to give profiteers a break.

---

Good points about the flat tax. I'd make two caveats then: a high threshold for the tax, much more than your example of $15,000/year, and a separate tax system for corporations, used to encourage beneficial behavior and penalize the negative. Again, the most important move that can be made here is that we should actually start treating corporations like corporations.

~BB~

One of the things I've been noticing on the news lately is GOP and their bosses beginning to talk about the "free market" again which is amusing because back in 2008 no one on that side of politics mentioned anything about that. I'm no economic guru, I had a class on economics in college where I saw a movie that stated that Hong Kong was an excellent example of the free market in practice. I can't remember much of the movie except that the residential area began on boats in the harbor and headed up the hillside. Given the fact that I'm retired on disability, something tells me that in the free market economy I'd be living on a boat right now.:geek:

Add this to the list: WSJ accused of unorthodox boost to circulation

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44879240...1#.TpYdFnOlCPB

there is now talk of this neo hippie rent a crowd protesting out side of our stock exchange in Sydney.i would love to see these wankers try to piss off the hells angels or rebels they piss off the general public

Who is renting the crowd? Can you prove they're bought? How are they being paid? Do you know at all what you're talking about? Prove it.

As someone who has been politically active who has volunteered for our local LGBT health clinic, as well as been at Tea Party rallies there is only one thing I can say to OWS.

We told you so.

We opposed the bailouts and said let the banks fail.

You said, we can't let the banks fail we need stimulus and TARP.

Well the banks got bailed out, then everyone got sold out, and we wonder who's to blame.

BOTH THE RHINO BUSH AND THE CONSERVADEM OBAMA ARE IN THE POCKETS OF THEIR MONEY'D MASTERS. AS LONG AS BIG MEDIA, BIG CORPS, BIG UNIONS, ETC...CAN CONTROL WHAT WE SEE AND HEAR THIS WILL BE THE CASE.

The only honest politicians I know are ironically here in the state of Illinois, our Democratic governor Pat Quinn, and our Republican Senator Mark Kirk (Who unlike our democrat senator Durbin helped me with getting a correctly marked passport inspite of an obstinate bureaucrat).

The bottom line is... sit back and enjoy the show. At the core most of it is media managed, media imagined BS. Most people I know are either working, or looking for work. While the majority of OWS protesters are white yuppie spawn who have no money issues themselves. (The tea party had as it's core also people who had the money and time to devote themselves to activism. Some of them are even the same exact people. )

More people join threads when they are in General Discussion than in Politics & Religion, perhaps they are intimidated by the title. The problem is that the quality of argument is desperately poor. We all live in capitalist societies, yet few seem to understand how what is all around us works; there is an obsession with taxes, and particularly corporations when small to medium-sized firms are everywhere and all around us and are just as much a part of the economy, and even then what people say about corporations is incoherent, bizarre, resentful -as someone at least acknowledged- and unhelpful. Western Europe and North America no longer dominate global capitalist production, are unlikely to do so for decades to come, and we have to adjust, just as we have to adjust to a global decline in oil and cycles of extreme weather. While I understand the frustrations of OWS and even the Tea Party, its not my scene, its noise, and in any case, OWS also stands for One Way Street, protests going nowhere. But then I don't expect to read any stimulating solutions to our problems in this thread anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stavros

there is an obsession with taxes, and particularly corporations when small to medium-sized firms are everywhere and all around us and are just as much a part of the economy, and even then what people say about corporations is incoherent, bizarre, resentful -as someone at least acknowledged- and unhelpful.

---

How do most of us know about OWS, Who told us? The mainstream broadcast, TV radio or internet media. Who owns that? Corporations. Why would the corporate media ever report on small enterprise as if it were a real viable part of the economy.

Instead of begging big corps for a job, allot of people I know are hiring themselves (not always legally). I almost have more respect for a drug pusher hustling for his bread than for some of the glorified beggars that are these protestors. ("Oh what will we do when we graduate from our college")

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trish

Who is renting the crowd? Can you prove they're bought? How are they being paid? Do you know at all what you're talking about? Prove it.

---

paid by the communist party and al Queda and woodstock neo hippie theatre

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by russtafa

paid by the communist party and al Queda and woodstock neo hippie theatre

---

Do the Al Qaeda and Hezbollah guys in the crowd get along or are they catty about their Sunni and Shiite differences?

no once to sunny and the other's to shitt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

Do they Al Qaeda and Hezbollah guys in the crowd get along or are they catty about their Sunni and Shiite differences?

---

lol, good one dino

do you reckon these young protesting blokes ever belonged to any gangs or bad outfits Dino?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by russtafa

there is now talk of this neo hippie rent a crowd protesting out side of our stock exchange in Sydney.i would love to see these wankers try to piss off the hells angels or rebels they piss off the general public

---

Perhaps in Australia, but not over here. For the most part they are the general public and they are already pissed off. That is why this movement is spreading around the country.

Stavros, you're correct in your assumption that no real solutions will be offered on here. These demonstrations are a peaceful(so far) release of pent up frustration with the way our country is changing. Since this change has been taking place over the last twenty years, reversing it will take at least that long, if reversal is possible at all.:geek:

our rent a crowd look like they have not seen a shower for months but seen a lot of drugs and dole payments

It's going to be interesting Friday the 15th...

Some of the comments posted here about the protesters remind me of the remarks by the late (and unlamented) VP to Tricky Dicky, Spiro T Agnew who called the four young and unarmed anti vietnam war protesters shot dead by the National Guard at Kent State in Ohio "Campus bums". This was before Agnew was caught with his hand in the till - alongside the bigger crimes of his boss.

[QUOTE=BrendaQG;1023184]As someone who has been politically active who has volunteered for our local LGBT health clinic, as well as been at Tea Party rallies there is only one thing I can say to OWS.
QUOTE] your trans and your a tea party member?seriously?most of the world sees a tea partier as a racist southern baptist nutjob who totally fucked up congress so bad that nothing got done.let me make it crystal clear for you tea party fuck ups its your fault your still in a reccession not obamas,obama has been pushing his infrastrusure bill since god knows when and cant get it through the tea party morons meanwhile thousands of people are out of works,you have a bill sitting ready to be passed to finish a pipeline from canada to the u.s. that will create 1000s of jobs not to mention cheaper oil but no the tea party fuck ups just sit on there asses till the next election and then there gone,you see the tea party is nothing but a glorified bunch of protesters trying to make a point,well they made there point now get them out of there and elect a majority of democrats and get things moving.

[quote=lisaparadise;1023328]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BrendaQG

As someone who has been politically active who has volunteered for our local LGBT health clinic, as well as been at Tea Party rallies there is only one thing I can say to OWS.
QUOTE] your trans and your a tea party member?seriously?most of the world sees a tea partier as a racist southern baptist nutjob who totally fucked up congress so bad that nothing got done.let me make it crystal clear for you tea party fuck ups its your fault your still in a reccession not obamas,obama has been pushing his infrastrusure bill since god knows when and cant get it through the tea party morons meanwhile thousands of people are out of works,you have a bill sitting ready to be passed to finish a pipeline from canada to the u.s. that will create 1000s of jobs not to mention cheaper oil but no the tea party fuck ups just sit on there asses till the next election and then there gone,you see the tea party is nothing but a glorified bunch of protesters trying to make a point,well they made there point now get them out of there and elect a majority of democrats and get things moving.

---

Brenda is the most unique person on here.

http://www.intersexualite.org/Hontas....html#anchor_8

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prospero

Some of the comments posted here about the protesters remind me of the remarks by the late (and unlamented) VP to Tricky Dicky, Spiro T Agnew who called the four young and unarmed anti vietnam war protesters shot dead by the National Guard at Kent State in Ohio "Campus bums". This was before Agnew was caught with his hand in the till - alongside the bigger crimes of his boss.

---

Ahh, yes, good old Spiro. Remember him well. Ancient history for others on here.

I'm getting a real kick out of the use of the term "hippie" by some on here as well. A quick search on the word would lead to the realization that OWS protestors are not hippies at all. :geek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigDF

Ahh, yes, good old Spiro. Remember him well. Ancient history for others on here.

I'm getting a real kick out of the use of the term "hippie" by some on here as well. A quick search on the word would lead to the realization that OWS protestors are not hippies at all. :geek:

---

in Australia they are the rent a crowd/afraid of soap and water people.they do piss people off with their bullshit antics and they are always at these kind of protests because they don't work for a living and don't want to

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by russtafa

in Australia they are the rent a crowd/afraid of soap and water people.they do piss people off with their bullshit antics and they are always at these kind of protests because they don't work for a living and don't want to

---

You got folks like this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

You got folks like this?

---

ha ha ha haa!!! Looks like my high school graduating class.

What, Dino, are you on your lunch break? I posted a few things for you.....

Do you realizing that the big crisis that is coming is going to change completely the social status in Europe, USA and everywhere?

the "end of history" ended very quickly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Domino

ha ha ha haa!!! Looks like my high school graduating class.

What, Dino, are you on your lunch break? I posted a few things for you.....

---

I'm always out to lunch, Bobby. I'm own income property. Unless a pipe bursts, the roof falls in, or someone tries not to pay things are pretty good and I make my own hours. I'm basically Ralph Furley but more of a pervert.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopo...donknotts2.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GC6hRdzZCc...0/egads%21.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

You got folks like this?

---

hey Dino is the bloke at the top "HUNGANGELS" own Hippie.Yeah mate we have a few that look like that or worse and there's three things they hate ,soap and water and work

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

I'm always out to lunch, Bobby. I'm own income property. Unless a pipe bursts, the roof falls in, or someone tries not to pay things are pretty good and I make my own hours. I'm basically Ralph Furley but more of a pervert.

---

"Out to lunch" - I miss that expression. *wiping the crumbs off my face*

I'm sure your properties are very safe, with all the "surveillance" being done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Domino

"Out to lunch" - I miss that expression. *wiping the crumbs off my face*

I'm sure your properties are very safe, with all the "surveillance" being done.

---

I always know what color panties my female tenants are wearing and when they have their "period underwear" on as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

I always know what color panties my female tenants are wearing and when they have their "period underwear" on as well.

---

LOL!!! They don't have to pay extra for that service, hey? It's just part of the job. Speaking of Mr. Furley, how about a "Three's Company" - which is the greatest sit-com of all-time - where Chrissy was hiding a cock?
That would have extended the show a couple of seasons.... What was Jack's friend's name again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Domino

LOL!!! They don't have to pay extra for that service, hey? Speaking of Mr. Furley, how about a "Three's Company" - which is the greatest sit-com of all-time - where Chrissy was hiding a cock?
That would have extended the show a couple of seasons.... What was Jack's friend's name again?

---

Jack's friend was Larry, right? Didn't the Regal Beagal have a Tuesday T-Girl Night hosted by Sulka back then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

Jack's friend was Larry, right? Didn't the Regal Beagal have a Tuesday T-Girl Night hosted by Sulka back then?

---

In my scenario, Larry would be the sly fox who knew her secret and took advantage of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Domino

In my scenario, Larry would be the sly fox who knew her secret and took advantage of it.

---

Larry would accidentally kill her and the cover-up is where the comedy begins. Suzanne Somers had to be written off some way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dino Velvet

Larry would accidentally kill her and the cover-up is where the comedy begins. Suzanne Somers had to be written off some way.

---

Then Janet would feel lonely and leave Jack clues throughout the apt.
Jack: "Hey Janet, what are panties, a wig & lipstick doing in the oven?"
Janet: "I don't know Jack, but why don't you try them on..."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby Domino

Then Janet would feel lonely and leave Jack clues throughout the apt.
Jack: "Hey Janet, what are panties, a wig & lipstick doing in the oven?"
Janet: "I don't know Jack, but why don't you try them on..."

---

Janet should have been more of a psycho on the show like Joyce DeWitt in real life. I'd have made her crazier than Margot Kidder.

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/07/06/0...ug_exm_2-1.jpg