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I believe we're talking about an American election.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
It is not possible to remove your doubt. I have my own kind of doubt. Give me a name of a Democratic savior who can defeat Trump. The sacred polls have not revealed one.
I refer you to my previous answer. It doesn't have to be the messiah, just someone with fewer downsides and more upside than the current guy. Being able to complete sentences seems like a basic requirement for a candidate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
If Biden is your messiah, perhaps you might explain to us non-believers how you think he can rise from the dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
You can't provide a name of a viable candidate. No one has. The Democrats have had 4 years to come up with an alternative, they have had polls telling them voters think Biden is too old, and they have had polls telling them voters don't want a Biden/Trump rematch. They have not produced a viable alternative.
I know you like imagining that there's a better candidate out there, but you can't name one.
Biden isn't my vision of a messiah, but he did save us from Trump in 2020, and he has actually been the best president of my lifetime, although no one wants to give him credit. And he has put himself out there as a candidate. Now he doesn't even get credit for that.
Twenty Democratic Representatives have called for President Joe Biden to step aside,however none of them have up come up a viable candidate to replace him at the top of the ticket. Over a year ago President Joe Biden announced his campaign for reelection,and if the Democratic Representatives didn't think that he wasn't up too the task of serving and completing a second term?,they should have expressed their concerns and chosen another candidate,one they thought had a better chance of defeating Donald Trump over a year ago. And with the election only three and a half months away,it is too late to replace him and nominate another candidate. The Democratic National Convention is over a month away,where President Joe Biden will more than likely win the nomination. And all this bickering and nitpicking within the Democratic Party isn't helping them,it's doing the opposite.
Here's what Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders had to say: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...ing-rcna161714
This will complicate matters:
https://apnews.com/live/election-bid...tes-07-13-2024
(Link title is misleading. At current time, it provides live updates regarding someone apparently shooting at Trump at a rally in Pennsylvania.)
Yeah it definitely will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
And you can't explain how Biden can turn things around, or how he's going to be able to do the job for another 4 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
It's weird that you are blaming this situation on everyone but the man primarily responsible. Biden announced he was running again in April 2023, preempting any viable alternative. Nobody wanted to run because no sitting president has failed to get the nomination if they wanted it, and if they had run they would have been panned by people like you for undermining the president. There was no process for finding the best candidate - it came down to one man's decision.
If Biden had recognised the realities of his age and condition last year he could have ended his career with dignity and the party would have had an orderly process to determine the best successor. Now those things are almost impossible.
You are also exaggerating Biden's electoral appeal. He won the Electoral College quite narrowly last time, despite getting huge help from the pandemic. No pandemic and Trump would almost certainly have won. Biden has much bigger negatives now.
He can't turn it around. Nothing will satisfy the naysayers, as you well demonstrate, even though you can't vote in the election. He may be able to do the job for another 4 years, or he may not. That's why there's a well-established succession plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
Joe Biden is the acted, electing president. He followed the rules and went through the primary process. There was one challenger who made no impact and whose name I've already forgotten. How is it Joe Biden's fault that his party has neither truly opposed him or truly supported him?
I am not exaggerating Biden's electoral appeal--I am saying that I have seen no alternative who does better. But he won the electoral college and had a large margin in popular vote. Any Democrat will have difficulty with the electoral college.
They were supporting him until two weeks ago - maybe too uncritically. You seem to be in some parallel universe where you can't see any problem with a declining 81 year old running for President.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
Anyway, there's no point in further discussion as we're just going round in circles. The Trump shooting is going to shift attention away from this for a while. Things were ugly enough already; now it's likely to get even worse.
:iagree:
Did you ever stop to think that the reason why they didn't express their concerns a year ago was because they were unaware of how much he has declined mentally. Or maybe he was fine last year, but since then has started a gradual decline and what we saw during the debate was the first public evidence of that decline.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0
There is an article by NY Mag, entitled "The Conspiracy of Silence to Protect Joe Biden". Its behind a paywall, so I haven't read it and I won't post the link. So there could be a reason why these Democratic Representatives were unaware of Biden's condition.
But there could be a less nefarious reason too. When you take into consideration how many members of Congress actually get to meet with the President on a daily basis, maybe all or some of those 20 representatives didn't have the opportunity to see first hand what Biden's mental condition was like.
Yes i have thought about. And since that terrible performance in the debate over two weeks ago,President Joe Biden has been campaigning in multiple states to prove to those twenty Democratic Representatives that he can serve a second term. And agree maybe all or some of them didn't have the opportunity to see what his condition was like. And since President Joe Biden remains adamant about staying in the race,even though he's trailing in most battleground states,do you think they will continue to urge him to step aside or start supporting and help him turn things around?.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchubby38
Looks like the infighting continues within the Democratic Party,with members of congress sending a letter to the DNC asking them to delay the virtual rollcall. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...ion-rcna162164
Here's a non-paywalled article on a similar theme. Not only has his inner circle been shielding Biden from public scrutiny, but it seems they may have been shielding him from views or advice they thought we wouldn't want to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchubby38
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/0...ircle-00166160
I think there were signs that he had cognitive problems before the debate. Many people gave him the benefit of the doubt because the evidence was a bit mixed and they didn't want to help Trump. After the debate, most people joined the dots and the pattern became clear. Perhaps they should have looked more critically beforehand.
https://www.vox.com/politics/358877/...media-coverage
That said, it's absurd to shift the primary blame from Biden and his inner circle, who were obviously best placed to know. If these Congress members had raised concerns before the primaries it would have been futile. They would have been derided and dismissed, just as Dean Phillips was.
From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance Biden might drop out by end of the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0
Completely Agree. The writing is on the wall for his campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchubby38
They've lined up all the big guns. In a parliamentary system, he'd be gone already.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchubby38
https://www.vox.com/politics/361597/...pelosi-schumer
I watched the debate and thought he sounded awful. The only thing that made me hesitant at first about him going is that he is very likeable and Democrats have frequently vetted talented politicians who are accomplished and bright and who people can't relate to. There was a certain amount of stumbling and gaffe making that was endearing. And he has in the past had choppy performances and then uncharacteristically strong ones in public. He has passed the point of no return though, where the bright days aren't bright enough, and the days where he sounds cloudy and confused predominate.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
I think the Democrats will need to put Kamala Harris first. The Bernie left like to make fun of her, the right wing doesn't like her, but I consider her likeable and capable. I don't care if she's told the same story about what is, unburdened by what has been (if you haven't seen the montages you can look them up)....who cares if she has this same peculiar line in a bunch of speeches. She's not the first and it's totally irrelevant.
BTW, what I mean about talented Democratic politicians I think is exemplified by Pete Buttigieg. No, he doesn't have a ton of experience. He's also gay and married to a man (which is preferable given his preference). He's sharp as a tack. Now, that doesn't mean people have to agree with every policy opinion he has, but he is the type of capable politician who really doesn't have a big base. People accuse him of being careerists and lob all sorts of attacks on his family. Democrats have had trouble nominating the most qualified people bc well, people are superficial. It's so easy to demonize someone and turn them into a joke (see Howard Dean). Instead, we end up with a guy with diminished and diminishing cognitive faculties, who has always had a fighting spirit and open personality. But we don't have a culture where we can necessarily choose someone who will be a great leader and nominate them knowing that the public will fall in line....
I haven't seen a lot of her, but some of the dislike does not seem to be rationally-based, as with Hillary Clinton. I recall a successful politician who used the line "Yes, we can" a lot, so that can't be a substantive objection. Incidentally, he wasn't experienced either.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
The more substantive objection is that she did poorly in the primaries last time. She probably wouldn't be first choice if they were starting from scratch, but I can see the argument that she might be the only feasible option at this stage.
Anyway, if Biden is refusing to stand down because he doesn't think KH is electable that's really on him: for not allowing an orderly process to find the best successor and for choosing her as VP (especially when he says he wasn't originally intending to run again). Even if he wasn't so bad a year ago, it was still a poor decision in risk assessment terms.
The only person that should replace President Joe Biden at the top of ticket in the upcoming election,if he decides to step aside,is the current sitting Vice President Kamala Harris,who will energize the democratic base and voters and is more than qualified to be president. No other potential candidate even comes close. And she will mop the floor with Donald Trump in a public debate,because she will fact check and not let him get away with all the lies he tells every time he opens his mouth.
Yes, it was during that primary season that a lot of people started to take her less seriously. I'm not sure what happened or if she had a number of bad debate performances. I can't comment much about how she'll do except to say that I think there is unlikely to be an orderly process to choose a successor and she therefore would seem to be next in line based on the VPs role during presidential administrations.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
Not to harp on Biden's decline and why he didn't stand down but I would guess that when people get to a certain age, they know they have suffered cognitive decline in some respects and have learned how to work around it. It's possible that the creeping deficits don't matter that much for overall performance in a job, but reach a critical mass where the person seems, on the whole, decrepit. And this is exactly where they lose insight into why it's a problem.
And it's interesting that we don't have a good measure of what kind of loss of performance matters and what doesn't. I'm somewhat interested in this subject, but we see it with baseball players and tennis players in their late 30s. In sports that demand elite reflexes, the best of all time can suddenly find themselves unable to compete with the top 50 or 100. Certainly other activities don't demand peak reflexes or physical endurance, but all sorts of cognitive parameters age at different rates and matter to different degrees depending upon what one is doing. Perhaps the wisdom of a statesman can withstand losses of short-term memory, if experience and judgment become more important. These too, can be eroded in time.
I should probably say temperance and judgment. But I'm curious what happens now. I did not listen to Trump's speech but I heard in real time from people I trust that it was a shitshow. I'm also curious whether people think Biden will end up stepping down. Not whether he should (seems to be a lot of agreement on that) but whether he eventually will.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
Hard to say. Logically, politicians should bow out when they've clearly lost the confidence of their own party, but many convince themselves they are indispensable and try to hang on. He may dig in out of resentment at people trying to force him out (apparently, he has a grudge against Obama for persuading him not to run in 2016). The other thing is that the only way he can avoid a humiliating end to his career is to pull off an unlikely win, so he might think a 20-30% chance is still worth taking. It's a testament to Trump's weaknesses that the polls haven't been even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
What an appalling situation you are in. One candidate who struggles to complete sentences versus another who completes way too many sentences that are full of deranged nonsense. Once candidate who is deflated versus another who is ridiculously over-inflated.
One candidate whose party has lost faith in him versus another whose party has made him a demigod. The personality cult has gone off the charts since the shooting.
Is everybody happy now?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...ace-rcna159867
And right on cue,Donald Trump and his enablers in Congress and the US Senate are celebrating that President Joe Biden decided to step down. And now are hurling nasty attacks at Kamala Harris.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
You were right. President Joe Biden announced he is stepping down from his reelection campaign,and endorsed. Vice President Kamala Harris,and she is the right choose to replace him at the top of the ticket,nobody else is. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...tes-rcna162646Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchubby38
I am in a group chat where everyone thinks media bullies pushed biden out. The problem with that argument is that while there may be some bad faith bullies, there were also numerous people close to him that saw something and felt they couldn't remain quiet. And when these people starting talking to each other, the ball got rolling. And it took a while. But Obama is not saying something he doesn't believe bc donors want Joe out...or out of pettiness or mean-spiritedness. There were just too many people who must have been acting in good faith unless everyone is a liar or fraud. Too many people with diverse interests, of differing proximity to Biden, and without any obvious character problems.
There's also the possibility that he had a neurological exam to clear himself and received a diagnosis such as Parkinson's. I know that is speculation, but that's all I'm claiming it is. There were too many people telling him to drop out for it to have been a politically motivated "coup" as some melodramatic people would put it. And too many loyal to him as a human being, but not willing to remain quiet if they thought he showed signs of deterioration. We'll see what happens from here.
Yet the other side thinks these same media were in a conspiracy to cover up his condition. These people are almost like mirror images of each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
This episode has been like a litmus test for whether people are blind partisans or evidence-based analysts who are worth reading. Fortunately, all the people whose opinions I follow came out and said he should step down after the debate.
It looks like people in his circle finally convinced him that he couldn't win and it was better to go now.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/0...d-out-00170106
"When the campaign commissioned new battleground polling over the last week, it was the first time they had done surveys in some key states in more than two months, according to two people familiar with the surveys. And the numbers were grim, showing Biden not just trailing in all six critical swing states but collapsing in places like Virginia and New Mexico where Democrats had not planned on needing to spend massive resources to win.
With that knowledge and the awareness that more party elders, including more of his former Senate colleagues, would pile on the public pressure campaign, a sudden exit offered the president his best chance to make it appear that the decision came on his own terms. It was a face-saving move of high importance to Jill Biden, who, according to people familiar with recent conversations, was adamant that her husband’s dignity be preserved."
So, are any of the Democrats going to apologize to Dean Phillips?
If President Biden admits he has come to the end why remain in office? Should he resign with immediate effect?
The dignity with which he resigns his office bears comparison with the arrogance and lies of a convicted criminal who should also withdraw, from the Republican Party.
I met an American here in Germany who told me he thinks the US is deeply sexist and fears Harris will lose on that issue alone. I disagree, and on one level a younger, smarter candidate who knows more about the law than Trump, and should be able to cut his lies to shreds, could still win through.
Young vs old. Truth vs lies. The future vs the past.
is Harris what Americans want, in so divided and polarised a country?
i think most of us expected the unexpected this time around, and we got it. But we still don’t know what the next three months will produce.
Why should he? No candidate is compelled by law to run for a second term. That's ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
Competence is the factor at work. Can he manage for the next 6 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
Ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by StavrosCompetence is the factor at work. Can he manage for the next 6 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
I understand the reasoning but I think that not running again when he is the incumbent shows the right amount of dignity. To resign his presidency would be to say that he is no longer cognitively fit to make the decisions of the chief executive and I think he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
I acknowledge he has aged and deteriorated but the skills of running a campaign and convincing people you are ready to take on a full term are different from the skills necessary to close out nearly four years of work you've done.
I personally believe that if he were in a room being briefed about foreign intelligence matters that he would be more than capable of parsing what is important and making sound decisions. I actually think he would do it better than Donald Trump would, because it would be a matter of faithfully listening to what others have to say and understanding the main point. These are things Donald Trump, for instance, has shown no ability to do at his best. I do not think he is the person you want communicating a new vision or starting a campaign that is going to inspire voters. But I really do think that he is capable of carrying out the duties he was elected to perform.
You never saw any media saying it? Not about my judgment, but theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzcarraldoQuote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
You're the one asking now. I mainly see Republicans saying it. Biden essentially announced his retirement at the end of the term. People get to announce retirement dates in advance of actual retirement. He didn't want to quit the campaign, but it became obvious he would receive no support from his party, so there was no point in continuing. With the party's abandonment, he truly had no chance of defeating Trump.Quote:
Originally Posted by StavrosQuote:
Originally Posted by Fitzcarraldo
And yes, you can still nag and ask, "But is he still fit for office?" You can ask that about every president constantly, and if you get enough traction, maybe something will happen. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
Also, if he can't finish his term, the vice president becomes president. There's no need to add drama.
The reason why President Joe Biden hasn't resigned from office,is because he wants to finish the reminder of his term and help Vice President Kamala Harris defeat Donald Trump. And i think that she is what most americans want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros