An outsider watching the US health care debate

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by Rogers

http://www.ct.gov/AG/cwp/view.asp?a=2795&q=414284

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That's insane. What's the point of having insurance??

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What does that have to do with having (or not having) insurance?

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Meaning that those people paid shit loads of money into a system that's suppose to support them...but all of a sudden the insurance company can switch it's mind because of some guidelines? "Sorry we can't support you for THAT long". It's like paying a mafia boss for protection but he just kicks his heels up when someone advises him that it's not "prudent" to interfere.

See what I mean about government interference? At least the Gov. would say that shit's illegal. So glad I'm living here. And yes for those who get tired of hearing that...I'm fucking gloating. Deal with it.

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First off, those guidelines don't have anything to do with the insurance companies. Secondly, Canadians are subject to guidelines just as much as Americans. God help you if need a bone marrow transplant if you live in Canada and there is no matching donor. Canadian hospital do NOT do incomplete match transplants. Moreover, Canadian hospitals do not get enough funding to do all of the bone marrow transplants that are indicated.

Every system has its own drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel

There isn't a premium associated with the purchase of food. Nor is the national debt linked directly to expenditures made on food.

Also, ever heard of something called food stamps?? There are numerous federal programs available to feed those who cannot feed themselves.

When the profit motive is the driving force behind medical care, the consumer ultimately suffers.

I'm not a marxist in the least, but unfettered, unbridled capitalism as a social organizing principle is the enemy of democracies and left unchecked, will ultimately destroy it.

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Food stamps? Ever heard of Medicaid (about a third of the so-called uninsured in America are eligible but just haven't applied)? Most hospitals also take charity cases.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

but all of a sudden the insurance company can switch it's mind because of some guidelines?

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Oh come on, like the gov plans are immune to that.

You're from Canada, surely you remember when Ontario's NHS had to strip its eye & dental coverage because it "wasn't in the budget"?

Gov health care is ALREADY the first thing to get cut whenever our budget has problems. Just look at all the crap we did to the VA, closing hospitals left and right, to pay for the war in iraq (brillant idea, wait until we're in no less than two wars, whilst our largest population of veterans are in retirement, and start closing veterans hospitals all over the country!). Then there was that disaster known as Bush's medicare prescription drug reform...

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Where are you getting this idea that they closed VA hospitals 'left and right'? The only thing I can find is that they were proposing closing 7 hospitals.

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Originally Posted by tao1kiku

Jay you sure know how to stir up a hornets nest! Laughing

Being another Cdn here, I think of it this way. If I break my leg, I don't pay for x-rays, cast, hospitalization. If I need 18hrs of brain surgery, it's done, no cost. If I have a heart attack and need a bypass, it's done, no charge. If I had a son or daughter who had a temp of 105 at 4am on Christmas eve and needed emergency care, cost = $0.00.

Thus I ask my American bretheren - is this something that every American can also lay claim to? This is not a point to gloat - it is a point to be made for healthcare - DO YOU as citizen of one of the richest countries in the world, DO YOU, regardless of financial means and employment have this level of NO COST care? Again, REGARDLESS of financial means? Even the poorest persons in your country?

Can you say, that every American citizen can have brain surgery or a heart bypass or cancer treatment at no cost? Is this a right of every American Citizen? Or is it just for those who can afford it?

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It is laughable that you think you get these things at no cost. You pay for them with your taxes.

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by adriannelasvegas

If the Obomination of health care does happen a lot of sick Canadians who come to the U.S. for proper health care are going to die.

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Yes because all Canadians head down to the States at the first sign of trouble.

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You cannot get IL-2 in Ontario. If you need it, they send you to the US. You cannot get incomplete match bone marrow transplants in Canada. If your province will pay for it, they send you to the US.

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

It is laughable that you think you get these things at no cost. You pay for them with your taxes.

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It is laughable that you keep bringing it up when I think we've established we KNOW we pay through taxes. You still don't get the point. 2 hospital visits and a dermatologist visit...and I didn't have to pay out of pocket during those visits. I'm saying I've BEEN paying part of my taxes for my life and it's there when I need it. Understand now?

As for the "no healthcare system is perfect". I never said it was perfect...but a hell of a lot better than morgtaging your home for medical bills isn't it?

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by Jericho

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by Jericho

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

I'm just not in favor of trotting out false or misleading data to get there.

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Ya mean like:

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Those countries rely on the US to do their research in pharmaceuticals.

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? :?

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That is neither false nor misleading.

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No, of course it isn't.
Nowhere else in the world is doing cutting edge medical research. :roll:

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Compare the percentage of research.

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The stage is your...Please...Enlighten us.

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Originally Posted by jaycanuck

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

It is laughable that you think you get these things at no cost. You pay for them with your taxes.

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It is laughable that you keep bringing it up when I think we've established we KNOW we pay through taxes. You still don't get the point. 2 hospital visits and a dermatologist visit...and I didn't have to pay out of pocket during those visits. I'm saying I've BEEN paying part of my taxes for my life and it's there when I need it. Understand now?

As for the "no healthcare system is perfect". I never said it was perfect...but a hell of a lot better than morgtaging your home for medical bills isn't it?

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Paying: It is obvious that you get it, but not so obvious that the poster I was responding to gets it. Understand now?

I would rather mortgage my home than be told that the government is out of money for the operation I need - as bone marrow transplant patients in Ontario are told at the end of the Fiscal Year (see article I linked to earlier).

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Originally Posted by Jericho

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by Jericho

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

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Originally Posted by Jericho

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

I'm just not in favor of trotting out false or misleading data to get there.

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Ya mean like:

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Those countries rely on the US to do their research in pharmaceuticals.

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? :?

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That is neither false nor misleading.

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No, of course it isn't.
Nowhere else in the world is doing cutting edge medical research. :roll:

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Compare the percentage of research.

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The stage is your...Please...Enlighten us.

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http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...tract/25/2/452

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Originally Posted by duplicatt

Moreover, Canadian hospitals do not get enough funding to do all of the bone marrow transplants that are indicated.

Every system has its own drawbacks.

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You're right...we don't get enough funding. But if you lived here in the 90s you would know that that's the fault of a Conservative government who slashed more than just health care. We're still trying to fix his mess. Unfortunately he didn't listen to his voters.

According to an article I found Ontario performs 70 out of the 120 surgeries per year that need to be performed. Considering each surgery is between $200,000 - $500,000 that's pretty good. And as I said before, I would be willing to pay a lot more tax to make sure that that number of surgeries is bumped up. Read back a bit...you'd know that.

Although in the States you can go from state to state to get shorter wait lists, the fact is you still have wait lists in the States. It's 16,000 people for a liver transplant? In both cases (liver and bone marrow) the major issue is donations.

In short, the ability for any Canadian to go to a hospital for treatment any time in his life (here it comes..) FREE OF CHARGE (i'll wait for the..."you pay taxes, it's not free") is totally worth the cost in taxes.