Why do some tgirls who are obviously way too masculine......

I am unclear as to how I view gender dysphoria, I took a bunch of psych classes in school - if you cut the fat it is thinking that you are something that you are not - no different to if someone approached me and said they are a dragon, they are clearly not a dragon but felt that they were born that way. Please see exhibit one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Garrison's_Fancy_New_Vagina
They get it, until I see genetic proof that gender dysphoria is a real thing not an escape capsule, suck it up and deal with the hand life has dealt you. If you want to transition, great, but view it as an entirely cosmetic procedure.

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Originally Posted by southerncalisurfer

I am unclear as to how I view gender dysphoria, I took a bunch of psych classes in school - if you cut the fat it is thinking that you are something that you are not - no different to if someone approached me and said they are a dragon, they are clearly not a dragon but felt that they were born that way. Please see exhibit one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Garrison's_Fancy_New_Vagina
They get it, until I see genetic proof that gender dysphoria is a real thing not an escape capsule, suck it up and deal with the hand life has dealt you. If you want to transition, great, but view it as an entirely cosmetic procedure.

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I found that south park episode interesting given that SRS (well, the version of it that was used in the 50s) was developed by the nazis in WW2 to try to "cure homosexuals" by forcefully changing their sex. The really crazy ones associated with that thought that with enough science it would lead to turning gay guys into fertile straight women (whole thing was a complete failure). There is enough evidence out there that you can't just forcefully change someone's gender.

However, there is some evidence (not a lot, but some) that gid is a developmental, biologically triggered condition. What do you consider genetic proof, DNA? I kinda doubt dna has anything to do with it.

The hormone imbalance theory where fetuses get their brains "wired wrong" sounds promising but not a lot of work has been done in researching it because no one cares about trans issues or trans science except people in the community. It is easy enough to use animals to show that bombarding developing animals with the opposite sex hormone will cause developmental consequences. I.e. for a dog whether they squat or lift a leg in pissing is defined by instinct but hormones triggers which of the two the dog will end up using, if you've raised dogs you'd know how the male ones squat like the girls until their hormone levels start to spike. There are differences between this and a human, mainly since the psyc and sociology fields believe there is no such thing as an instinct in humans. But if you have even an education in these fields as electives you should already know that.

There have been a few studies, over in Europe indicating that MtFs have the same brains as GGs structurally speaking (if you're a psyc major you'll know all about how male and female brains differ so I'll spare those details). But again I wouldn't call those tiny, obscure studies to be a smoking gun because so lil has been done on that subject.

The reason why transitioning is the only close to being successful, recongitzed treatment for GID is because there is so much evidence out there (presently or historically) that people with the condition are more functional in society transitioned than not- which says a lot given the discriminatory practices out there. It isn't hard to find cases where people could not transition, or made choices prohibiting their transition, and killed themselves as a result. In the end all that the psy world cares about is this issue of quality of life & societal function. If transitioning helps with either (or both) then it is kinda a no brainer to use it as a treatment option. Really I fail to see where the big deal is here...

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Originally Posted by southerncalisurfer

I am unclear as to how I view gender dysphoria, I took a bunch of psych classes in school - if you cut the fat it is thinking that you are something that you are not - no different to if someone approached me and said they are a dragon, they are clearly not a dragon but felt that they were born that way. Please see exhibit one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Garrison's_Fancy_New_Vagina
They get it, until I see genetic proof that gender dysphoria is a real thing not an escape capsule, suck it up and deal with the hand life has dealt you. If you want to transition, great, but view it as an entirely cosmetic procedure.

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With all due respect, that makes no sense at all. Personally, I am repulsed by the terms dysphoria and disorder (GID) because it implies that there is something wrong, or unbalanced, with changing genders. Fact is, it's as good as anything else one chooses to do with their lives.

The issue here was never how one perceives oneself, we all seem to generally agree that within each TS resides the spirit and self-identity as a woman. So to say transition is merely cosmetic is wrong because attached to the enhancements/augmentations/development are the feelings. We are simply arriving where we feel.

The pivotal argument here is where does personal will fit into all of this and does society play a role in thwarting/supporting our efforts? A peripheral argument is at what point does passability and authenticity define what society will or won't accept? And a further peripheral argument, which was entirely distorted and miscomprehended, is how does one feel personally about passability and at what point could it become a determining factor in one's individual decision?

We all agree we are doing this for ourselves, and it is ludicrous, given the effort, pain, expense and emotional burden for anyone to do this for any other other reason. We don't do it because it turns us on, we don't do it because it turns others on. It is self-expression of self-identity.

Points taken.

Sarah - I dabbled in psych but am bio now. What you said is noted, but does emphasise the point that we just do not know!

Melissa- As tough as it sounds, yes something went wrong when someone born male thinks that they are female, there is no debate there, something went wrong, and you cannot debate that. How we treat it is up to us. (And I am not even opening the nature.nurture debate right now)

so here is the kicker:

Should we put our efforts towards:

1. Making current TS people more accepted

2. Looking into our genetics and making sure kids are born M or F (In retrospect, would you have not wanted that that you parents could have made that in womb?)

Uh oh, eugenics :(

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Originally Posted by melissacarter

Personally, I am repulsed by the terms dysphoria and disorder (GID) because it implies that there is something wrong, or unbalanced, with changing genders. Fact is, it's as good as anything else one chooses to do with their lives.

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Actually it makes a lot of sense really. There are so many people who repeatedly try to transition as if it were an uncontrollable compulsion, and that is enough in my eyes to see it as something worthy of placing in the textbooks. But just because it is in the medical world doesn't mean it's a bad thing... if being in the text books was the only gauge in dictating if a characteristic is good or bad, then we'd still be practicing eugenics (on general terms- duh transitioning is sterilizing and so eugenics really doesn't apply to GID specifics).

Medical, especially psychological science is all about societal function and quality of life. If a treatment (regardless what it is, or what the condition is) improves a patient's state of existence in terms of these two issues then yes, the treatment is a medical necessity under most uses of the term. Body dysphoria isn't exclusive to GID patients after all, so we're not the only ones where this conversation is relevant.

Traditionally "elective" procedures like implants are not seen by the medical world, or even politicians as being elective when it is being used for situations where quality of life plays a large role. What is elective plastic surgery to one person is medically necessary "reconstructive surgery" for someone else, even if it is the exact same procedure. Implants are typically thought of as elective, and yet few people will use the "elective" term in place of "reconstructive" if we're talking about a GG who has lost a breast due to cancer.

Very few people define medical necessary as "a procedure required for the patient to survive"- look at the long list of shit insurance companies will pay for that isn't going to cause someone to die if going without it (prescription strength athletes foot ointment for instance, fixing ingrown toenails, or Viagra).

The only reason why GID is such a big deal, that people get so heated about is because of the religious factions that try to make it look like it is the end of civilization. When the fundies weren't really mobilized on the issue it was NOT A BIG ISSUE AT ALL. Go back and look at some of the pre1960 media coverage GID has gotten (incl GID cases before the medical conditions' names were even coined). Even then it was a sensationalized topic to talk about, I can recall reading a year or so back an article from one of those popular science magazines from the 30s that was talking about an "experimental sex change" in Britain and posed questions on whether the patient was really male or female now. But that was the scope of the article, there was none of this "this is taboo/wrong/self destructive behavior" or any of that other crap, and likewise until GID became a spotlight issue for the religious types, postop marriage to guys wasn't even a big deal in the United States, certainly not to the point where it is today where these factions want the definition of marriage changed to be "one XX girl and one XY man"

Yet today, you can (as in its possible) fully transition outside of SRS, using the medical protocols, and not have to deal with gatekeepers, letters and all those other hoops.... going and getting implants, ffs, and all these other barely reversible procedures to the point of not being able to pass as a guy- and no one bats an eye (yes this is an oversimplification). Yet as soon as anything comes close to touching the genitals (orchi, srs, etc) oh look out- time for all these letters, irrelevant therapy sessions, and a poorly defined, failed concept of RLE. :roll:

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We all agree we are doing this for ourselves, and it is ludicrous, given the effort, pain, expense and emotional burden for anyone to do this for any other other reason. We don't do it because it turns us on, we don't do it because it turns others on.

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What about the people who claim that they ARE doing it for sexual fetish reasons? There was one person in this thread who said they were AG.

They could have been lying I suppose, but they aren't the only one in this board to have made that claim.

For GID patients I agree with you, it isn't out of some kind of sexual interest, but IF AG really exists, then there is a chance for AG patients, transitioning is for other reasons.

I love you

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Originally Posted by josue

even attempt to transition? i think the only way a tranny can look good is if they have a small frame to begin with. i see these broad man-shouldered trannys who think they're gonna look good and pass as women when i can do nothing but smh. it's like they think because some small framed petite tranny can pass they can too. they're just deluding themselves. i wont name any names, but they just ain't passable and never will because they got a man's bone structure. Anybody else agree/ disagree?

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Its not really about being able to pass its about living with your gender and feeling comfortable.
These girls dont feel comfortable being men.
So even when they transition if they dont pass 100 percent its ok because they feel MORE comfortable than before.

Nice post kiss ass

Anyhow, I think that the main problem that is avoided on this site is why so-called straight guys are into TS's?

I read a few papers about this but they all seem to boil down to repressed homosexual tendencies - at least the girls here are "man" enough to face their demons.

The other group is those on the outskirts of sexuality - regular sex gets boring so they are always looking for the next level.

Where do you lie?

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Originally Posted by SarahG

But just because it is in the medical world doesn't mean it's a bad thing...

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That is my point. Look at transitioning from afar, not in psychological or medical terms but in philosophical terms. Think in terms of personal purpose and a search for meaning. Then ask the question we must all ask ourselves: what am I going to do with my life? In this context, a male transitioning to female is as good as any other decision reached. In fact, any decision made, as long as it does not hurt others or yourself, and has some element of purpose is a good decision. In this way transitioning is as valid as being an astronaut or a doctor. Equal in purpose, equal in reward, equal in personal fullfillment.

Evolution would disagree with you, Melissa, and evolution is a beautiful thing