Peaceful resolution - Iran Nukes

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Originally Posted by plainBob

LMAO... you cant make Israel stop anything. Here is a people that have been murdered for well over 2000yrs. They got blamed for everything from the Black Death to witchcraft. Not 61 years ago close to if not 6 million jews were killed by hitler. Now plz tell me how you are going to tell a people that were dam near exterminated to stop protecting themselfs. And as for the plo and other middle east grps, I'll back the jews over them anyday, main because it was the israel's land before the palestinian's. Make them stop lol thats like telling a cornered animal to lay down not goin to happen.

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Nobody doubts for a minute the existance of a Jewish people in the region of Egypt, Judea, modern day Jordan and Iraq. The problem is making the case that they controlled a part of that real estate over any lenghthy historical time. The name Palistinian is a more modern term used to describe a people who have been in that area at the same time as the Jews. Those people have gone under numerous name changes as have certain geographical areas have had name changes.

If you take the time to look at the link provided from Israel .org I've provided, it gives one pause to think that in the total 4000 yr. presence of Jewish people in the Middle East, you can plainly see those territories were controlled by any number of rulers, for example to Assyrians, Babalonians, Romans, Turks, Attila the Hun, Napolean, the British and a bunch more I left out. So here you have a situation that for thousands of yrs. the Jewish people SHARED the region with all the other tribes, cultures etc., but not really CONTROLLING the specific area in question Israel/Palistine for any appreciable time period.

In the 1920's under British rule, and persecution in Europe and Asia, The Brits allowed immigration back to the Middle East. In the next 20 or so yrs., under a terrorism effort by militant Jews, ( the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jeruselum killing 90, followed by the bombing of the railway station and many other attacks) the Brits threw up their hands and went to the United Nations and dumped it there lap. Finally, a vote was taken in 1948, and when Harry Truman reluctantly gave his blessing and the word Palestine was erased from the map and Israel replaced it. Check out the early history of the area in this link:

http://www.israel.org/MFA/Facts+Abou...l-+History.htm

Looking at the link you posted i see, 1929 Hebron Jews massacred by Arab militants,1936-39 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants , 1948 End of British Mandate (14 May)
State of Israel proclaimed (14 May).
Israel invaded by five Arab states (15 May)
War of Independence (May 1948-July 1949)
Israel Defense Forces (IDF) established ,1967 Six-Day War, Jerusalem reunited,1968-70 Egypt's War of Attrition against Israel ,1973 Yom Kippur War , to name a few i saw on the link. I'm not saying noone else controlled that land. What i'm saying is that even after those kingdoms faded into dust the jews still lived there and those that were spread across the eath still see it as thier home. Much like greeks see Greece as theirs or germans look to Germany. In war its the winner that rights the history. And now its the Isrealies that reclaim thier motherland. As for jewish terrorists i looked and did not see that, link where you found that at i'd like to see it. The majority of hate i see comes from the middleeast. And it is sad that the jews still seem to be the targets. And how can you have peace with with a man or counrty that claims the holocaust was not real or that the attacks on the world trade center were carried out by the jews. Isreal is now like the kid in highschool that got picked on too much, he is going to blow and strike back. And may the gods have mercy on those that get in his way.

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Originally Posted by plainBob

Looking at the link you posted i see, 1929 Hebron Jews massacred by Arab militants,1936-39 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants , 1948 End of British Mandate (14 May)
State of Israel proclaimed (14 May).
Israel invaded by five Arab states (15 May)
War of Independence (May 1948-July 1949)
Israel Defense Forces (IDF) established ,1967 Six-Day War, Jerusalem reunited,1968-70 Egypt's War of Attrition against Israel ,1973 Yom Kippur War , to name a few i saw on the link. I'm not saying noone else controlled that land. What i'm saying is that even after those kingdoms faded into dust the jews still lived there and those that were spread across the eath still see it as thier home. Much like greeks see Greece as theirs or germans look to Germany. In war its the winner that rights the history. And now its the Isrealies that reclaim thier motherland. As for jewish terrorists i looked and did not see that, link where you found that at i'd like to see it. The majority of hate i see comes from the middleeast. And it is sad that the jews still seem to be the targets. And how can you have peace with with a man or counrty that claims the holocaust was not real or that the attacks on the world trade center were carried out by the jews. Isreal is now like the kid in highschool that got picked on too much, he is going to blow and strike back. And may the gods have mercy on those that get in his way.

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Listen, I gave you a brief outline of the history of the region over a 4000 yr. history. Of course their was retaliation from the Palestinians during the Jewish terror attacks in the 1920-1948 period. You won't find anything from an Israeli web site about Jewish terrorists. If you google such things as King David Hotel bombing, Stern Gang, Irgun fighters, you will learn something you didn't know.

The motivation for the bombing of the hotel was that a British delegation was staying there. They were going to put on the table a quota system of allowing a certain number of Jews into Palestine, with a limit on the total. Hence, the Jews said fuck this shit, and blew the joint up.

I didn't bother covering the history after '48. What is the point? THE QUESTION OF THE DAY WAS WHOSE LAND IS IT ANYWAY? And all I'm saying is it's very debatable it belongs to the Jews, given the entire history of controll of the land.

Your analogy of the kid in school is quite amusing, considering the US involvement after '48 made it possible for Israel to survive. Well over 100 billion in aid since then, mostly military hardware, including nukes.

Here's a link to the hotel bombing, you can find many other sites, including British ones with pics of headlines in daily papers back the. You might even google "Jewish terrorists" and have a field day with those results.

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

I always have a fieldday on the net. Its where you find and meet interesting new people and facts you never knew before. 8)

Here is something interesting.

What was the Egyptian purchase of Soviet arms in 1955?
In 1955 the first Egyptian-Soviet arms deal took place, disguised as a Egyptian-Czech transaction, an event which had a seriously destabilizing impact on the regional arms race. Egypt was able to purchase some two hundred tanks and other weapons after which the Tripartite Agreement of 1949 collapsed. France, motivated to help Israel by Egypt's support of Algerian rebels, sold about two hundred tanks to Israel.

The Egyptian-Czech arms deal of 1955 signalled the gradual opening up of the whole Soviet arsenal first to Egypt and subsequently also to Syria and to Iraq. Huge arms deals between the oil-producing states particularly Saudi Arabia - and the US have resulted in a flood of arms, which Israel had to take into account, in spite of American assurances that they were not intended for use against Israel. France, which at one time had been Israel's main, indeed only, supplier of military hardware, has meanwhile sold equivalent, or more modern equipment, to certain Arab states including Iraq.

Immediately after Nasser made his 1955 arms deal, Israel appealed to the United States — not for a gift of arms, but for the right to purchase them. The U.S. recognized the need to maintain an arms balance, but it referred Israel to France and other European suppliers. It was not until 1962 that the United States agreed to sell Israel its first significant American system, the HAWK anti-aircraft missile.

Another.

What did the Arabs do about Jordan's annexation of the parts of Palestine they captured?
In April 1950, Jordan annexed eastern Jerusalem (dividing the city for the first time in its history) and the "West Bank" areas in historical Judea and Samaria that Trans-Jordan had occupied by military force in 1948 (Jordan changed its name to Trans-Jordan in April 1949). On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a Resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conquerer. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did.

After the 1948 War for Independence and the Jordanian takeover, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, becoming part of Jordan's political system. Across the barbed wire that marked the dividing line, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. There was no outcry of claims of "Palestinian" identity being submerged by Jordan.


The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim.

The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

And agin.

What happened to Jewish Holy Sites and places of worship in lands controlled by the Arabs?
On May 28, 1948 the Arab Legion completed the capture of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, the site of numerous ancient synagogues and the Western Wall of the Temple, destroyed by the Romans in the year 70 AD. These were and remain the holiest sites in the Jewish religion.

After the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem was captured, the destruction, desecration and systematic looting of Jewish sites began and continued. 57 ancient synagogues (the oldest dated to the 13th century), libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The city's foremost Jewish shrine, the Western Wall, became a slum. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This condition continued until Jordan lost control of Jerusalem in June 1967.

On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement.

The Hurva Synagogue, attributed to Rabbi Moses Ben Nahman (Ramban), was the main synagogue in Jerusalem in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (and possibly much earlier), until the Ottomans closed it in 1589 because of Muslim incitement. It was burned by Arabs in 1721 (Hurva = destruction in Hebrew), but again rebuilt by Zionists in the 19th century, becoming the most prominent synagogue on the Jerusalem skyline. For that reason, when it was captured by the Arab Legion during the battle for Old Jerusalem in 1948, they dynamited it to show that they controlled the Jewish Quarter. When the Jews in New Jerusalem saw the Hurva burning, they knew that Jewish life in the Quarter had ended (again).

Access to the Holy Sites
When the 1948 war ended, and negotiations began, the Israeli representatives emphasized regaining access to Jewish Jerusalem. Article VIII of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement, signed on April 3, 1949, called for the establishment of a Special Committee:

... composed of two representatives of each Party for the purpose of formulating agreed plans" including "free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
Hopes were high that Jews might visit the Western Wall for Passover 1949, but the Jordanians violated the Armistice Agreement. These clauses were never honored. Promises continued to be made, and Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Arab Legion, pledged that:

Jerusalem's Arab and Jewish populations would be two separate cities with free trade and exchange between each other. The Arabs would be perfectly willing to allow the Jews to have access to their shrines, notably the Wailing Wall, now inside the Arab-held Old City.
The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

During the Jordanian occupation of Hebron from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor -- despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city. Additionally, the Jordanian authorities and local residents undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate any evidence of the Jewish presence in the city. They razed the Jewish Quarter, desecrated the Jewish cemetery and built an animal pen on the ruins of the Avraham Avinu synagogue

Although there were numerous discussions of this issue, and Israeli complaints, the Jordanians refused to honor the agreement, and the UN did not pass any resolutions against this treatment of Jewish religious institutions.

Go to this site its full of interesting things.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

And even better one.

Are the West Bank and Gaza "occupied territories" as Palestinain Arabs assert?
As a result of the Six Day War, Israel gained all of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Sinai, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank (historically known as Judea and Samaria). Palestinian Arabs often insist on using the term "occupied territories" to describe these areas, usually connected to the assertion that they fall under the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. Yet, Palestinian spokesmen also speak about Israeli military action in Area A as an invasion, an infringement on Palestinian sovereignty. The use of both forms of terminology is a contradiction. If Israel "invaded Palestinian territories" in the present, then they cannot be regarded as "occupied"; however, if the territories are defined as "occupied," Israel cannot be "invading" them.

Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention:

... is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign.
In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states.

International jurists generally draw a distinction between situations of "aggressive conquest" and territorial disputes that arise after a war of self-defense. Former US State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case:

Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.
Israel only entered the West Bank in 1967 after repeated Jordanian artillery fire and ground movements across the previous armistice lines; additionally, Iraqi forces crossed Jordanian territory and were poised to enter the West Bank. Under such circumstances, even the United Nations rejected Soviet efforts to have Israel branded as the aggressor in the Six-Day War.

Regardless of how many times the Palestinian Arabs claim otherwise, Israel cannot be characterized as a "foreign occupier" with respect to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Fundamental sources of international legality decide the question in Israel's favor. The last international legal allocation of territory that includes what is today the West Bank and Gaza Strip occurred with the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine which recognized Jewish national rights in the whole of the Mandated territory, including the sector east of the Jordan River, almost 80% of the original Mandated territory, that was given to Palestinian Arabs and Emir Abdullah to create the country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). Moreover, the rights under the Mandate were preserved under the United Nations as well, according to Article 80 of the UN Charter, after the termination of the League of Nations in 1946.

It is important to observe that, from the time these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel in 1967, the territories were not refered to as "occupied" by the international community. Furthermore, the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called "Palestinians" as they are today; they were called Jordanians and Egyptians. (In fact, before Israel was founded Jews and Arabs alike who lived in the region were called Palestinians. The newspaper was the "Palestine Bulletin" and later the "Palestine Post" before becoming today's "Jerusalem Post", the Jewish-founded electric company was "Palestine Electric" and so on.) There was no call for "liberation" or "national rights" for the Arabs living there and no Palestinian nation was discussed.

No UN resolution requires Israel to withdraw unilaterally from the territories, nor do they forbid Israelis from going there to live. In particular, the often-misquoted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (and related Resolution 338) make no such demand or requirement. The demand that Israel stop creating "illegal settlements" is similarly baseless.

Under the Oslo Accords, the "peace process" started in 1991 at the Madrid Conference, Israel agreed to withdraw from the disputed territories and Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) was given control over land chosen so that more than ninety-nine percent of the Palestinian population lived under the jurisdiction of the PA. But the committment to Israel's security that was the backbone of the Oslo agreements was never honored by the PA and Israel was forced to periodically re-enter the ceded territory to quell terrorism. In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories.

Hell there was no palestin before Israel took over those areas.

Well PB, if your talking to me your too late. I've been to that site and dozens more, long long ago.(On a computer that is obsolete, where most of my bookmarks were left).

suffice it to say the entire area is very complex and messed up, mostly due to thousands of years of outside meddling. Agreed?

Very much so. But it still falls to the Stick Law. "He who has the biggest stick makes the law" and right now its Israel. But in fact its a mute point in time all go the way of empires, forgotten.

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Originally Posted by plainBob

Very much so. But it still falls to the Stick Law. "He who has the biggest stick makes the law" and right now its Israel. But in fact its a mute point in time all go the way of empires, forgotten.

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with all due respect..."The Stick Law"???? You just lost most of your credibilty with that nonsense!!! :smh

LOL i know but it sounded better that might makes right. 8)